Home › Forum Online Discussion › Philosophy › How Buddhist “No-Self” Theory Helps Alchemcal Process
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September 5, 2006 at 9:07 am #17610Michael WinnKeymaster
While I have made it clear that cosmologically and practically in terms of higher cultivation goals I completely reject the Buddhist metaphysical doctrine of the Denail of Selfhood as ultimately a denial of creative Free Will, I want to point out that many have benefited from the Buddhist doctrine in a practical way.
How?
Because:
1. the physical plane is so contracted, the human mind easily resonates with and is overwhelmed/seduced into accepting that state of sensory contraction as its only reality.
2. to get a stuck human mind to shift, sometimes it is a good strategy to completely deny its reality, i.e. use a “shock” tactic. This shock can occurs due to the challenge of a Self trying to wrap itself around Non-Self. This can cause it to shift half-way (even though it is impossible for the Self to experience anything other than its own Self-essence, ie. go “all the way”).
3. If this half way shift opens the human self to experiencing the seeming flow of “selves” in each moment, or is integrated with Process type of practices (ranging from qigong & inner alchemy to Process psychology), then the opening that occurs due to the shock of trying to embrace the Buddhist Denial of Self will have served a pivotal purpose. Thus someone stuck in a pattern of “suffering”/contraction, if they can temporarily believe that their self is not real, they can feel empowered to let go of the pattern of suffering.
It doesn’t make the doctrine of the Denial of SElfhood true or give any inherency to Emptiness metaphysics, it should simply be seen as a tactic that can be effective for some people.
The problem with the Buddhist doctrines comes (MHO) from clinging to the belief in Emptiness or Illusion of Self as absolute, as the shock therapy value can be taken to excess, and can eventually undermine one’s raison d’etre in the post natal world.
Several folks have posted cases of people who got lost in Emptiness or related their own experience as being weakened by it.
I had a friend and student who constantly wrote Emptiness inspired poetry. she was/is a wonderful person, but she had chronic health problems and was always so skinny I was concerned she would simply blow away.
She was always letting go of everything even while embracing their passing beauty – but had trouble not only accumulating body weight, but also trouble accumulating wealth. Emptiness was destroying her ground.She asked me for advice on her condition. I told her: eliminate the word Emptiness from your vocabulary. Replace it with “Openness” or “Divine Receptivity”. Rewrite all your poems, I suggested. Start focusing on your positive/substantial ground. She said she would try it.
When I met her a year later, she had gained weight, received unexpected sources of income, was teaching more qigong, and overall, was glowing and healthy.
I think she was too yin to take on Emptiness as a strategy for development.
I think Emptiness works best for excess yang male types, who need a yin practice of doing nothing to balance out all their success achievement in the outer world. Chan can offer that for them, especially if they do not have a natural yin force in their daily life, i.e. a female partner. In this case Emptiness practice is really yin practice, getting more yin from enforced periods of “doing nothing”, internally or externally.
So, to make up an example, if you’ve been practicing a martial art for eight hours a day for ten years, to just sit and do nothing might feel like sudden enlightenment. You’ve got so much energetic momentun, but weren’t spending enough time meditatively digesting the chi being generated. You stop and slow down, and the accumulated chi begins to get digested spontaneously. Eventually you will perhaps digest that momentum and feel inspired to start moving again.
Or another hypothetical example: someone creates for themselves a mostly very mental career, writes many books and articles, creates and synthesizes brilliant conceptual systems in their field. Even though they do body-centered practices and dynamic Tao meditation, those may not be yin enough enough to balance out the yang lifestyle/mental constitution. So the Chan focus on “sitting and forgetting” method can feel like instant nirvana, as it balances their lifestyle, and can make a good “meditation partner” for that person. They will naturally try to mentally synthesize their experience into a new conceptual system that embraces both Tao and Chan.
Just to round out this discussion. Tao is all embracing, and helps all to find the balance they need.
Smiling to our collective balance and the wisdom of Tao,
Michael
ps. note posting on Breathing methods under practice section.
Will be out on retreat for my birthday for a day or two, back later.September 5, 2006 at 9:50 am #17611NnonnthParticipantSeptember 5, 2006 at 11:41 am #17613FajinParticipantHappy Birthday Michael,
Thank you for posting your thoughts on the benefits. I disagree with some of the things you say:
>>to get a stuck human mind to shift, sometimes it is a good strategy to completely deny its reality, i.e. use a “shock” tactic. This shock can occurs due to the challenge of a Self trying to wrap itself around Non-Self. This can cause it to shift half-way<>It doesn’t make the doctrine of the Denial of SElfhood true or give any inherency to Emptiness metaphysics, it should simply be seen as a tactic that can be effective for some people.<>The problem with the Buddhist doctrines comes (MHO) from clinging to the belief in Emptiness or Illusion of Self as absolute, as the shock therapy value can be taken to excess, and can eventually undermine one’s raison d’etre in the post natal world.<>I think she was too yin to take on Emptiness as a strategy for development.<>So, to make up an example, if you’ve been practicing a martial art for eight hours a day for ten years, to just sit and do nothing might feel like sudden enlightenment.<<
*Not so, I have been doing Tibetan one-pointed concentration for a long time now, but when I learned some mindfulness meditation, I really began to experience my true nature. My central channel was already open a long time ago and so I can go deep in my meditations.
To conclude,
Buddhist meditation includes:
-greater free will
-epxeriencing reality as it is
-balncing yin-yang
-realizing our true self
-freeing ourselves from karmaMay you have a fun Birthday!
FajinSeptember 5, 2006 at 5:42 pm #17615NnonnthParticipant>>When we realize our true nature, we realize that desires will only lead to more pain<<
How about the desire to do Sanfeng alchemy?
How about the desire to cure cancer?
How about the desire to make love to your wife?
How about the desire to eat a bowl of rice?
Jeesh, it's no wonder Buddhists get to be such serious broody types after a while!
;] NN
September 5, 2006 at 7:09 pm #17617FajinParticipantHi Nnonnth,
I said desires, not needs.
Is there a need to practice alchemy, wether Wudang Alchemy or One Cloud’s alchemy? For what? Why? What is the end goal of alchemical methods? Tell me.
Is there a need to cure cancer? I’m pretty sure if we get to THAT level, cancer won’t affect us?
Is there a need to make love to your wife? Why? Do you have to have a wife?
Do you desire eating a bowl of rice? Or is the need to stay alive?
When we realize our true nature, we do what is needed, not what is desired. It is not free will to do whatever you want. There is greater freedom from the suppression of the ego.
Buddhists are not serious broody types, they just have less of an ego, that’s all. When you get there, you’ll see.
Fajin
September 6, 2006 at 4:17 am #17619Alexander AlexisParticipant“What is the end goal of alchemical methods? Tell me.”
I’ll tell you.
The end goal is to get to the point where you won’t have the desire/need to write arrogant statements like this to your siblings:“When we realize our true nature, we do what is needed… When you get there, you’ll see.”
Did you NEED to go to China?
Wake up and smell the bullshit.
September 6, 2006 at 5:27 am #17621NnonnthParticipantSeptember 6, 2006 at 5:57 am #17623NnonnthParticipant>>Is there a need to practice alchemy, wether Wudang Alchemy or One Cloud’s alchemy? For what? Why? What is the end goal of alchemical methods? Tell me.<>Is there a need to cure cancer? I’m pretty sure if we get to THAT level, cancer won’t affect us?<>Is there a need to make love to your wife? Why? Do you have to have a wife?<>Do you desire eating a bowl of rice? Or is the need to stay alive?<<
The bowl of rice would be nice!
At least now I understand why there aren't too many tales of Buddhists healing other people… gosh what a philosophy.
What about if I 'desire' to watch a beautiful sunset?
What about if I 'desire' to talk to a tree?
What about if I 'desire' to heal a sick person?
What about if I 'desire' to make a piece of music?
What about if I 'desire' to cross my legs?
What about if I 'desire' to visit Venice?
What about if I 'desire' to ride a camel?
What about if I 'desire' to do a handstand?
What about if I 'desire' to play a game of chess?
You are saying that all of these things can *only ever* lead to more misery??? And you wonder why I suspect Buddhism is anti-incarnatory???
Have you never heard of the idea that sometimes things are good and sometimes things are bad? And you can enjoy the good and learn from the bad?
But I know what you will say – it is all false. You prefer to sit on a mountain and not lose your real self. All these activities are just so many wastes of time. The love and beauty, the culture, the truth of existence, that occurs a million times in the human incarnated life, are to you nothing more than distractions.
Mercy me! You can keep it!
NN
September 6, 2006 at 8:12 am #17625NnonnthParticipantCompare these two statements…
Michael:
>>I feel Buddhism in general to be male Old Boy religion, even though they don’t put any male god on the throne. They put the formeless on the throne, which is a subtle way of ***de-throning the physical and the female role in birthing physical form.*** … it is clearly patriarchal, ***run by men trying to discipline their desire nature***, which arises from having a body.<>Is there a need to make love to your wife? Why? Do you have to have a wife?…
It is not free will to do whatever you want. There is greater freedom from ***the suppression of the ego.***<< [my emph.]NN
September 6, 2006 at 9:39 am #17627FajinParticipantHello Alexander,
I still have an ego. I am not saying one suddenly is done with his ego and is through with all desires with the snap of a finger.
Look at Buddha and Lao Tzu, do you think they have any desires to do anything? When all life becomes spontaneous in action, we don’t think about choosing what is needed or desired, we just do it simply. There is no bullshit.
Fajin
September 6, 2006 at 9:48 am #17629FajinParticipantHi Nnonnth,
You can give me 10000 examples of there being a need to do something or not, but until spontaneous action arises, you will continue to find Buddhists to be boring, serious, dull people. Good actions yeld good karma, bad actions – bad karma.
Enjoy your trip to Venice,
FajinSeptember 6, 2006 at 9:54 am #17631FajinParticipantHi Nnonnth,
Our yi is not to go destroy our desire nature. Our yi is on awakening our yuan shen. When we do so, our desire nature fades, it is not our primordial nature.
Fajin
September 6, 2006 at 10:09 am #17633NnonnthParticipant– this morning I looked over some old forum stuff from the days of Plato, Max, and everything. Ye gods! If I’d’ve known the history here, I never would’ve tried to bridge the divide.
I have to take a break from the forum for a while – back in a couple of months.
So llonngth! Nnonnth is ggonnth!
NN
September 6, 2006 at 10:48 am #17635FajinParticipant>>this morning I looked over some old forum stuff from the days of Plato, Max, and everything. Ye gods! If I’d’ve known the history here, I never would’ve tried to bridge the divide.<>I have to take a break from the forum for a while – back in a couple of months.<<
*After Michael's response, I'm gone too. I'll also be back in more than a couple months.
Fajin
September 6, 2006 at 11:00 am #17637DogParticipant“Good actions yeld good karma, bad actions – bad karma.”
Do you mean natural action, or action aligned with the flow of the life force? Becuase the above statement is old, out dated, and dripping with duality.
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