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I’ve been experimenting with various kinds of lower tan tien breathing, etc., and it came to mind that i’ve never browsed Chia’s fairly recent book, “Tan Tien Chi Kung” (publ. ’02, ’04). Called my local new age bookstore, they had it in stock, and went over to take a look through it – for tips on variety of exercise.
The first section is titled “Chi Pressure” and goes directly to the analogy of pumping up a tire: the more presure the more protected the organs and internals are. Now, both that title and the analogy are about the worst things a person could give for practical instruction. That view, employed in practice, will injure a large percentage of students. You almost couldn’t give someone instructions that’ll lead more directly to injury.
I browsed some more of the book, didn’t see anything worth while, and left the store seeing red. Here is the most popular Taoist teacher, by far… he’s been doing this for 20 years and so has had time to get feedback from students on what works, what doesn’t, refine his approach… and yet he’s butchering a beautiful tradition, and leading students into certain injury. Like i said: seeing red.
So, a couple of things calmed me down. One, is that i appreciate that Michael Winn has taken on a very difficult task of revising the teachings. I don’t know how the politics, personal motivations, relationships, and so forth play out – that’s all Michael’s personal business. What i do know is that the neutral space that Michael is emphasizing is a huge huge step forward, and that it takes… fortitude to revise a system from within.
The other thing that helped is that i came up with a very succinct description of the presentations in the products that are sold under Chia’s name: basically selling sensation and calling it “Taoism”. This runs through his teachings, from the Tan Tien Chi Kung book that i browsed, to “Healing” Love, and everything else. It is a very marketable strategy, certain to be popular, certain to be sensational yet to lead to no great resolutions (keeps people interested in more, more, more), and is just as certain to lead to injury for the vast majority of those that practice it dedicatedly for any great length of time.
Now, i want to be clear that i have no idea what Chia’s motivations are; I don’t know why he does this, if he’s aware that he’s being so misleading – none of that. I don’t know him personally.
I just know that, on a practical and theoretical basis, unless you align the practices with the deeper natural principles – its a recipe to get hurt. Heaven-person-earth integration, stabalising in emptiness (the neutral space) which gradually allows you to withstand more energy/sensation with stability, balance, suppleness that gradually culminates in health and (later) great strength. All this stuff starts, must start, from the deeper principles that tend to be soft, yielding, refining the self, finding no-sensation… that later allow, culminate in, some of these more salable points. Put the cart before the horse and it is a very direct recipe for student injury.
I know that this is, by far, the most politically incendiary post i’ve every written, here. I’m writing here, trying to write, just clearly about principle. Trying to promote clear understanding. Writing honestly in pursuit of clearer understanding of natural principles.
The situation is so blatant, that i can’t not say it.
…and i feel that this forum, at its root, is about about honest expression… sincerely directed. learning about the Tao.
Trunk
I dont care how much more centered Michaels stuff is than Chia’s, fact is a fact, they are both money hungry. This goes for just about every spiritual seller out there.
Point Blank, I am not saying that there is anything wrong with that!
Make sure you understand that.But like I said a fact is a fact!
Things are changing though. Cause there are people at there now that know just about everything that has been published.
And with in the next couple of years the industry may plumet.
Why?Simply because of Free knowledge!
You know, you might get all down on Chia’s work, but I like his insight.
Really at some level, all spiritual practioners can offer is there own
personal insight into the practice.
Like after they have laid out all that they learned from there teacher,
then it just becomes a matter of revamping things and finding deeper methods.Remeber this, the practices are always evolving.
There literally endless ways to due ALCHEMY.
So in general there could be and endless amount of books written.Though the core ideas will stay the same.
The methodologies may change!Anyway, I wouldnt get to so upset with it all.
I realise that at some point we all set high standards for the material
being published today.
Just be glad you are not sucked into buying what you think is garbage anymore.
At least you can see right through things.
That in fact is an advantage!Well, this is just my 2 cents.
Hope you feel better!
hahahaah
peace
I just came across this website (meditationexpert.com) and was checking it out.What do you guys think about him? Is anyone here familiar with his teachings or system? What kind of approach does he emphasize? Is it safe? I didn’t have a chance to read too much but I think I saw him mentioned here once before?
They all are. But I am not judgeing.
I need money to. Heck we all do!
Its a Neccissity to survive.
And the more the Merry, as long as you dont take advantage of people.
But there always seems to be something fishy about money when it comes
to spirituality. Like if you make a million working for some company, then
what is wrong with that? But when your selling salvation, its just
a little creepy??? Dont you think ????Some people seem to think his stuff is superb!
Look, fact is a fact. Everybody has something to OFFER.
Get it!
Even the beginner.We are all on the path. Some people will work harder than others.
But we are all just students to the DIVINE.If something resonates with what you are experiencing in your practice
then check it out.Just dont think that one person is the Great Spiritual Master.
You can learn alot from alot of people,
but in the end,
its all up to the Sacred to show you the Essential Points!
Take that with you forever!One more thing, dont take everything at face value.
For instance I was on that Meditaiton Expert site and I was reading
and article on why you should not spin your chakras or run the orbit.I TOTALLY DISAGREE.
Though there is some interesting stuff on that site.
But I just think of a beginner reading that garbage and thinking its like
totally true. It may take them several years to find out that
the guy has no clue! And that the cosmic spiral was benefial all along.THE KEY IS,
TO JUST BE OPENMINDED and READ EVERYTHING FROM A NEUTRAL STAND POINT.aka WU WEI.
Then you should be O Kay Dokey.
O TAY!
ahahah
bye bye now!
Swoooop!
There are many members here who have great respect for his work. Yoda swears by his White skeleton meditation. I recently downloaded his 5 elements ebook. I was a bit disappointed. In the ebook and in his articles he comes across a bit too academic and overly critical.
In a relatively small 56 page book, he often mentions other systems and people just to say they’re not enlightened or only have reached Dharma level 6. It seems kind of petty.
The meditations in the book, are good, but kind of super advanced simple. I.E. sit infront of a pool of water with eyes half shut until you forget yourself and become one with the water. Not complicated, but its still sit until you’re enlightened, then on to step 2.
Too bad this site was cut short a few weeks ago, we had many threads on him. Ultimately read through his site and decide for yourself. If you like him you might try his cheaper books before plunging into his super thick 99.99 manual.
Peace
Michael
Too big of a step. I don’t want to promote conflict (on the contrary), simply be truthful.
In a way, this is a good sign – of our progressive learning as a group.
Heck, half the things you post would make great articles. The other half is just so so, and the third half I won’t even mention at all 🙂
Peace
Michael
Yeah they def are money hungry but they need to eat and keep working so they can keep teaching. I have all the respect in the world for Mike and Mantak. I definetly got off to a horible start in mantak’s system as Awaken Healing light and messing with sexual energy/herbs/fungi made me fail out of my freshman year of college (I had no teacher in my area) but luckily I was able to use Mike and Chia’s system to get my feet back on the ground. Both systems are not perfect and they are horrible if you are broke/poor. Awaken healing light will fuck you up if you try to learn the microcosmic orbit with it! hahaha
I learn that the hard way. Very hard way.But im not mad I failed out of college.
ITS ALL GOOD IN THE HOOD.What you gotta do is learn from Mike and Mantak and then write your OWN book and make your own movie with a hot chick in it, a REALLY hot blonde one.
Fucken shit yo, we got nothing to complain about.
Props to mantak and props to mike, props to u for learning both the systems and making a movie/book (with naked women) that exceeds them, if you got the balls, that is.
i’d rather see it with some hot asian chicks. ‘specially mainland chinese chicks or filipinas. mmmmmm. i’d buy that.
Coming from a Tibetan tradition, Taoism in general and Chia specifically are badly organized and that can lead to problems BUT it’s scattershot approach is very open and at least you can find answers if you look for them. In the Tibetan tradition you are on a need to know basis. Bodri is a team player and he pushes his philosophy when he can. I feel he’s a good antidote to Chia and I’m enjoying his books–they have a lot of Taoism in a more systematic, well written manner. You should read his stuff. Then you’ll have boiled over at that point and you can start writing Taoist code yourself even if you aren’t “there” yet.
-Yoda
Bodri’s big thing is that, since we’re all human, all spiritual practices will bring you through the same physical and energetic stages of development. It’s just that different religions/traditions call these stages by different names and have different interpretation as to what’s going on.
His practice, and EXTREME bias, leans towards zen buddhism. As far as I can tell, he’s a student of a chinese daoist of the strain of daoism that is very HEAVILY influenced by budhism. So the emphasis is really on empty mind, empty mind, empty mind. Sit with that and eventually all your chi channels open, you’ll attain psycho-kinetic powers, enlightenment, etc.
Bill Bodri has a lot to offer, and I don’t think anything he’s emphasizing is particularly dangerous. I like him and I think he’s a good assimilator of knowledge. A number of people on this board (Plato/Max) swear by him.
My own two cents worth is that I think his central theory is flawed. That is, I have a feeling that buddhists and daoists (and Christians for that matter) are ultimately looking for different things and are interested in manipulating their physical and energetic bodies in different ways. So I don’t think it’s just “different paths up the mountain but from the mountaintop we all see the same thing”. Rather I think buddhists and daoists are climbing very different mountains. It’s just a theory though. I’m no where near advanced enough to speak with any real authority on the issue.
spyrelx
Keith,
You couldn’t be more wrong. I’ve taken Tan Tien Chi Kung from M. Chia twice, and it’s a lovely practice. And, as taught, quite gentle. It’s purpose is to open the kua, and the Dragon/Tiger breathing accomplishes this quite nicely.
In fairness to you, I’d have to say that you can’t fully “get” the practice by just reading the book. You have to study it with Chia or someone who understands.
But your reaction is telling.
Why don’t you review some of the stuff on your own web site.
For example you write pages on Chia’s Iron Shirt II, but (once again) completely miss the point. As Chia explains on the video, you use your heartbeat and Yi to open each joint. The heartbeat is the key; without this foundation you’re just stretching the tendons. Yet (and forgive me if you’ve updated your site since last I looked) there’s nothing about this in your so-called summary. Do you really think you’ve done anyone a service by “translating” M. Chia?
Another example: you “published” James’s warning on the potential dangers of packing, but somehow failed to include his even more inspiring follow-up describing how useful and beneficial the practice can be. Was that post too inconvenient for your world view?
I know you mean well but the words “he’s butchering a wonderful tradition” apply much more to you than M. Chia.
I value the teacher who changes as little as necessary. Let’s preserve what we’ve got and hope that those who came before and those who come after haven’t and won’t fuck it up too badly. We don’t need the practices diluted by well meaning but ultimately ignorant practitioners such as yourself (or me).
If all that remained of the Iron Shirt Tendon work, packing and (presumably) Tan Tien Chi Kung were what you’ve written on your web site, then these practices would be gone forever. And people might read your site and spend weeks, months or even years of senseless practice.
I completely respect your right to practice what you think safe and right, to pick and choose. But for God’s sake get off your high horse.
Keith,
You couldn’t be more wrong. I’ve taken Tan Tien Chi Kung from M. Chia twice, and it’s a lovely practice. And, as taught, quite gentle. It’s purpose is to open the kua, and the Dragon/Tiger breathing accomplishes this quite nicely.
In fairness to you, I’d have to say that you can’t fully “get” the practice by just reading the book. You have to study it with Chia or someone who understands.
But your reaction is telling.
Why don’t you review some of the stuff on your own web site.
For example you write pages on Chia’s Iron Shirt II, but (once again) completely miss the point. As Chia explains on the video, you use your heartbeat and Yi to open each joint. The heartbeat is the key; without this foundation you’re just stretching the tendons. Yet (and forgive me if you’ve updated your site since last I looked) there’s nothing about this in your so-called summary. Do you really think you’ve done anyone a service by “translating” M. Chia?
Another example: you “published” James’s warning on the potential dangers of packing, but somehow failed to include his even more inspiring follow-up describing how useful and beneficial the practice is. Was that post too inconvenient for your world view?
I know you mean well but the words “he’s butchering a wonderful tradition” apply much more to you than M. Chia.
I value the teacher who changes as little as necessary. Let’s preserve what we’ve got and hope that those who came before and those who come after haven’t and won’t fuck it up too badly. We don’t need the practices diluted by well meaning but ultimately ignorant practitioners such as yourself (or me).
If all that remained of the Iron Shirt Tendon work, packing and (presumably) Tan Tien Chi Kung were what you’ve written on your web site, then these practices would be gone forever. And people might read your site and spend weeks, months or even years of senseless practice.
I completely respect your right to practice what you think safe and right, to pick and choose. But for God’s sake get off your high horse.
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