Home › Forum Online Discussion › Practice › The (meaning of the) cauldron in Primordial Qigong
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August 28, 2015 at 12:23 pm #44690RichieRichParticipant
Have just started practising Primordial Qigong and have a few questions.
At the end of the Earth and Heaven cycles we scoop elixir from the golden cauldron and take it through the “centre below” and the “centre above” to the “centre within”.
As I understand it from Michael’s audio and DVD, the elixir consists of the chi generated in the cycles. But I’m unclear about why the elixir forms outside of our physical body and whether the golden cauldron within which it sits is part of or outside of our energy body? And, either way, what does the cauldron represent?
I’m guessing that the “centre below” is the centre of the earth, the “centre above” is the centre of heaven and the centre within in the “lower dantien”? Is this correct? If so, should we imagine taking the elixir down to the centre of the earth? And up to the centre of heaven? And what would the centre of heaven be?!?!
Thanks!
August 29, 2015 at 12:42 pm #44691RichieRichParticipantIn the Earth Cycle there are two moves Michael calls “top to bottom” (Moves 8 and 10) and two he calls “side to side” (Moves 9 and 11).
Re top to bottom, Michael mentions frequently both on the DVD and audio that this involves a chi ball.
Side to side also involves a chi ball, though Michael mentions this less frequently. (I’m not sure he mentions it at all on the DVD.)
Whilst I don’t think Michael says so explicitly, do we imagine that the chi ball we rotate during the first top to bottom stays in front of our dan tien and expands as we move into position to perform the first side to side. And do we imagine that it stays in front of our dan tien and contracts as we move into position to do the second top to bottom?
At the end of the second side to side we have (so I assume) an expanded chi ball in front of our dan tien. The next move (Move 12) is scooping the elixir. So what happens to the chi ball as we begin to scoop the elixir? Does it disappear? And if the chi ball has been empowered throughout the Earth Cycle, why is it said that the elixir (and not the chi ball) embodies all the chi generated during the Cycle? In other words, why does the focus suddenly shift from the empowered chi ball to the elixir?
Or is this tension (or at least that’s how it appears to me) resolved by the chi ball dissolving/transforming into the elixir?
Finally, in the DVD (at 56:20) Michael talks about scooping a chi ball (rather than elixir), which I found a little confusing. Or perhaps he changed the way he did the form between the DVD (2000) and the audio (2004)?
August 30, 2015 at 6:40 am #44693RichieRichParticipantIn the Heaven Cycle, the penultimate move consists of stirring the cauldron, and the final move involves embracing the cauldron and scooping the elixir. Now, on the face of it, the cauldron that is stirred is somewhat different to the cauldron that is embraced. The former consists of the lower and middle dan tiens (within the body) whilst the latter consists of an imaginary golden vessel (outside of the body).
So Im wondering whether theres a relationship between these two cauldrons and, if so, what it is?
August 30, 2015 at 11:33 pm #44695StevenModeratorHi RichieRich,
The volume of questions and the amount of time to discuss even one of them, means that to adequately answer your 3 posts would amount to writing an epic longer than Homer’s Odyssey. 🙂
P.S. I trust that based on prior forum discussions and the 8 hours of privates we did this summer, that you know I’m telling the truth. 🙂
Just joking with you a little bit . . .
The good news for you is that Michael is currently writing a book on Primordial Qigong, that is already at my last check with him, 2-volumes in length and growing. So, it may serve to patiently wait to some extent until this book is completed and released by Michael. You will likely end up with more information than you could possibly hope for, and many of your questions could be answered within these multi-volume set .
So all of these things considered, let me just say a few words in brief.
Cauldron is just a metaphor for any defined “space” in which alchemical transformation can occur and qi “yet to be transformed” is collected. In particular, knowing the definition of dantian, dantian would also serve that purpose, except that dantian traditionally typically refers to the one of the three dantians in the body (e.g. lower dantian, belly center). “Cauldron” does not have such a limitation. In particular, any concentrated area of qi in some defined space in your energy body could theoretically serve as a cauldron.
When you are doing the earth cycle, you have formed a qi ball sitting in front of your lower dantian. Then you take it around the extended microcosmic orbit, out from the front of the middle dantian (heart) to the sides, back to the lower dantian. You rotate this qi ball front-to-back and side-to-side (slightly expanding/contracting appropriately to match your hands). These movements are toward the body. This acts as a vortex pulling in outside qi from the environment into your energy field, like a vacuum. At the end of the earth and heaven cycles, the idea is that you want to gather and collect this energy that you’ve harvested from this inward “vacuum” movement. This is the scooping and collecting business. You collect and gather it, and then pour it into your third eye, so you can add it to the qi you already have in your body. Whether this collecting uses the same qi ball, or a different qi ball, is up-to-you. Personally, I find it useful to imagine the qi ball at your dantian expanding out in all directions as your hands/arms expand, and this qi ball collects all the extra qi like lint sticking to a lint ball as it expands and runs into the extra qi in your energy field. Then you gather it into one concentrated ball at your feet, and you dump the whole thing into your third eye. This then subsequently drains down to the dantian on the inside of the body. However, if you wanted to just do the gathering of the extra qi as a separate action from the qi ball at your dantian (which you could allow to dissolve back inside), I don’t see anything wrong with that either. All of this qi ends up joining you in any event, so how it gets there is not critical. Typically I don’t get too mental about this part, and just focus on gathering the qi, and let my energy body decide how best to manage the whole affair.
I know that doesn’t really thoroughly answer your questions, but let me just leave at that. I think that’s probably already a ton of info, considering time and space limitations.
Qi,
StevenAugust 31, 2015 at 2:06 pm #44697RichieRichParticipantHi Steven
to adequately answer your 3 posts would amount to writing an epic longer than Homer’s Odyssey.
Well…if you insist 🙂
Cauldron is just a metaphor for any defined “space” in which alchemical transformation can occur and qi “yet to be transformed” is collected…”Cauldron” does not have such a limitation. In particular, any concentrated area of qi in some defined space in your energy body could theoretically serve as a cauldron.
Clear and helpful. Thanks.
You rotate this qi ball front-to-back and side-to-side (slightly expanding/contracting appropriately to match your hands). These movements are toward the body. This acts as a vortex pulling in outside qi from the environment into your energy field, like a vacuum.
Clear and helpful. Id been thinking along similar lines: that the chi ball is a vacuum-cleaner-like device for sucking in the energy of the directions!
Typically I don’t get too mental about this part, and just focus on gathering the qi…
I’d find it easier not to get too mental if I felt that, wrt chi balls and elixir, there was a coherent story running through Michaels DVD and audio that I could just relax into. But I don’t quite feel there is.
The issue that exercises me most relates to the coherence of the audio story. During the Earth Cycle, the chi ball is empowered – turbo-charged even – by being circulated around the macrocosmic orbit; by being mixed with the sun, moon and a distant star; and by it sucking in the energy from the four directions during the two front-to-backs and the two side-to-sides (this description from Michaels YouTube corrections.)
But in Michaels description of the last move of the Earth Cycle, this chi ball that weve patiently turbo-charged isn’t mentioned. Instead the focus is on the elixir thats been forming while youve been doing this form (CD2, Track 7, 2 mins).
For me, a coherent story requires some explanation of the relationship between the chi ball weve so patiently turbo-charged and the elixir?
One story could be that the turbo-charged chi ball transforms into the elixir. (Of course, in this case, it would be nice to have an explanation of the added value of transforming the chi ball into an elixir and taking the elixir around the three centres, rather than taking the chi ball as the chi ball around the three centres.)
But Michael’s remark suggests, instead, a story in which, at the same time as the chi ball is journeying around the Earth Cycle becoming turbo-charged, the elixir is forming elsewhere. This is, to me, a more complex story. Why, during the first 11 moves, is the available chi split between, on the one hand, charging the chi ball and, on the other, forming the elixir? And – deliberately pedantic question! – how is the available chi split between the chi ball and the elixir? 50:50?
And this story still requires an explanation of what happens to the chi ball when one begins to scoop the elixir. Does it dissolve into the elixir? Does it move directly into the lower dan tien? (This latter option would seem to defeat the purpose of taking the gathered chi through the three centres.)
A third story would involve dispensing with the elixir and just taking the chi ball around the three centres.
Im a little unclear from your description of your own practice as to whether it involves elixir. Michaels audio dates from 2004. Do you know if his current version of the form involves elixir? If one wants to keep the scooping of the elixir as part of the Earth Cycle, what story would you suggest?!
September 1, 2015 at 1:58 am #44699StevenModerator>>>I’d find it easier not to get too mental
>>>if I felt that, wrt chi balls and elixir,
>>>there was a coherent story running through
>>>Michaels DVD and audio that I could just
>>>relax into. But I don’t quite feel there is.Let’s not get hooked into thinking about storylines.
That’s why we do IS1, remember?Ha ha, just teasing you . . .
But in all seriousness, let’s not worry about trying to make a story that Michael told 11 years ago consistent. 🙂 Michael is very creative and changes stuff all the time, so I don’t want to try to decipher what he may have been thinking 11 years previously and come up with a story.
Instead, let me tell you what I do, and that’s what I said in the previous post.
You have this super-charged qi ball in front of your lower dantian. At the last movement, your arms expand to grab the elixir. It is only natural to just let the qi ball expand outward and forward with your arms. Then as you are scooping, you are compressing the qi ball with your hands as it collects/merges with the qi in front of you. Then qi ball together with collected qi in front of you all gets compressed together by your scooping hands into a single unified liquid elixir. This liquid elixir which you’ve gathered into your hands, you pour into your third eye.
As far as why there is a separate elixir from the qi ball to begin with, that’s as I said in the previous post. The qi that you are collecting is simply the additional qi that arrives into your energy field from the vacuum effect of continuously turning the qi ball toward you. Clearly there is more qi coming into your field from this vortex action, that is not part of the qi ball, right? 😉 OK, that’s all it is. Then you collect this at the end, and you can collect it with (and unify it with) the qi ball, and you have a liquid elixir to pour into your third eye. It pours down to your lower dantian and we are done.
Qi,
StevenSeptember 6, 2015 at 11:28 am #44701RichieRichParticipantSo you refuse to compose a response longer than Homer’s Odyssey. And you won’t speculate on what MW may or may not have meant in a teaching from more than ten years ago. You’re not much fun these days, are you!!
That said, the additional explanation of how you do Primordial makes things clearer.
The qi that you are collecting is simply the additional qi that arrives into your energy field from the vacuum effect of continuously turning the qi ball toward you. Clearly there is more qi coming into your field from this vortex action, that is not part of the qi ball, right?
OK. The “story” is that the rotation of the chi ball pulls more directional chi into one’s energy field than the chi ball itself absorbs. So I suppose the question is whether it’s “clearly” the case that the chi ball won’t absorb all the chi its rotation pulls in? Not sure I’m qualified to judge. But certainly, if you’d have told me that the chi ball absorbs all the chi its rotation pulls in, I’d have found this entirely plausible. That is, I don’t think I’d have been moved to pen an angry missive to the forum protesting that there must surely be some chi pulled in by the chi ball that it doesn’t absorb!
I’d observe that the way you do the final move (Move 12) of the Earth Cycle seemingly differs from (my interpretation of) what MW suggests. In Move 12 you collect the chi not absorbed by the chi ball in Moves 8-11 via expansion of said chi ball. All the chi pulled into one’s energy field during Moves 8-11 is then contained within this expanded chi ball – which is then condensed into elixir. And, thus, the chi ball and the elixir exist not in parallel but in series. However, according to (my interpretation of) what MW says, the elixir and chi ball exist in parallel. That is, MW talks of the elixir thats been forming while youve been doing this form (CD 2, Track 7, 2m) and of “this wonderful elixir of balanced chi that you’ve been cultivating through the whole Earth Cycle” (CD 2, Track 7, 4m 15s).
Further, I’d observe that whilst you suggest pouring the elixir into one’s third eye, MW – in the audio (CD 2, Track 7, 3m 40s) and, arguably, the video (52m 45s) – suggests pouring it onto the crown. And his remark in the audio (CD4, Track 1, 18m 55s) about pouring the elixir down the centre line arguably supports this suggestion.
That you do parts of Primordial differently to MW’s suggestions is genuinely an observation, as I know you have your own ideas about and ways of doing things. But the fact that, in addition to the differences between MW’s video and audio version, there are differences between your version and MW’s audio version really just adds to my frustration.
In response, I suspect you’d say that this frustration is misplaced. In the broadest terms, the general aim at the end of the Earth Cycle is to collect all the chi pulled into one’s energy field, to allow it to be absorbed into our body through our head, and for it to flow down to our lower dan tien. Thus whether one uses a chi ball only or adds elixir, whether the chi ball and elixir exist in series or in parallel, and whether the chi is absorbed through the crown or the third eye is really not decisive – as all alternatives fit within the general aim.
I guess that’s a fair point! But, nevertheless, I’d still have preferred one specific “story” as to how to do Primordial. But maybe that’s just me!
For completeness, I should also add that, despite my confusion/frustration about this one aspect of the form, I do find Primordial very powerful and look forward to exploring it further.
September 6, 2015 at 2:04 pm #44703StevenModerator>>>In Move 12 you collect the chi not absorbed by the chi
>>>ball in Moves 8-11 via expansion of said chi ball.
>>>All the chi pulled into one’s energy field during
>>>Moves 8-11 is then contained within this expanded
>>>chi ball – which is then condensed into elixir.
>>>And, thus, the chi ball and the elixir exist
>>>not in parallel but in series. However, according to
>>(my interpretation of) what MW says, the elixir
>>>and chi ball exist in parallel. That is,
>>>MW talks of the elixir thats been forming
>>>while youve been doing this form
>>>(CD 2, Track 7, 2m) and of “this wonderful
>>>elixir of balanced chi that you’ve been
>>>cultivating through the whole Earth Cycle” (
>>>CD 2, Track 7, 4m 15s).You are getting too mental with this.
Rotation of the qi ball brings qi from outside into your energy field. Why would you assume that it all goes directly into the qi ball? Qi ball is simply doing a reverse rotation . . . turning it toward your body doesn’t suddenly make it some kind of super black hole. You’ve got qi collecting in your energy field that is not going directly into the qi ball . . . so what?What I said is consistent with Michael.
Throughout all the moves up to the last one, qi is collecting in your energy field . . . the elixir. So you have two things: a qi ball and the elixir. I was merely suggesting that on the last move, as your hands expand, the qi ball expands until the qi ball and elixir meet, and then you collect it all together. What’s the issue?
He just doesn’t mention anything about the qi ball when he is scooping the elixir. But what’s your other option if you don’t do what I said? You could just forget about the qi ball entirely and let it dissolve back into you as you scoop. Either way, it is not inconsistent with what he is doing, because he doesn’t talk about that issue, he skips it entirely . . . basically your original question.>>>Further, I’d observe that whilst you suggest
>>>pouring the elixir into one’s third eye,
>>>MW – in the audio (CD 2, Track 7, 3m 40s)
>>>and, arguably, the video (52m 45s) –
>>>suggests pouring it onto the crown.
>>>And his remark in the audio (CD4, Track 1, 18m 55s)
>>>about pouring the elixir
>>>down the centre line arguably
>>>supports this suggestion.He says on the video: “you pour it down onto the crown OR the third eye, the front channel, your mouth.” Now watch the video. Do you see him pour it onto the crown (crown is the top of the head!) or do you see him pour it onto the third eye? Answer: he pours it onto the third eye! He is not taking his hands up above his head and pointing at the Ba Hui point, and dumping the elixir there. It’s going to his forehead, the third eye.
But the fact that he says “OR”, means it is irrelevant what the actual location is. The point is is that it is coming in through the head and you bring it down to the lower dantian. To me, front channel only makes sense, because your hands pass down in front of the body, in front of the front channel . . . and third eye is easiest entryway to front channel.
>>>But the fact that, in addition to the
>>>differences between MW’s video and
>>>audio version, there are differences
>>>between your version and MW’s audio version
>>>really just adds to my frustration.If you are demanding Michael be rigidly consistent in how he teaches something, you will be sorely disappointed. He is not; he is very flexible. And what I recommended is not really any deviation from what he is doing.
If you are annoyed now, you will be greatly annoyed later. He changes the Primordial form when he teaches Greater K&L, then again in Greatest, then again in Star, then again in Congress of H&E. Even from the same class (either Primordial, or the K&L’s) one year to the same class the next year, he changes things. If you get bent out of shape about rigid consistency, then you’re going to go crazy.
If you want something consistent, then do what I said. And in that case, you’ll be within epsilon distance of any of his myriad variations.
S
September 9, 2015 at 4:07 pm #44705diogowatsonParticipantI think my head started to spin just reading this text…
But let me try to add my two cents to the discussion.
I think you are experiencing is simple a resistance from the mind. This happen with me a lot too. The best strategy to me is to keep simple. In other words, set up a simple intention and do the the practice just doing the movements and absorbing the qi from the directions. Primordial is so simple and powerful that sometimes the mind needs to complicate it.
In my point of view all you need to know about primordial is the dvd video and in the update youtube video he posted a year ago. I find the audio class to be a unnecessary bonus.
It’s very common to be rigid with the practice in the beginning (but I dont know for how long you practice).”where the qi go?”, “what I have to visualize?”. But just like Stve said, with you keep like this you going to go nuts with Michael in a near future.
September 14, 2015 at 2:10 am #44707RichieRichParticipantThanks for the reply.
You are getting too mental with this.
I don’t believe so. Rather, I’m seeking clarification of issues I find confusing. Within our exchange, I think some of that confusion comes from the fact that words are easily misunderstandable.
Rotation of the qi ball brings qi from outside into your energy field. Why would you assume that it all goes directly into the qi ball?
A case in point. In your first response you wrote
You rotate this qi ball front-to-back and side-to-side (slightly expanding/contracting appropriately to match your hands). These movements are toward the body. This acts as a vortex pulling in outside qi from the environment into your energy field, like a vacuum.
Given my thinking at the time, I interpreted “vacuum” as short for “vacuum cleaner” (a common abbreviation here in the UK), writing
Id been thinking along similar lines: that the chi ball is a vacuum-cleaner-like device for sucking in the energy of the directions!
A not entirely unreasonable interpretation but clearly incorrect! And, thus, confusion ensued.
Qi ball is simply doing a reverse rotation . . . turning it toward your body doesn’t suddenly make it some kind of super black hole. You’ve got qi collecting in your energy field that is not going directly into the qi ball
Now I see that “vacuum cleaner” was a misunderstanding, it’s all good!
What I said is consistent with Michael. Throughout all the moves up to the last one, qi is collecting in your energy field . . . the elixir.
Eureka! Having looked through our exchange, to my mind this is the first time that the qi collecting in the energy field has been (unambiguously) termed “elixir”. Now that I get this, everything becomes clear. (I now realize I’ve been thinking of an elixir as a liquid, which led me to think that the only elixir in town was the one we scoop in the last Earth Cycle movement.)
So you have two things: a qi ball and the elixir. I was merely suggesting that on the last move, as your hands expand, the qi ball expands until the qi ball and elixir meet, and then you collect it all together. What’s the issue?
With my new understanding, no issue whatsoever!
To the issue of where to “dump” the elixir. In your first post you wrote
Then you gather it into one concentrated ball at your feet, and you dump the whole thing into your third eye.
This suggested to me that where one dumps is entirely unambiguous. However, when one watches the DVD and listens to the audio it isn’t. For example, at one point in the audio (CD 2, Track 7, 3m 40s) Michael specifically talks about dumping it on the crown and letting it run down the front channel through the third eye and so on. Given that there’s some variation in what’s said, I think it was reasonable to seek clarification.
If you are demanding Michael be rigidly consistent in how he teaches something, you will be sorely disappointed.
Perhaps I haven’t been clear on this. But I’m certainly not after rigid consisentcy and entirely appreciate that Michael’s understanding and performance of the forms evolve. As long as the changes maes to a form are clear – as they are in his YouTube video updating Primordial – then I’m a happy camper.
But I get frustrated when I find the description of a form unclear. And as I’ve explained, there are various aspects of the description in the audio I found less than pellucid. However, I think our short little exchange has brought clarity!
(I also think it would be helpful to clearly explain that the DVD and audio aren’t entirely consistent as, in the absence of an explanation, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to assume that they will be!)
September 14, 2015 at 10:47 am #44709StevenModeratorGlad you got it figured out.
As to audio, for me, I tend to give higher credence to what I actually see than what I hear. For instance, if I see someone eating a chocolate bar and they simultaneously (inconsistently) tell me that they don’t eat chocolate, I tend to believe what I’m seeing over what I’m hearing. 😉
>>>But I get frustrated when I find the description
>>>of a form unclear. And as I’ve explained, there
>>>are various aspects of the description in the
>>>audio I found less than pellucid.I think a better approach is to just take the position that you haven’t gotten an explanation yet, and to just release your attachment to the words or explanation that you don’t think makes sense.
Sidebar: Many years ago I picked a well-known mathematical text to begin doing independent self-study from. I thought it was a great book. Then after I got to around Chapter 4 or 5, it started to not make a lot of sense. There seemed to be inconsistencies and I had trouble following what what written. At the time, I got very frustrated, and spent a lot of effort trying to “make sense” out of what was written. In fact, some of the proofs seemed to be completely wrong (in fact, I now know some were). It was only years later that looking back on it that I realized what the real problem was. The real problem was that the book “simply did not do a good job explaining those aspects” . . . the explanations should have simply been discarded and another explanation looked for, via another book, via a live teacher, or by figuring it out myself (if possible). The lesson I learned here is that authors of mathematics textbooks are not perfect. They are a wonderful resource, but sometimes their explanations fail miserably and are no good at all . . .
What does this story have to do with HT?
The point is, is that outside explanations (i.e. one’s you don’t come up with yourself) are just somebody’s attempt to explain what is happening. Sometimes they have a good explanation, and sometimes they do not. And *sometimes* you yourself will come up with an explanation on your own that is better than anything you’ve heard from others. In that case, you should go with that explanation, even if it doesn’t fit with what others have said.Smiles,
StevenSeptember 28, 2015 at 9:39 am #44711rideforeverParticipantIf a clear answer is not forthcoming, perhaps there is not one available.
One possibility is to collect together your questions, and spend half an hour experimenting on yourself and trying to find out what you would like to know.
What is the difference between pouring the cauldron onto the top of the head or through the forehead ? What happens if I turn the chi ball 50 times … can I feel the effect ? Can I feel an area of chi and also an elixir ?
In this way you can become very much more experienced with your self. Instead of simply following, you walk down the paths that interest you and do a little investigation.
In recent years I have seen several groups of Westerners creating tight conceptual frameworks for various Eastern traditions; which can only be a good thing.
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