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I don’t know about Osho but I have three teenage daughters and I experience their behaviour differently than he.
We consider nudity as normal, we walk around naked, we take them to nudist camps but growing older and more aware of their body, they don’t want us to walk around nude any longer in the house, as they don’t do that any longer themselves. It is part of learning about sexual boundary, what is me and what is you. I think it is very ok to respect that important period in their life and not go against their wish. My partner was not aware of this issue between him and his daughters, untill I asked him to ware underpants, not out of shame but out of respect to his daughters queste, discovering sexuality. So far for nudity and respect.
As for porn. We believe it is very natural as well to find out about sexuality. We never look at porn, nor do we have it in the house but we observe that our teenage daughters are looking and finding their way in porn land. We don’t consider it as ‘wrong’ but I do communicate with them about it, to give them a ‘realistic’ feedback. And this happens in a relaxed and friendly way, no judgments, no secrets.
And they can have access to internet, books, whatever as they can have access to us to talk about it, as I keep my eyes and ears open to them, and look at the side line and let them experience ‘life’ with all its aspects yet protecting them from ‘weird’ and ‘danger’ – again boundaries are to be made and offered.I think sexuality is OK, but porn is not. It is not because they do it for lust, not love. Looking at it fulfills that lust. It depends on the reason.
I believe it is important to guide them through this, if you forbid young people to look into this they get attracted, once they learn it is shallow they can leave it for what it is. Shut off lust before they even tasted it and problems will arise. You have to ‘understand’ what you need to let go off, instead of doing it because ‘others’ tell you so. Like my oldest daughter (now 15) tried drugs and smoked cigarettes and is now on a crusade against it. Not because I told her, although I explained her what it does in the body, what it does for the energy, but I understood as well that her need/lust to experience it was much bigger than my wise ‘lessons’. But she became wise herself through her own experiences. We have to allow others to learn not to avoid them to learn, that is ‘love’. That is how they learn that it is ‘love’ that is always around whatever they do.
But it takes a lot trust of the parent to guide them through this period.I hope you are monitoring what they are surfing. Looking at porn at a young age is not like smoking cigarettes or trying drugs. Once the sexual energy gets imprinted there is a problem, and the internet is not like looking at playboy magazine.
You don’t want to wake up in a few years and your daughter has a taste for horse cock and pulling man-trains with her ass because then what are you going to do besides thanking your friendly ISP?
Wendy,
I meant sex as a manifestation of love, not lust. What’s the point of looking at porn? If she already knows it’s degrading and bad, etc. why continue? At that age, it’s all due to raging hormones. Even if they disagree with you that it’s shallow, education should not be done by letting them experience it. What if they don’t want to stop? Cigarettes and porn are different. Porn can easily become an addiction when the eyes (liver) are fed by lustful pictures and that brings lusty thoughts after (spleen. Above all, learning should NOT be done by going to extremes. But if you do go to extremes, you’ll learn something anyway!
Btw, do your kids practice any qigong or anything at all related?
Smiling away,
FajinMy two cents.
I think Teaching by example is great. Of course the more virtuous you become the better that example gets. Some key points I would talk aobut is that the body is pretty stimulus response based so if you feed it sexual ques it will react naturaly to them. The triky thing is not developing judgments on these sensations. So yeah I think the condemning approach often just turns it into a taboo and most people who have not found deeper levels to being a sexual being will us the taboo aspect to help get that turned on feeling. I would think women can handle porn better then men can. That big dose of yang just nocks us out of balance real quick, and we tend to keep the activity in our heads, where as women seem to be able to dring it down, make it more emotional. I would say it took me from 12/13 years old to now (I am 23) to start to realy feel what it means to be sexual. Now I can breath and smile and feel turned on at beep levels. But I would say I kept sex on the out side and in my head up to about two years ago. Throw Chi Kung I have found and cleared a blockage that related to my sexuality having to do with my father and his father and so on going back very far that once cleared brought me new levels of joy and also my father. I found that the work I did, brought deeper joy in my father. I tell you this so you do not feel bad as a parent if your kid gets hooked on porn or what ever just give it our best to work on our self, and lead by example. So pass down that wisdom. Try not to bring the drama. Sounds like they already have some respect for there bodys, thats a great start.
Its funny I would say 90% of poeple around us look at porn, and yet it is still a taboo. Hum?
Lust is a negative desire – negative ego. The only desire that should be inherent in a human being, is the desire to be free. The highest evolution, is unlimited freedom. Lust contributes in limited free will.
Don’t you notice that when you get turned on by looking at dirty images, your eyes widen and are fulfilled with craving.
In Daoism, looking too much at this hurts your eyes. It makes your heart beat fast and turns on the sympathetic nervous response too. Just look at what it did to Jonathon for example. How can you even ask such a silly question, Pietro?
Thank you Dog I believe you have a very good eye for women problems, again judgment is all around, yet well meant advice as well from their own experience, isn’t it. All I can say from what I see and observe is that they become very free in their sexuality and sensuality, as a woman I understand how important it is for girls not to have guilt and no judgments towards their body and sex. They blossom in a nice way without restrictions, and I do not FEAR.
It takes a lot of communication and guidance, it is an important part of my job as a mother. While most mothers are working outside, I am working in the house, I choose to be around all the time, if they need me, I am available. Same with their father, he is working in the house, so he is present and open to any of their questions. We choose to work and live like this to give 100% access to our young daughters.
And yes Fajin, my 15 year old is taking her basic class in June. I went to Britain with her to prepare her and to get in deeper contact with earth energy. While I help her along the way dealing with her issues she undoubtly inherited from her parents,us.
Have to run we have our weekly ‘dive in nature, absorbing earth’ with the girls…
A organized religon viewpoint, but a very good one at that…
Mutual Attraction Differs from Lust
Pope John Paul II
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GENERAL AUDIENCE OF 17 SEPTEMBERMore than fifty thousand faithful took part in Wednesday’s Audience in St. Peter’s Square. The Holy Father continued his theme of adultery which he had been developing for several weeks.
1. During our last reflection, we asked ourselves what the lust was which Christ spoke of in the Sermon on the Mount (Mt 5:27-28). Let us recall that he spoke of it in relation to the commandment: “Do not commit adultery.” Lust itself (more exactly: looking at lustfully), is defined as “adultery committed in the heart.” That gives much food for thought. In the preceding reflections we said that by expressing himself in that way, Christ wanted to indicate to his listeners the separation from the matrimonial significance of the body felt by a human being (in this case the man) when concupiscence of the flesh is coupled with the inner act of lust. The separation of the matrimonial significance of the body causes at the same time a conflict with his personal dignity, a veritable conflict of conscience.
At this point it appears that the biblical (hence also theological) meaning of lust is different from the purely psychological. The latter describes lust as an intense inclination toward the object because of its particular value, and in the case considered here, its sexual value. As it seems, we will find such a definition in most of the works dealing with similar themes. Yet the biblical interpretation, while not underestimating the psychological aspect, places that ethic in relief above all, since a value is being impaired. I would say that lust is a deception of the human heart in the perennial call of man and womana call revealed in the mystery of creationto communion by means of mutual giving. In the Sermon on the Mount (Mt 5:27-28) Christ referred to the heart or the internal man. His words do not cease being charged with that truth concerning the principle to which, in replying to the Pharisees (cf. Mt 19:8), he had reverted to the whole problem of man, woman and marriage.
2. The perennial call, which we have tried to analyze following Genesis (especially Gn 2:23-25) and, in a certain sense, the perennial mutual attraction on man’s part to femininity and on woman’s part to masculinity, is an indirect invitation of the body. But it is not lust in the sense of the word in Matthew 5:27-28. That lust carries into effect the concupiscence of the flesh (also and especially in the purely internal act). It diminishes the significance of what wereand that in reality do not cease beingthat invitation and that reciprocal attraction. The “eternal feminine” (das ewig weibliche), just like the “eternal masculine” for that matter, on the level of historicity, too, tends to free itself from pure concupiscence and seeks a position of achievement in the world of people. It testifies to that original sense of shame of which Genesis 3 speaks. The dimension of intentionality of thought and heart constitutes one of the main streams of universal human culture. Christ’s words in the Sermon on the Mount exactly confirm this dimension.
3. Nonetheless, these words clearly assert that lust is a real part of the human heart. When compared with the original mutual attraction of masculinity and femininity, lust represents a reduction. In stating this, we have in mind an intentional reduction, almost a restriction or closing down of the horizon of mind and heart. It is one thing to be conscious that the value of sex is a part of all the rich storehouse of values with which the female appears to the man. It is another to “reduce” all the personal riches of femininity to that single value, that is, of sex, as a suitable object for the gratification of sexuality itself. The same reasoning can be valid concerning what masculinity is for the woman, even though Matthew’s words in 5:27-28 refer directly to the other relationship only. As can be seen, the intentional reduction is primarily of an axiological nature. On one hand the eternal attraction of man toward femininity (cf. Gn 2:23) frees in himor perhaps it should freea gamut of spiritual-corporal desires of an especially personal and “sharing” nature (cf. the analysis of the “beginning”), to which a proportionate pyramid of values corresponds. On the other hand, lust limits this gamut, obscuring the pyramid of values that marks the perennial attraction of male and female.
4. Lust has the internal effect, that is, in the heart, on the interior horizon of man and woman, of obscuring the significance of the body, of the person itself. Femininity thus ceases being above all else an object for the man. It ceases being a specific language of the spirit. It loses its character of being a sign. I would say that it ceases bearing in itself the wonderful matrimonial significance of the body. It ceases its correlation to this significance in the context of conscience and experience. Lust arising from concupiscence of the flesh itself, from the first moment of its existence within the manits existence in his heartpasses in a certain sense close to such a context. (Using an image, one could say that it passes on the ruins of the matrimonial significance of the body and all its subjective parts.) By virtue of axiological intentionality itself, it aims directly at an exclusive end: to satisfy only the sexual need of the body, as its precise object.
5. According to the words of Christ (Mt 5:27-28), such an intentional and axiological reduction can take place in the sphere of the look (of looking). Rather, it takes place in the sphere of a purely interior act expressed by the look. A look (or rather looking) is in itself a cognitive act. When concupiscence enters its inner structure, the look takes on the character of lustful knowledge. The biblical expression “to look at lustfully” can indicate both a cognitive act, which the lusting man “makes use of,” (that is, giving him the character of lust aiming at an object), and a cognitive act that arouses lust in the other object and above all in its will and in its heart. As is seen, it is possible to place an intentional interpretation on an interior act, being aware of one and the other pole of man’s psychology: knowledge or lust understood as appetitus (which is something broader than lust, since it indicates everything manifested in the object as aspiration, and as such always tends to aim at something, that is, toward an object known under the aspect of value.) Yet, an adequate interpretation of Matthew 5:27-28 requires usby means of the intentionality itself of knowledge or of the appetitus to discern something more, that is, the intentionality of the very existence of man in relation to the other man. In our case, it is the man in relation to the woman and the woman in relation to the man.
It will be well for us to return to this subject. Concluding today’s reflection, we add again that in that lust, in looking at lustfully, which the Sermon on the Mount deals with, for the man who looks in that way, the woman ceases to exist as an object of eternal attraction. She begins to be only an object of carnal concupiscence. To that is connected the profound inner separation of the matrimonial significance of the body, about which we spoke in the preceding reflection.
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Taken from:
L’Osservatore Romano
Weekly Edition in English
22 September 1980, page 11Card #8
Lust
The Edge of the AbyssRide your lion, make your life ecstasy — that’s the message Lust** brings. The right use of Ego is the instruction it offers. Lust and Ego, two concepts despised in spiritual circles and abused in everyday living. Two experiences we cannot live fully without, however.
This is not the lust of sexual passion. This is the lust for life, the second meaning of lust, which the dictionary describes as “Intense eagerness or enthusiasm.”*** The root of the word lust, las-, means to be eager. Are you eager to get up each morning and go to work? No? Then your work is not enough of an expression of your uniqueness to make you eager to do it. You’re not riding your ego lion.
The root of ego, eg, simply means “I.” Ego is defined as “The self, especially as distinct from the world and other selves.”Ego is the vehicle by which you make yourself known and effective. Expressing your distinctiveness in all you do stimulates a constant interest in, a lust for, life; and for fine tuning your unique talents. Without the vehicle, the lion, of ego, you go nowhere. But, who’s driving that vehicle, who’s riding the lion? Too often in human history the ego has been driven by intellect alone, with no grace from Spirit. Spirit? What’s that?
There are so many names for Spirit, and even more dogmas and meanings put to those names, that we’ve each begun to find our own title for the underlying experience these names describe. What I mean by Spirit is the Intelligence within and composing everything, from quark to star. As I see it, that Intelligence become conscious through us, experiences through us, expresses through us. That Intelligence, Spirit, uses our talents to create yet again: a ballet, a poem, a computer, a bridge, a community. This Intelligence, Spirit, seeks to be our Muse. When we listen and let Spirit be the rider of our lion, we experience the right use of ego and life. Lust represents the eagerness this partnership of ego and Spirit brings, the delight in expressing uniqueness, the joy in dedication to the Spirit of Life.
Not surprisingly, Lust is associated astrologically with Leo, the sign of ego and self expression. As well as being the artist, Leo is often seen as the patron of the arts: the director of the museum, the producer of the film, the financial backer of the show. There is an old Hindu chant about the Sun, the ruler of Leo, that roughly translated means: “Let me be like the sun, shining on all things to assist their growth, not burning so hot they are scorched.” This is the motivation of Leo as the the patron of the arts, working with a lust that’s dedicated to nurturing uniqueness in everyone.
When Lust shows its face to you, you’re receiving a message to do your own thing, to appreciate your talents and ride them into life, to dedicate your existence to your truest expression. Whether a patron, a politician or an artist, love your uniqueness, don’t whip it down because it’s too wild and strong for the culture. Entertain them with your eccentricity, make ’em smile and applaud: ride your ego lion, and let Life Spirit hold the reins!
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Pietro,
That’s just like saying craving for sweets is different. Tongue connected to heart. Or that the desire to listen to heavy metal is different. Ears connected to kidneys. These are all going to hurt the five organs. Lust deals with the eyes and liver. It’s a negative desire. It leads to suffering.
Both Buddhists and Daoists believe the same thing. If there is no lust, what’s the point of looking at porn then? It’s pointless to look at porn if you don’t find it satisfying. Lust and porn are part of the same totality. That part of reality is connected to the wood element.
P.S. Why not love instead of lust?
Regards,
FajinI never said that you have to believe it, but I’m just mentioning that since wuxing creates the reality that you experience, lust is a negative desire becuase it damages the wood element. Daoists believe in wuxing is what I meant, I think you do too, right?
Brother Fajin, people have to learn at their own rate and according to who they are from where they are. Your words, while sounding logical, are quite judgmental.
“Lust is a negative desire – negative ego. [That’s your opinion. Life created lust too.] The only desire that should [SHOULD?] be inherent in a human being, is the desire to be free. [And what if that isn’t the only desire? What do you do then?]
“Don’t you notice that when you get turned on by looking at dirty [DIRTY?] images, your eyes widen and are fulfilled with craving.” [So, what? That part of you wants something. It wants to be fulfilled and completed. Are you going to love it or hate it?]
“In Daoism, looking too much at this hurts your eyes. It makes your heart beat fast and turns on the sympathetic nervous response too. [Yes! That’s quite an experience, isn’t it!]
“Just look at what it did to Jonathon for example. [How do you know WHY Jonathon has been going through what he has been going through?]
“How can you even ask such a silly question, Pietro?”
He asks that question so you can find a better answer.
If anything should be transmuted out of a person it is their judgment first. Judgment implies fear and resistance. Wendy is correct in her way of dealing with her daughters because only by allowing someone to fully experience themselves consciously and with acceptance can something transmute to a more fulfilling level for them. Witness all the problems we have in the US because of people judging and trying to control others they believe are “doing wrong”. No amount of jails will be enough for us here because we are in so much denial that we have come to believe that controlling others is the way to peace.
Conscously entering a relationship with something or someone because part of you wants what you believe you will get from it is the balanced way to grow. And growth is the goal, not control. I respect you for your achievements and your studies which I have read about from your writings. I see that you are developing Self. But I have to tell you that much of your speaking reveals an unwillingnes to be a human being with flaws and vulnerabilities. Your desire to control is, well, martial. Your comments on relationship to Michael in which you have used the word “interesting,” as in, “That’s an interesting thought,” show that you are keeping yourself aloof and philosophical when you “should” be diving in heart first. These things Wendy and others are talking about are not ideas in the head, they are heart issues. They call for putting aside all theory and defensiveness and having complete acceptance of whatever exists within you despite what you would prefer to do. Only this way can the alchemical theories and practices be properly utilized. The most important and scariest part of life is being able to love.
It seems to me that you are very hard on yourself to be talking about things the way you do. I bet that when you get to the deeper alchemical formulas you’ll find a much softer way to be. To me, Wendy’s presence on this forum seems “called” by You to offer a balance for you.
Pointedly, yet affectionately,
AlexanderAlexander,
You read my words and then make a conclusion about me, who is being judgemental? Just because I am a martial artist, does that mean that I use control? Did Zhang, Sanfeng use control? I will reply to some of the things you said where I believe there is a need to.
>>That’s your opinion. Life created lust too.<>And what if that isn’t the only desire? What do you do then?<>So, what? That part of you wants something. It wants to be fulfilled and completed. Are you going to love it or hate it?<>How do you know WHY Jonathon has been going through what he has been going through?<<
*Because he mentioned that he gets turned on as soon as he sees, for example, on the internet skin, legs, sexy things, etc. he just has a huge craving for girls. This is lust. He said what he's been going through.
I am only saying things as they are. For example, by saying anger is related to the liver and it injures the liver, is that a judgement too? Lust is the same. I think even Max or Bagua will agree with me on this.
I have flaws and vulnerbilities like everyone else, but if I see them, then i will try to correct them, I won't leave them. I am a growing person, I improve daily. Remember, it's daily decrease, not daily increase, hack away the unessentials. I do agree that I will change when I practice the higher alchemical formulas and astrologically I am fire.
I know you are saying this to help me, but it does sound quite judgemental, Alexander. Being a warrior is to not be afraid of yourself, the battle is with yourself. Knowing yourself is enlightenment. Martial arts is not only expressing the body in combative form, but is an expression of love that overshadows the fear of yourself. Only through self-disciple will you achieve self-control. I try not be hard on myself, I shoot for wu-wei in life.
Kind regards + smiles,
Fajin
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