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Fajin: Therefore, we must transform the personality. Then, we integrate this ego with original spirit, do we not? Maybe now we understand each other better.
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Bagua: When we attune to our center, personality follows, the five shen follow, all aspects follow, cultivating this center is the transformation process, if you chase each emotion, it will never end.
———————The above exchange is I think a good leverage point for entering fresh viewpoint into this discussion.
Basically, I perceive fajin using the language and perspective of the Daoists, and Bagua the perspective of Chan Buddhists. We know where I stand in general on their respective use of language, but I will try to reframe it in the light of this discussion.A few preliminaries:
1. While it might seem “intellectual” to have such a detailed Daoist map of the workings of hte body-mind,
the terminology was developed by the Daoists over millenia for a good reason: to be more skillful and profound in understanding the workings of humanity in its relation to Heaven and Earth. Such compelxity is fundamental to the practice of Chinese medicine – which has even more categories, because you NEED them to describe the variety of human phenomena. And the innumerable applications of this language – to medicine, martial arts, city planning, feng shui, astrology, etc. etc. arise because of the precision of the language. In short, the Daoist language empowers functonality.The higher practices get simpler because you are dealng with core issues, the beginning practices (One Cloud’s First Formula) are complex because you are dealing with a vast complex of manifestation. Let’s not confuse the two, but see their continuity as Many and the One needing each other.
2. My experience in China in dealing with both Chan and Daoists – is summed up by a Completee Perfection Daoist monk I met in Weibaoshan on my last trip (Yunnan province):
Winn: Why did you become a daoist monk?
Monk: I was a Chan monk at first for 3 years. But my heart yearned to express it self through music. And I wanted to study astrology. Both were forbidden by the Chan Buddhists as creating attachment. So I became a Daoist monk. Here I was taught to use music and astrology to express my soul and cultivate myself.
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My take on the two paths – and why I do NOT think they are the same, even though some of their techniqeus overlap:I believe that other than seeking the path of asceticism, most westerners prefer the Daoist approach to fulfilling their life. If the premise of Chan is that you have to give up everything that your soul wants, you get a world full of philistines that might be simpler, but its would be far more boring and ugly – and ultimately less enlightened. Basically, Chan argument is that all human accomplishment, artistic genius, etc. is a deluded string of attachments.
Its the extremes that teach wisdom and allow for true completion. The soul has desires that it expresses through the personality – without desire, its impossible to complete one’s mission/soul purpose.
Wihtout completing desire, you leave empty handed, mission aborted. False or “Empty” Enlightenment.
Chan likely response: soul must be deluded also, soul desire is part of its karma to be worked out.
My response: If soul is created by Original Spirit, then Original Spirit must also be deluded.
Possible Chan response: that’s why even the notion of Self implied by Original Spirit is also false.
My response: seems like the Life Force is going to an awful of trouble to create all these illusions.
Are you saying the Life Force itself is not expressing its free will – ie its innate desire – in creating the illusion of self?
—————-2. These precise alchemical terminologies are found in the earliest Daoist texts such as the Nei Ye (Manual for Internal Training), which precedes the Daodejing., and already quoted in earlier posting on this board. Lao tzu refers to the po soul and the ling, the vessel which holds the heart-mind, xin. So let’s not get into a historical quibble about what the real Daoism is; it is a big river with many tributaries, all fed by the same waters.
3. The crux of the ego discussion:
” When we attune to our center, personality follows” sums up Bagua’s position.WHO is the “we” that is attuning to the center, if it is not the xin-heart-mind/personality?
If its the Yuan Shen attuning to its own center, how did Original Spirit lose its attunement?
If it got distracted and is no longer attuned to the center, sounds to me like it is no longer Original Spirit.Bagua’s statement implies one of three things:
1. that the Yuan Shen is not always attuned,
2. OR that it is the personality that must do the attuning.
In this case, it requires a transformative shift, a catalyst, to move from its state of distractedness and confusion t one of attunement to the center.The “letting go” initial technique of the Daoists – later absorbed into Chan in my reading of history – is one possible catalyst for change, a yin method. But doesn’t change the nature of the transformative dynamic, i.e. the five shen that comprise the heart-mind are agreeing for whatever reason to focus inwardly on their root.
In this case, the five shen haven’t actually been truly “let go” – they just changed (=transformed) their behavior/perceptual process). We know this is true because the five senses continue to operate during and after sitting in “letting go” meditation. We know from sleep studies that the five senses/shen continue to record everything even while they are apparently “not functioning’ in the outer world. They are merely undergong transformation in the inner world, according to daoist dream theory.
3. OR that there is some other agent, not yet described, which is doing the attuning to center.
Love to hear your response on this point, bagua. Your position is very Chinese, by the way – let’s integrate the Three Ways, Dao, Chan, and Confucius. Can’t have any disagreement in the family…..
I have much more to say about the structure and function of ego, but not much point until we clear this up this mystery of WHO is attuning to the center.
michael
I believe it is a very interesting discussion of who is the ‘we’. For years I worked with patients having brain strokes. The most terrible aspect of it is not the paralysis of a part of the body but the ‘identity’ change of the person. The ‘who is’ has always fascinated me from that angle.
I saw my grandmother change into an empty vessel without any emotion because of a stroke right in the heart of her emotional brain center. She was no longer my grandmother but a breathing vessel.
I see the wife of my father-in-law change into a helpless child because of scar tissues on her brain. Not Alzheimer but she is not able any longer to connect words to objects. Like a child we have to help her recognize the outer world. She is no longer the proud woman we knew.
Who is…
I just add this from a practical view in daily life but I wonder when a practioner has a brain stroke what is left of all his practice, what kind of ‘consciousness’ is operating, if any, without the upper dantian in control as a watchtower without a light?Hi Michael:
Below your comments
While it might seem “intellectual” to have such a detailed Daoist map of the workings of hte body-mind,
the terminology was developed by the Daoists over millenia for a good reason: to be more skillful and profound in understanding the workings of humanity in its relation to Heaven and Earth. Such compelxity is fundamental to the practice of Chinese medicine – which has even more categories, because you NEED them to describe the variety of human phenomena. And the innumerable applications of this language – to medicine, martial arts, city planning, feng shui, astrology, etc. etc. arise because of the precision of the language. In short, the Daoist language empowers functonality.
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I would agree in general. But all of Chinese Medicine can be viewed as Yin-Yang and diagnosis and treatments can be based on Yin-Yang too. Often people get to caught up in the complexity of the models, especialy in alchemy, and get caught in the world of ideas, concepts and even fantasies, as long as the practice brings direct experience of our life and not concepts and ideas, it is good. I think Lao Zi promotes the simplicity approach. Having detailed descriptions can be good, as long as they do not become barriers to living in the moment, past or future in imaginations.The higher practices get simpler because you are dealng with core issues, the beginning practices (One Cloud’s First Formula) are complex because you are dealing with a vast complex of manifestation. Let’s not confuse the two, but see their continuity as Many and the One needing each other.
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The alchemy you teach does do this, but I just want people to know there are other legitimate methods that may have less steps and be simplier. For example, fusion 1 is a beautiful practice and very potent, effective and profound, another version is the “Five Cloud” Meditation, it is much simplier; one can say it is not as effective, I dont agree, but this is a very powerful practice too.If the premise of Chan is that you have to give up everything that your soul wants, you get a world full of philistines that might be simpler, but its would be far more boring and ugly – and ultimately less enlightened. Basically, Chan argument is that all human accomplishment, artistic genius, etc. is a deluded string of attachments.
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I cut out part of this example, sorry, just want to focus on one thing.
My understanding of Chan is that it is about one’s relationship to life, it is not about giving up everthing or not doing things, but how you relate to these transient things, in Lao Zi’s view, it is understanding the changing nature of life and not trying to own and hold these things.Its the extremes that teach wisdom and allow for true completion. The soul has desires that it expresses through the personality – without desire, its impossible to complete one’s mission/soul purpose.
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It is advisable we learn without going to extremes, this is always the advice of the elders, if we can not learn from non-extremes, then the extremes will be the vehicle for growth and learning. To take things to extremes, and if it becomes the motive to growth, this is the similar as “suffering or disatisfaction with one’s life” becomeing the motive for growth.I would like to summarize my experience of Chan, which I believe addresses all the remaining topics you mentioned. Also I think it is important to realize that not all Chan systems/schools/lineages are the same, and this goes for Tao teachers and schools. It is my experience some of the Korean Zen traditions are close to the Tao teachers, in that they are more relaxed about training.
Chan is very focused on one experience, Chan guides one to realize this experience of one’s true nature. It is not about focusing on the in-betweens, the processes, step-by-step, it is only focused on a person’s direct experience of their true nature. Taoist Alchemely, as you present it is about describing all the processes, all the steps, step by step, in a way its like therapy. I see the destination as the same, but the process as different. When a Chan Master and Dao Master meet, the sparkle in their eyes, their mutual smile and laughter are the realization that their true nature are the same.
I am not sure the western world will find dao alchemy more appealing than Buddhism, it has not happened yet. I have noticed one thing we all are confronted with, because we have lived with the basics theories, yin-yang, five phases and all its relationships, we assume others will accept them, I dont think lots of westerns will get over that hump, but Daoists will find it very appealing and I applaud you for you work.
I would like to create a thread on dao alchemy, a timeline of how the practices evolved, when, possible who, so we can take the mystery out of this.
Smiling in the Tao,
bagua
> Such compelxity is fundamental to the practice of Chinese medicine – which has even more categories, because you NEED them to describe the variety of human phenomena. And the innumerable applications of this language – to medicine, martial arts, city planning, feng shui, astrology, etc. etc. arise because of the precision of the language. In short, the Daoist language empowers functonality. >
Not sure who the above is quoting, but really like it.
I know from my own path, that once in complexity and real suffering .. serious illness, profound grief of loss of one’s life-partner, having frequent access to altered states yet having a strong dualistic-drive .. have presented me with a life that demands both:
zen simplicity presence
and
excruciatig detail in order to resolve very real functional issues.Its all a level of accomplishment that I’m clearly not up to by any stretch, yet am and ever was. Life is a steep learning curve.
p.s.
btw, I really appreciate the reminder “This Forum is for posting on topics of.. ” that displays at the top of the post-it screen. Well said.Keith,
I am so sorry to hear that you lost your partner. And, good to hear that you are able to use this loss/transition as grist for the mill.
Chris
Bagua,
The whole discussion we were having was about ego, what it is, and what it does more or less. You still didn’t answer Michael’s question. WHO IS THE “WE” THAT ATTUNES TO THE CENTER?
Fajin
Hello Fajin:
Oh. “We” is a choice of words, maybe not the best. By “We” I mean humans as a group.
Each person has a shen/spirit, the extension of Wu Ji/Creation that is in every person, this Spirit is the guiding force for each person to attune or detach from the Personalty/Ego that you refer, with this detachment we can perceive, experience and live from our true nature, this is realizing our immortal nature.
Once this insight is obtained, each person begins a process of releasing from the patterns and conditioning of their lives, the time it takes varies for each person, based on their lives, including the influences of society, parents, family, freinds, dna, etc. If Taoist Alchemy/Qi Gong/meditaiton assists or accelerates this process great, but it is not the only way and the Taoists have some many appraoches.
We do not destroy the Ego/Personality, we just see it for what it is and use it to allows us to function in society.Wu Ji Qi Gong, African Shaman Dance, Drumming, Tai Chi, Etc, all allow us to enter the “sacred space, Neutral space, emptiness/fullness space, etc”, the key is always the ability to apply it in one’s daily life, their normal, natural life, which is the sacred space.
As we cultivate this space, it becomes the predominant manifestion and guiding force of our life, the Ego/Personality will continue, but will have a healthy role in this awareness.
Have I answered your question?
Smiling in the Tao,
bagua
Hello Bagua,
This “we” that you used is the same as “I” but singular, not plural. If you say “we” humans, or “I” person it is the same. If you say “I” it is yourself, right? The five shen are all parts of the brain, but stored in the organs. When a patient has a heart transplant, she has a new identity, a new personality, a different person. This heart, from what we know stores two spirits, personal heart shen (postbirth), and original spirit (prebirth). From this, we know that the ego (self-consciousness or personality) is the “I” or plural, “we.” When you say to yourself, I think that is not a good idea, the “I” is the ego, which operates. The heart/xin/sympathetic is the commander behind your actions. I don’t want to get complicated with this because you like it to be simple, as simple as attuning to your center. This is only knowledge of the subtle anatomy.
I always saw Daoist nei dan as integrating your “total” self into one (pearl). Then, connecting this oneness, or essence of yourself to nature (sun-moon, stars, etc.).
This is adaptation, like water when it goes into a cup, or bottle, or anything, it adapts its shape to that of any object. When you detach from everything, you live in the NOW, or present moment and you adapt to every moment as well. Chan does empower functionality too, I understand what you mean by attuning to your sacred space, center, etc.Mantak Chia was talking about using your gut brain (center, sacred space, etc.) He said the neurons in the intestines are capable of dealing with emotions if you can train them too. So, I think the Chan approach is about placing your ego in the gut brain so that the “I” works from the center. This is what you mean by being functional in society from the center (earth/lower dantian). It is very down to earth, and placing the ego here one can attain inner realization.
Although, Daoists use a different approach and realization is not the same as spiritual immortality. I think that earth is here where we live (obviously), but heaven is a higher dimension. I hope this doesn’t complicate things for you, I too like it simple. Many paths try to get out of the head and go to heaven (higher dimension) without the body. Chan and Daoism both stay in the body and build a firm earthly foundation, then go to heaven with the body, transcending this dimension, not their body!
Fusing your essence and gradually bringing a stronger connection to nature with your essence will eventually allow one to transcend this dimension, no need to go out of the body. That is the most efficient way to get to heaven, to gradually connect with the Greater Self and nature until you strngthen spirit and create a light body. This light body is able to exist in the higher dimension, and will no longer need to stay here on this earth. I think that the next dimension has earth too, and you have to repeat the same process until you go to the next higher dimension successively. There are 9 realms of heaven, or 8 more dimensions after this one making it a total of 11 dimensions seeing that 11 is such a spiritual number.
So, I think that we must not detach from our ego and use another brain, we must use the heart brain and transform through our intent what we want to do. In Daoist alchemy, we intend to transform the ego into something that can function here on this plane/dimension and that can help us to see our true nature with ego, not another brain, then combine it with greater self and the cosmos/nature and transcend this peresent earth/heaven dimension with our body and move on to the next one. This is the intent of Daoist alchemy. The big difference is that Chan doesn’t integrate self with nature/cosmos, Daoist alchemy does.
Fajin
Hi Fajin:
Thanks for sharing your thinking, much appreciated.
The heart/xin/sympathetic is the commander behind your actions. I don’t want to get complicated with this because you like it to be simple, as simple as attuning to your center. This is only knowledge of the subtle anatomy.
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What is behind the Heart/Xin?I always saw Daoist nei dan as integrating your “total” self into one (pearl). Then, connecting this oneness, or essence of yourself to nature (sun-moon, stars, etc.).
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each person is always connected to the stars, moon, sun, etc, its only your ego that blocks this truth.Mantak Chia was talking about using your gut brain (center, sacred space, etc.) He said the neurons in the intestines are capable of dealing with emotions if you can train them too.
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I have alot of respect for M. Chia and some of the things he does and knows, but he says all kinds of things with no basis, he has presented in workshops that Jesus has a large penis, do you believe he knows this to be true?Although, Daoists use a different approach and realization is not the same as spiritual immortality. I think that earth is here where we live (obviously), but heaven is a higher dimension. I hope this doesn’t complicate things for you, I too like it simple. Many paths try to get out of the head and go to heaven (higher dimension) without the body. Chan and Daoism both stay in the body and build a firm earthly foundation, then go to heaven with the body, transcending this dimension, not their body!
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Lots of ideas, do you know this for a fact or is it something you read or choose to believe?Fusing your essence and gradually bringing a stronger connection to nature with your essence will eventually allow one to transcend this dimension, no need to go out of the body. That is the most efficient way to get to heaven, to gradually connect with the Greater Self and nature until you strngthen spirit and create a light body. This light body is able to exist in the higher dimension, and will no longer need to stay here on this earth. I think that the next dimension has earth too, and you have to repeat the same process until you go to the next higher dimension successively. There are 9 realms of heaven, or 8 more dimensions after this one making it a total of 11 dimensions seeing that 11 is such a spiritual number.
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Chinese always use numbers, I would not take them serious. You state “I think the next dimension….”, when you know let me know. Stop thinking and you will know my friend, but your Ego wont want to do this.So, I think that we must not detach from our ego and use another brain, we must use the heart brain and transform through our intent what we want to do. In Daoist alchemy, we intend to transform the ego into something that can function here on this plane/dimension and that can help us to see our true nature with ego, not another brain, then combine it with greater self and the cosmos/nature and transcend this peresent earth/heaven dimension with our body and move on to the next one. This is the intent of Daoist alchemy. The big difference is that Chan doesn’t integrate self with nature/cosmos, Daoist alchemy does.
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Ego only functions in this dimension, but you want to make it out to be more than its function, this is the heart of the matter and problem.We can go round and round, we can finish here or continue. I understand your words and your model, to me its just a formula, hopefully you will use it until you can throw this model/crutch away and fly free. Maybe we can fly free together?
“Spring comes, the grass grows by itself.” You are the spring and you are the grass, but your Ego will never understand this, but your essence that is always with you knows nothing else.
Smiling in the Tao,
baguaBagua,
This discussion is a long one, but that’s OK. I intend to finsih shortly. As a matter of fact, I’ve been enjoying this, have you?
The heart/xin, Personality, personal heart shen, postbirth spirit, monkey mind, sympathetic nervous system etc. are all the same thing – EGO!!!!!!! This is what I was trying to tell you from the very begininng, just go back and take a look. You weren’t getting it for the whole time, does this answer your original questions? (Ego from a daoist view first post). The ego functions in every dimension because without an ego you have no character, no personality, no mood, like a lifeless zombie!!!
Chan doesn’t do anything about the ego, except detach from it. Chan says, when you attach to “nothing”, you detach from everything. Nothing is the center or personal space, etc. Your gut brain is center, and Mantak Chia was experimented by scientists from Vienna who proved that intestines have neurons that can learn. I don’t know and don’t care if Jesus had a large penis. Daoists integrate the ego instead of detaching from it. You want to carry your ego into the next dimension along with all of your lesser shen organs. That is what it is all about. YOU INTEGRATE EVERYTHING YOU HAVE AND ARE CONNECTED TO INTO A PEARL AND TAKE IT WITH YOU IN THE NEXT DIMENSION INCLUDING YOUR BODY, it’s that simple. Doesn’t have to be complicated.
When you said, “lots of ideas” (etc.) about this talk about dimensions, I was confused. I practice inner alchemy to go to the higher planes, not to just be realized here on this earth and die. Christianity, Islam, Juddaism, wait until death for a judgement to see if we’ll go to heaven or hell. Yoga, tantra, etc. disregards body. They want to go to heaven without their bodies. This is not theory or something I read, this is basic knowledge. Forget the numerology, I may have complicated matters worse.
Also, ego doesn’t have to block truth. I know that we are connected to stars, sun-moon, etc., but we have to make a stronger connection to transcend. We can use ego to help with this rather than disregard it. Use what you have, your ego all shen, arms, legs, body, earth, heaven, air, everything that you are connected to and connect stronger to it. All paths I know of either try to destroy ego or disregard it or don’t use it as a positive thing, DAOISM DOES. In Daoism, we use everything we are connected to and make that connection stronger. Integrate everything into nothing, and take nothing with you into a higher plane. This is what we attune to the center, everything including ego.
Just as Egyptians did when pharaoh died, they put his belongings, organs, etc. near him so he can take it with him to heaven (4th dimension). Daoists put such a strong emphasis on longevity so we can integrate all these things as they take a rather long time. The immortals are there in the higher dimensions, I want to go there too, I hope I’m not being complicated with all this, I just want it to be simple. IT’S REALLY NOT COMPLICATED!!!
BTW, I really do enjoy this with you Bagua, keep spinning!!!
Fajin
hi Fajin:
I have enjoyed the discussion too and hope others find it interesting and in some way beneficial.
I understand your understanding in the post, we just disagree on certain things, no more variations of explaining it will change my view at this time.
I understand your definition of EGO, i just disagree what it is. Are you saying when you are in deep meditaion or when playing sports and are in the “zone” or are being creative painting or dancing, or are making love, your ego is active, in control, or are you in a non-ego space?
Please read Tao Teh Ching again, is he talking about an Ego driven place?
“The ego functions in every dimension because without an ego you have no character, no personality, no mood, like a lifeless zombie!!!”
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This is were we disagree. If you are living in Wu Wei, is the ego active?Chan doesn’t do anything about the ego, except detach from it. Chan says, when you attach to “nothing”, you detach from everything.
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Just like Tao terminoloy, which can be very vague, ambigous and often in deep metaphor, Chan is like this too. Nothing does not mean literally nothing, it means “Wu Wei”, nothing extra.They do not seek to literally destroy ego, they allow one to see it for what it is. The problem with us is we disagree with what the ego is, im willing to except this my friend.
Daoists integrate the ego instead of detaching from it. You want to carry your ego into the next dimension along with all of your lesser shen organs.That is what it is all about. YOU INTEGRATE EVERYTHING YOU HAVE AND ARE CONNECTED TO INTO A PEARL AND TAKE IT WITH YOU IN THE NEXT DIMENSION INCLUDING YOUR BODY, it’s that simple. Doesn’t have to be complicated.
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I understand what you are saying, no further need to explain it; thank you.After you die please contact me and let me know if you found this to be true, ok?
When you said, “lots of ideas” (etc.) about this talk about dimensions, I was confused. I practice inner alchemy to go to the higher planes, not to just be realized here on this earth and die. Christianity, Islam, Juddaism, wait until death for a judgement to see if we’ll go to heaven or hell. Yoga, tantra, etc. disregards body. They want to go to heaven without their bodies. This is not theory or something I read, this is basic knowledge. Forget the numerology, I may have complicated matters worse.
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Do you think you are complete now? Do you think you are part of an eternal universe? do you think your spirit can be destroyed?My understanding of Chan theory and experience is that we are complete now, there is nothing extra to day except being in the present moment, out of control thinking mind/intellect, and the ego taking one everywhere but here and now, the goal is to see thinking mind for thinking mind, ego for ego, trees for trees, sun for sun and spring turn to summer as what they are, no more no less.
Oh the ego does not like this, there has got to be a superior way, better way and unique way, mine is better than theirs way, ah, when they see what I have they will come and do it my way. This kind of thing happens.
Just as Egyptians did when pharaoh died, they put his belongings, organs, etc. near him so he can take it with him to heaven (4th dimension).
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Please dont use this as a healhy example, the chinese killed and buried many people with their emperors’, how horrible and cruel.Daoists put such a strong emphasis on longevity so we can integrate all these things as they take a rather long time.
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The daoist teachings I know want to live their alloted time, dont want to live a life that decreases their years. They want to live a natural life.The immortals are there in the higher dimensions, I want to go there too, I hope I’m not being complicated with all this, I just want it to be simple. IT’S REALLY NOT COMPLICATED!!!
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Your words and theory is clear, it does not mean you are clear in your understanding and direct experience. Arent’t the immortals with you here and now? Why go some where else. Do you find the Tao in your every day life?Smiling in the Tao,
bagua
Bagua,
Well, certainly this has been an interesting discussion and I now wish to end it.
I said, “when you attach to nothing, you detach from everything.” Yes, I know that nothing is the nothingness, so you are attaching to something yet nothing, this is wu-wei. Glad that you re-interpreted it better!
Now, where we disagree about ego I will try to explain. When ego is activated, your emotions arise, and if they are negative, an ego-driven place is the last thing we want. However, if you transform the emotions into positive emotions, the ego is a good thing, a plus. You must remember that the personal heart shen controls the other organ shen and emotions and so from positive emotions, the ego is really a bad name, it is more like your wisdom mind that is doing the actions. That is, when negative emotions rule the personal heart shen is likened as the egotistical center and when positive emotions like love, kindness, calmness rule, the personal heart shen is a sort of wisdom mind or creative mind (you get the idea).
So really, the ego and the wisdom mind are the same, it is just the emotions that make the personal heart shen act like an ego or wisdom mind. Please don’t tell me, where did you get this info from or that I am in over my head because this is from my accumulated knowledge of subtle anatomy and Daoism, not a certain text. I knew this from the start of our discussion, but throughout this discussion I learned how to express my realization of this. Thank you for opening this discussion, it has helped me.
What I was saying about Chan was that they try to stay away from emotions, wether positive or negative and through this, the ego does not bother you. Although, you are not integrating everything you have. Rather, you could have a character that doesn’t overshadow or surpress you, but helps you. It’s really about intent of doing something about the ego or going straight to emptiness, wu-wei. Why not integrate the ego? Make it something positive, as a creative mind or wisdom mind. Use your heart. You also said, if we live in wu-wei, is the ego non-active? Yes, it is non-active but do you want to detach from it, or rather turn to it and make it your creative center or wisdom center like I’ve said.
About this whole thing about Daoist Immortality, you don’t have to believe that you can live your life in higher dimensions, I choose too. If you think that life is just about being natural, simple and living in the present moment, then live it. I think it’s about completion of the self, integrating everything into one, and going beyond. Being consistent constantly will get you to heaven in this life, not the next. You don’t have to wait until death. If something supernatural like this seems like a bunch of hocus-pocus then don’t go there. You perceive it to be that way, so be it. You also said, why go somewhere else? It is just a result of stronger connection to cosmos (but first integration of self comes), just as strong bones are a result of rooting to the earth. The Daoist formulas are simple enough, and they will set you free. I hope you know what you’re missing though, and I await your final reply, if you want to.
Best regards,
Fajin
Hi fajin:
Thanks for participating in this discusson, your presentation is very clear and I appreciate you taking the time to share, rarely is this type of clarity and depth discussed in public. I have learned from you.
Thanks,
bagua
The Daoist formulas are simple enough, and they will set you free. I hope you know what you’re missing though
No formulas can set you free. They will help you at the begining on your Path but that’s about it. Plus, why do you think Bagua has no experience with Taoist formulas?So really, the ego and the wisdom mind are the same, it is just the emotions that make the personal heart shen act like an ego or wisdom mind.
I can see why Bagua is sometimes frustrated to make comments to your posts, but he has the best and kindest responses I’ve read so far. I could never be so gentle.
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