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September 13, 2006 at 12:40 am #18044Nei DanParticipant
I’ve read several Taoist books that make references to Taoist Sorcery, Magic and Talismans and how it involves the communication/pact with gods, demons, elementals, spirits, etc… I was raised to think that communication with lower/evil spirits was a bad thing. I don’t see it as a negative thing to ask for help from gods but demons???. I have also read about this with Enochian Magic. Where the practitioner INVOKES/CONTROLS these “cacodemons” to carry out some magic. These practices are refered to as sacred so why all the dealing with lower entities?
I have recently made Taoism my path. I have chosen to adopt and apply the ideals, morals and practices of Taoism in my life. (Sorcery, Magic and Talismans) is the one area of Taoism that I’m not comfortable with. Maybe I’m just ignorant on this subject. Why would a Taoist be involved is such practices? Is there something I am missing here?
Although this post is for Michael Winn I welcome ALL to contribute and help enlighten me on this subject.
Your insight and knowledge are greatly appreciated. Thanks.
Here are some links on the subject:
Chinese Taoist Sorcery : The Art of Getting Even (Paperback) by Min Tzu:
Chinese Taoist Sorcery – Table of Contents:
http://www.sacred-magick.com/Main.html?http://www.sacred-magick.com/map/cts_index.html
Magick, Shamanism and Taoism by Richard Herne:
Tao Magic: The Secret Language of Diagrams and Calligraphy by Laszlo Legeza, Ireneus Laszlo Legeza:
September 13, 2006 at 2:04 am #18045pemaParticipantNei dan,
I can’t speak to the Taoist perspective on this, but I suspect it is similar to the following Western perspective.
In the Western Magickal tradition, there comes a point where one takes the oath of obligation. It’s somewhat like a very serious bodhisatta vow, in which you commit to completing the ‘Great Work’ and acting ONLY for the benefit of beings. Usually the vow entails phrases like ‘should I transgress this oath should all of my magickal weapons turn against me, etc.’ It’s a strong statement and brings up a good point. There are some very powerful tools out there. In a healthy tradition, someone guiding you didn’t give you the powertools until you had proved yourself and committed to positive action. Unfortunately there is a tendency for tradtions to degrade and for folks to begin conteything and when you start using strong magickal techniques, they REALLY start affecting everything. Thus, to use Western terms, actions are either in service to all or in service of ‘demonic self’ (one acting selfishly out of ignorance.) In defining magick, you could describe it as ANY act of will, which then leads to the statement “May all of my actions be to benefit all beings.’ Then one goes about deepening wisdom to understand what is actually ‘real’, who is ‘willing’ and what is truly beneficial to all beings, and how to go about doing that. This is what the Western folks call the Great Work or the process of enlightenment: awakening completely and being of service through broader means. That being said, there are loads of instances in the Western tradition (and maybe most traditions) of people perverting the techniques meant to enlighten and serve all into methods for strengthening and serving a ‘demonic self.’ In the end though, the stronger the magickal methods that the black magicians use it seems the stronger the blow back is and eventually they get the message through suffering. It can take awhile and can cause trouble for all involved. I’ve seen it a few times.
So, I suspect that in the many different strains of Taoism, there are some that are more alchemical and oriented to awakening and service, and there are some that have denegrated into other motives. As you look through the different strains of Taoism, listen to your own inner discernment for what resonates as true and right for you. You don’t have to take ALL of Taoism, all of the different schools as truth. If your innards are telling you that black sorcery isn’t for you, that’s a good thing. Keep cultivating your true inner earth.
Hope that helps,
Pema
September 13, 2006 at 2:04 am #18047pemaParticipantNei dan,
I can’t speak to the Taoist perspective on this, but I suspect it is similar to the following Western perspective.
In the Western Magickal tradition, there comes a point where one takes the oath of obligation. It’s somewhat like a very serious bodhisatta vow, in which you commit to completing the ‘Great Work’ and acting ONLY for the benefit of beings. Usually the vow entails phrases like ‘should I transgress this oath should all of my magickal weapons turn against me, etc.’ It’s a strong statement and brings up a good point. There are some very powerful tools out there. In a healthy tradition, someone guiding you didn’t give you the powertools until you had proved yourself and committed to positive action. Unfortunately there is a tendency for tradtions to degrade and for folks to begin contemplating what they call ‘grey magic’ or even outright ‘black magic.’ The grey magic folk claim that you can do things to benefit yourself if it doesn’t harm or negatively affect other beings (thus not white i.e. for the benefit of all, and not black i.e. harming others.)
Nice try… but from my limited experience all actions affect everything and when you start using strong magickal techniques, they REALLY start affecting everything. Thus, to use Western terms, actions are either in service to all or in service of ‘demonic self’ (one acting selfishly out of ignorance.) In defining magick, you could describe it as ANY act of will, which then leads to the statement “May all of my actions be to benefit all beings.’ Then one goes about deepening wisdom to understand what is actually ‘real’, who is ‘willing’ and what is truly beneficial to all beings, and how to go about doing that. This is what the Western folks call the Great Work or the process of enlightenment: awakening completely and being of service through broader means. That being said, there are loads of instances in the Western tradition (and maybe most traditions) of people perverting the techniques meant to enlighten and serve all into methods for strengthening and serving a ‘demonic self.’ In the end though, the stronger the magickal methods that the black magicians use it seems the stronger the blow back is and eventually they get the message through suffering. It can take awhile and can cause trouble for all involved. I’ve seen it a few times.
So, I suspect that in the many different strains of Taoism, there are some that are more alchemical and oriented to awakening and service, and there are some that have denegrated into other motives. As you look through the different strains of Taoism, listen to your own inner discernment for what resonates as true and right for you. You don’t have to take ALL of Taoism, all of the different schools as truth. If your innards are telling you that black sorcery isn’t for you, that’s a good thing. Keep cultivating your true inner earth.
Hope that helps,
Pema
September 13, 2006 at 1:33 pm #18049NnonnthParticipant– recently recommended by Max. In this book a lineage taoist master heals a village of cholera by means of a sigil, and does various other ‘magics’. I have also mentioned my favourite writer on western magic, Draja Mickaharic, and his healing practices and so forth. I myself have have done entity work and will do so again I expect. The objections to it are the same as the objections to martial arts as an accompaniment to the spiritual; mistaken. All these things are tools. Great power brings great responsibility. You can handle it or you can’t, yadda yadda yadda.
Of course if you don’t *want* to do something, don’t do it!
NN
September 13, 2006 at 6:34 pm #18051Nei DanParticipantI read ‘Opening the Dragon Gate’ and it is one of my favorite. I have yet to used/practice magic or sorcery to do good work. I have no objections or fears in using magic/sorcery for good, but when it involves demons its hard to see how the magic can be used for good. I’m confused as to why these Taoist sages will associate with demons or evil entities. Maybe my perception/idea of a demon is wrong..??? :/ My ideas of a demons comes from my childhood teachings of Catholicism.
Can you clairify this Good Sorcerer to Evil Entity relationship? And why would a demon want to help and do good work? Maybe pay karmic debt? Can you recommend some more books on the subject? 🙂 Thanks again for your insight.September 13, 2006 at 6:44 pm #18053NnonnthParticipant>>My ideas of a demons comes from my childhood teachings of Catholicism.<<
Well with due respect that may be the problem!
Alot of the things called demons are simply things religions have no use for. That does not mean they are 'evil'.
I think instead of recommending more books and blah di blah, I would just say follow your heart and your conscience and your bliss, and don't worry what other people do. Having said that, Franz Bardon's 'The Practice of Magical Evocation' might interest you if you don't know it. You could also look the word 'demon' up in ancient Greek…
NN
September 13, 2006 at 8:07 pm #18055Nei DanParticipant“>>My ideas of a demons comes from my childhood teachings of Catholicism.<<
Well with due respect that may be the problem! "Your right I think that is a problem. Which is why i'm seeking information on the subject. I'm using my resources( internet, books, people ) to gain some insight on the subject before I even consider practicing. I prefer to use my left( Logic ) and right( Intuition ) brain hemispheres when making a decision. If I use my "heart and your conscience and your bliss" to make a decision on this subject im afraid it will largley be based on my old knowledge(Catholicism) of this subject. I'm am not Catholic anymore and no longer subscribe to its dogma. Although their are some areas like this one where I have no other reference point to go by. All I know about demons is based on what I learned from Catholicism. Which again, is why im re-educating myself on the subject now. With a more open mind I hope to gather knowledge from many cultures and teachings on sorcery/magic. Once I gather this "Logical" data I can then make a more "Intuitive" decision whether I want work with Sorcery/Magic.
I will look into 'The Practice of Magical Evocation'. You have already help me by recommending to look up the greek definition. Thank you.
dai·mon (dmn) also de·mon or dae·mon (dmn)
n. Greek Mythology
1. An inferior deity, such as a deified hero.
2. An attendant spirit; a genius.2. daemon – a person who is part mortal and part god
September 14, 2006 at 6:13 am #18057Michael WinnKeymasterThe question here is one of intent (i.e. will). The alchemical practices are focused on restoring old patterns or creating new patterns in the personal and collective chi field of unity (yuan) ,balance (yin-yang), and harmony (five phases). I personally do not practice formal magic, and even in doing healing work keep to the alchemical model and attempt to activate the alchemical process in the client rather than invoking elemental forces that will come in and do the job.
The tools a magician use employ exactly the same principles, only they are directed at a particular end. If the end is selfish (in the negative sense) and harms others, the effects are mirrored back to the magician – but others meanwhile may have suffered.
A lot of what is called magic in the Taoist magical traditions is simply what medicine or politics is trying to do – restore health and create abundance. But there are famous “demon busters” who work with the dark side and can turn it towards “good” ends. This is a legitimate part of learning to harmonize the dark and light sides, rather than merely exploiting the dark side for personal power. And of course China is filled with tales of black magicians who abuse that power, or attempt to.
As N says, just focus on fulfilling your destiny and cultivating your essence, and the issue will not become a problem. Certainly I wouldn’t let it slow me down from diving in deeper.
michael
September 14, 2006 at 2:54 pm #18059NnonnthParticipant>>If I use my “heart and your conscience and your bliss” to make a decision on this subject im afraid it will largley be based on my old knowledge(Catholicism) of this subject. I’m am not Catholic anymore and no longer subscribe to its dogma.<>All I know about demons is based on what I learned from Catholicism. Which again, is why im re-educating myself on the subject now.<>Once I gather this “Logical” data I can then make a more “Intuitive” decision whether I want work with Sorcery/Magic.<>dai·mon (dmn) also de·mon or dae·mon (dmn)
n. Greek Mythology
1. An inferior deity, such as a deified hero.
2. An attendant spirit; a genius.2. daemon – a person who is part mortal and part god<<
Yeah, my point here being, these are not beings that are necessarily 'evil' nor indeed necessarily 'good' – they are, so to speak, just folks. If King Solomon could do this so can we!
NN
September 14, 2006 at 9:26 pm #18061pemaParticipantNei dan,
This quote from Michael summarizes my basic point:
The tools a magician use employ exactly the same principles, only they are directed at a particular end. If the end is selfish (in the negative sense) and harms others, the effects are mirrored back to the magician – but others meanwhile may have suffered.
I am relatively young on the path, but I have seen tools employed from a scewed intention bounce back ferociously. The basic cultivation practices may seen boring or less flashy than some of the ‘power tools’ or high invocations, but they lay an excellent foundation that is necessary. Continuity of daily practice is useful. In my opinion its worth the effort of harmonizing and integrating yourself at a basic level and gradually increasing your scope of activity. You can go to Barnes and Noble and get a ‘how to book’ that teaches some ‘inner order’ stuff that is pretty heavy, but those unintegrated parts may be unknowingly steering the show (which can lead to some wonky effects). You can also invoke more energy than you can integrate. This can lead to physical health problems (seen it a lot) or to mental splits. It can be a high stakes game. I agree with the other two, that focusing on cultivation is a good way: the other stuff WILL open in time. For a smoother ride, don’t generate more than you can integrate. Some folks like the roller coaster ride, but I think its a good idea to know what your getting into. Glad your so interested in the path 🙂
Pema
September 15, 2006 at 11:58 am #18063NnonnthParticipantSeptember 22, 2006 at 12:00 am #18065Nei DanParticipant -
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