Home › Forum Online Discussion › Philosophy › the question of ‘truncated traditions’?
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November 3, 2007 at 1:10 am #25633DogParticipant
Hey jsun. Getting back to you.
Almost everything is disconnected from the history, and its Alchemical, Magical back ground. From why we have seven days a week, to theater, science, religion, symbols, sayings, I am mainly talking about the west as the dark ages really turned the lights out on the west. Most of the civilization builders where/are Alchemists/Magicians. This has Christians hating Magician when of course they had a rich Magical tradition themselves, of course that tradition was still around at the top levels even when they where killing witches. Allot of tradition are not complete in my opinion until they regain their Alchemical/magical understanding.November 3, 2007 at 6:05 am #25634jsunParticipant… actually the more I look at the Christian tradition in terms of actual teachings for self-development, the more I admire it. My problem with it has always been how incredibly mixed up in *politics* it was… plus its disastrous repudiation of nature, the body, etc. The other problem is, the teachings for self-development aren’t actually, like, taught to anybody! What’s taught is following without understanding, that indeed is ‘truncated’!
Yes I’m with you in all you say, days of the week and so forth. It is indeed ironic that cathedrals have alchemy written into them when most people occupying the cathedrals don’t believe in alchemy!… in this sense the architecture, etc., is indeed inspired by genuine things, at any rate from the Gothic period. Also the renaissance – Raphael’s ‘Anisdei Madonna’, now in London, has Hermetic sigils on the hem of the virgin’s robe – but after the so-called ‘enlightenment’ this kind of thing dried up and is not going on now though I guess!
I still feel if one hung around a genuine isolated christian monastery for any length of time one might see some interesting things. Who knows?
Like Taoism during the cultural revolution a good deal of it went underground. The renaissance alchemists were able to use the ancient iconographies with a great degree of understanding, so it appears that alchemy is able to regenerate itself to some extent, as if it is stored in the DNA of the culture. On the other hand there are interesting stories throughout western lore, and middle eastern lore, showing just how fraught all the arguments were the whole time, between the ‘letter of the law’ and the actual spirit of it, the truth.
Albertus Magnus, the great Christian alchemist, had some of his work destroyed by his pupil Thomas Aquinas, who thought he was trying to usurp God. Abraham Abulafia, the great Jewish kabbalist, was excommunicated by several of his fellow rabbis for the same reason… even though he managed somehow to get away with trying to convert the pope to Judaism! Giordano Bruno, who tried to convert a different pope to Hermetics, was not so lucky… amongst the reasons he was burned at the stake were his beliefs that Christ was not God but merely an unusually skilful magician, that the Holy Ghost is the soul of the world, that the Devil will be saved, etc. All good stuff from my point of view but against the letter of the law, so it has to go. Not to mention that the earth moves and the sun just is another star… Bruno was very much onto something, unfortunately he was not *allowed* to be onto it, and that’s what I mean by politics, not to mention simple cruelty.
So it seems to me that the truth survived although it was constantly persecuted in the west – you’re right, during the dark ages Europe was a backwater, and what arose after that contained the seeds of excellence but was at every turn forced to defend itself against ignorance. Whether it’s Fludd, Boehme, Agrippa – Crowley! He was raised a Christian fundamentalist – anyone who even referenced something interesting was instantly accused of heresy and witchcraft, which made it in practice very hairy to even contemplate it – some bishop would come out in support, be hushed by a hundred others, have to retract or burn… etc.
But I think one shouldn’t lose sight of the fact that whilst all of this was going on, not only was good work being done that we’ll never know about (how else did the tradition survive?) but in addition many influences were still alive in the countryside that allowed certain things to survive… nowadays we are so lucky all this stuff is coming out, just as in the HT so in the west too.
Interesting! j
November 3, 2007 at 10:25 am #25636snowlionParticipantHi Dog,
This post brings a important topic that most never want to face that their is a Mystic path to most belief systems. I believe it was squashed from modern times because it feel’s more safe with a nice tidy version, and more control. Below are some correalations that Religous Scholar Huston Smith has pointed out during a class on “All the Worlds Religons”:
All spirtual truths have one thing in common is to “achieve transendence”; They achieved transendence via “Mystery Schools” that was parrallel to their belief:
The teachings of the Buddha followed Chan/Zen; Hinduism followed path’s of the Yogi’s and Hindu Tantra. Daoist Religous sects, Dzogchen Traditions, Tibetan Tantric Paths follow Daoist Cultivation & Daoist Mystic Paths. Christianity followed the teachings of Gnosticism; Islamics followed Sufism and Judaism followed the teachings of the “Kaballah” and the teachings of Platonism aka “Plato’s Republic” followed an inner tradition of Platonism which utilized Hermetic Alchemy, which Carl Jung expanded on later.
For sure without the “Embodied Path”(parallel path), a Path for Transcendence; it is incomplete.
SLNovember 3, 2007 at 10:54 am #25638jsunParticipant… that a religious scholar is writing about this! At least he may get more people involved in understanding that, as you say, there is a reality behind ‘beliefs’.
The list you give, is it his? 🙂 It is a very bizarre list.
Buddha FOLLOWED zen???? ‘Platonism’ is to do with Plato’s ‘Republic’? I can’t believe a scholar wrote that!The exoteric teachings of any religion were NEVER EVER what the religion was based upon. Religion was always based on direct experience and indeed science, direct apprehension of universal truth in other words, but afterwards only on descriptions of that truth, not on the truth itself. It is taking a long, long, LONG time for scholars to realize this!
We’ve thankfully reached a stage where taoist practices are beginning to be regarded as a better way to understand tao te ching than reading it and ‘thinking about it’… perhaps one day platonism and judaism and all the rest will be seen the same way. But I’m not holding my breath. To see how the texts of Greek philosophers even now are being completely murdered by scholars who have not a prayer of understanding them is a little saddening – but at least it has the effect of prompting them to unearth more texts to talk about, and more interesting things are found every day. j
November 3, 2007 at 2:58 pm #25640StevenModeratorI once had the fortune to speak at length
with a woman who had once been a Carmelite
nun in a monastery that left shortly before
taking final vows of commitment.Among many interesting things that were related
to me, I was informed that the version of
Christianity practiced behind closed doors
by the members of the upper echelon is much
richer than the “watered down, truncated” version
that is presented to the masses.In addition to all of the “standard” Catholic/Christian
practices that one might imagine people might do
in a monastery, a lot of the seniors (and some
of the novices instructed by the seniors) spend
their time studying esoteric Christian texts
that are not readily available to the public.
All fitting into a framework that is
consistent with “typical” Christian teachings,
apparently they have an understanding
of a framework where reincarnation of the
human soul occurs, how to connect with
the essence of God directly through deep
meditation and other mystical techniques,
various methods of divination–including things
that are similar to Tarot, and more! In addition,
many of them actually practice these things in the
monastery–although they often even keep them hidden
from the new postulants and less experienced novices.While many of these things are not thought
to be Christian (by the general public), apparently
there are secret Christian versions that are
studied and practiced–and are kept hidden
from the general public!The feeling I was given was that only the
“worthy”, i.e. the people willing to sacrifice
themselves to the cloistered contemplative
life would be given access to this information–and
some of which would only be revealed after the
novices had committed themselves to the monastery
life for a period of time, i.e. once it was
believed that the person would take their final
vows and never again reenter public life.The other viewpoint on this that was given to me
was the belief by these people that this
“advanced information” was being held back, because
of the belief that ordinary people wouldn’t be
able to emotionally/spiritually handle some of
these “advanced truths”. It was as if the idea
was that they believe that the general populace
just needs some basic simplified version where
they are told what to do, so that they can
just go to church once a week, follow a program, and
feel good about themselves that they are doing
what’s needed–and that if they were exposed to
the real picture/the big picture, then they wouldn’t
be able to handle it–that emotionally and spiritually
they wouldn’t be able to handle the complete truth.S
November 3, 2007 at 3:30 pm #25642jsunParticipant… that’s why I said in my original reply to Dog: “I still feel if one hung around a genuine isolated christian monastery for any length of time one might see some interesting things”! As I said when you look into esoteric Christianity there is definitely something there. Dog mentioned that higher-level Christians have always had magical techniques, so why did they burn Giordano Bruno?
The monastery tradition does indeed forbid alot of these techniques exiting the walls, and there are many non-christian traditions in the west that are similar. My information also is that these traditions are linked and that sometimes quite friendly relations exist between traditional healers, hermetics, abbots in monasteries, clergy, etc. I mentioned once I’d like a peek in the vatican library one day, by one means or another…
Why this all has to be hidden, I really have no idea! I think the second reason you give, Steven, is the important one:
>>because
of the belief that ordinary people wouldn’t be
able to emotionally/spiritually handle some of
these “advanced truths”. …and that if they were exposed to
the real picture/the big picture, then they wouldn’t
be able to handle it–that emotionally and spiritually
they wouldn’t be able to handle the complete truth.<<… we've seen the misguided nature of that approach in, for example, that youtube vid Stephen posted of the 'christian warrior woman'! Michael says the time for secrecy is drawing to a close and I agree… not necessarily on the highest and biggest things, but for sure on *some* things, I really think people should be given a break!
I really don't think we should suppose that every local pastor or vicar is in possession of arcane alchemical knowledge or something… 🙂 What I am sure is true is that the various monasteries remain repositories of things of great importance. To what extent *any* of the clergy understands them all, I'm not sure – some know something though, I do know that for certain.
It is bizarre to me to a high degree that, all this being so, basic doctrine is what it is in the exoteric christian church, and moreover, that they regularly have burned throughout their history even 'heretics' like Bruno who actually are not saying anything a real practitioner wouldn't know. (The church didn't apologize for Bruno's murder until John Paul II's day BTW.) Similar problems occur with people like Joan of Arc, and I guess Christ himself ironically might be considered by some to be the original of these!
'The church' is definitely not 'all one thing'. I remain convinced of the value of living a full human life outside a monastery and have ample evidence that high spiritual attainment is possible… but it does make one curious doesn't it? Perhaps one day I will be able to take a peak… naughty me. j
November 3, 2007 at 5:03 pm #25644StevenModerator>>I mentioned once I’d like a peek in the vatican library one day, by one means or another…
We would all expect a full report, of course 🙂
Steven
November 3, 2007 at 5:31 pm #25646snowlionParticipant**The list you give, is it his? 🙂 It is a very bizarre list.
Buddha FOLLOWED zen???? ‘Platonism’ is to do with Plato’s ‘Republic’? I can’t believe a scholar wrote that!**I believe what he refering to is that “The teachings of the Buddha” had evolved and that adherents parallely followed actually Chan/Zen, with the Orthodox religon.
Inner teachings are understood to follow orthodox religon/spirtual path; it helps the
student to reach transcedence..which many paths in todays quantum science worlds are missing. Huston Smith is more of a sage than an egghead honestly.My Daoist Master that lived many years in California & Oregon Mountains often taught
even Daoism as a system was a two part expierence “orthodox religous path” & “esoteric path” one complimented the other..but it was incomplete without one side missing.He believed any orthodox religon was in perfect alignment with Daoist inner practices.
Below is a nice talk by Huston Smith
SLhttp://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5723928558446879967&q=huston+smith&
November 3, 2007 at 7:48 pm #25648StevenModeratorI quite enjoyed that video actually.
Huston Smith is very insightful.BTW, did you catch the bit near the end of the video
about Christians believing in reincarnation for the
first few hundred years until deemed a “heresy”? This is
ironic considering the post I made below!It’s funny how the deeply religious–like the monasteries–
didn’t drop any of this supposed “heretical” material . . .
maybe because in fact it is not heretical 🙂S
November 3, 2007 at 7:48 pm #25650jsunParticipant… yeah he does seem a lovely person! Nice interview there, I will look at the whole thing when I can.
>>Buddha FOLLOWED zen???? ‘Platonism’ is to do with Plato’s ‘Republic’? I can’t believe a scholar wrote that!**
I believe what he refering to is that “The teachings of the Buddha” had evolved and that adherents parallely followed actually Chan/Zen, with the Orthodox religon.<>Inner teachings are understood to follow orthodox religon/spirtual path; it helps the
student to reach transcedence..which many paths in todays quantum science worlds are missing. Huston Smith is more of a sage than an egghead honestly.<>My Daoist Master that lived many years in California & Oregon Mountains often taught
even Daoism as a system was a two part expierence “orthodox religous path” & “esoteric path” one complimented the other..but it was incomplete without one side missing.<>He believed any orthodox religon was in perfect alignment with Daoist inner practices.<<Interestingly, I think that is probably true of any inner practice which is scientific in nature.
j
November 3, 2007 at 8:18 pm #25652snowlionParticipantNovember 4, 2007 at 3:16 am #25654DogParticipantMy short over view of what happened is that forges started being used for war hammers and thunder bolts instead of making farming tools and gold. It was known that Alchemy and magical powers where the powers, still are. They tried to not let the secrets fall into wrong hands but it just started to become overly masculine, very machismo. It never realy became apart of the simple life. It stayed in the upper levels for a long time. It is starting to come down, especialy in buisness which makes since if you know how secret astrology and magic is used. I like a guy Jordan Maxwell he has great little tid bits, we part ways on some things, but he gives a good idea of how Alchemy and Magic are apart of the power game and how these traditions relate back to Eygpt.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5368249979680883398&hl=en
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