[dragonbones]

p.s.

the last of the 6 yogas of naropa is that of powa: consciousness transference… shooting the essence of consciousness out of the head into the emptiness of clear light (or maybe a “favorable rebirth”). i don’t see how this is a desirable spiritual goal – it seems like going right back to sqaure one. and for those practicing these yogas, couldn’t such a technique lead to severe diassociation between body and mind? (as might the illusory body meditation, for example) i have heard one must do long-life practices in preparation for powa… otherwise it can destroy one’s health.

sometimes i feel a bit overwhelmed by doubts when exploring spiritual cultivation techniques, as often each school seems to feel it’s goals are the highest and then compare all other school and goals to its own.

***

i am just posting all these ponderings since i am curious what those more experienced in these practices than me would have to say about it…

[dragonbones]

My thoughts at the moment:

Looking at his website, I feel that he is viewing this from a certain perspective rooted in the Buddhist approach, the goal of which is a certain “enlightenment”, and comparing all esoteric systems to this approach. I am not so sure all “enlightenments” are the same.

“Emptiness” has it’s role, but so does “Form”, and for me it is sickness to place emptiness over form, since they love each other equally. When I see texts espousing the formless over formed, I feel an intense distrust and aversion in my heart. I am not sure how much of this is “blockage”, but I feel it goes deeper than that. I was practicing emptiness meditations, as in last december when I realized “all is essenceless”. But I was discounting the my earth aspects, and that’s one reason my experiences shook me up so much, because they showed me a more whole experience of my psyche, which included many repressed things.

Based on my “deepest” meditations, I feel that every Buddha is reborn. That the formless loves the formed, and by “dissolving into the all”, one unites with that which is undissolved – thus being paradoxically “separate”. It took no “karma” for this all to begin; why should it all end once “karma” has ceased? The secret is beyond such duality, it is non-causal and unknown. I feel that heaven and earth are courting to birth a child, and it is possible to catch glimpses of that child. To me, returning to that, finding that, has always been the goal. These “enlightenments” that dismiss the great unknown of incarnation itself — are incomplete.

I studied some of the six yogas of Naropa last winter, particularly the dream-yoga and illusory-body oriented practices. But I always felt that “on the other end” of the emptiness, beyond the void, there was something — something so alien and otherly, something impossible, the only thing i’ve ever known..where i came from… beckoning. This is what I am calling “a glimpse of that child”.

Does anybody know what I mean? It’s not something that causal, linear, 3d time and space bound language easily lend to. I am mixing up different levels, or is there really something more?

Yesterday I experienced a subtle illumination right after spending a good while in a deep resotrative meditation. As I opened my eyes I was rather astonished at the world – suddenly the formless ocean of dreaming lights crystallized and coalesced into all sorts of colors, objects, relations… At first this was unsettling, I could have easily stayed in that silent sea before all these things. For a moment, I felt the gnostic dread of “spirit trapped in matter”, but then this quickly opened to something else. I realized from the perspective of matter-imbued-with-spirit, there may be this sense of being “trapped” – But for spirit-without-matter, matter is the most amazing, wildest trip around. The greatest gift of all! I mean, how could this be? It’s so impossible and strange, so sexy. It’s like finally being able to see yourself in the mirror. Without matter, “god” is lonely. The daimonic spirit realm is but a shadow without matter to reflect upon it.

ALL THE BEST,
dragonbones

[dragonbones]

Your experiences are classic experiences of “kundalini awakening” at
the
stage of the chi mai being cleared.
With retention of the semenal force (jing, brahmacharya) and sufficient
mediotation/cultviation practice of the right
type, jing can trasnform into chi and open up the chi channels. Hence
your
experiences. This is the same sequence
as in yoga, Taoism, Buddhism, Tantra, Tibetan Buddhism, etc. Nothing
new or
different. Unfortunately, you
stopped before the chi could clear open your chi channels. Forceful
cultivation techniques over short periods of time, without emtpiness
meditation, usually provoke the “fierce” response you felt. Longer
cultivation of emptiness ahead of such experiences
usually pre-opens the chi mai so that your experiences are less
extreme.
Once again, nothing new or mystical. It’s just science.

There’s a free download at the bottom of the STAGES page ont he
meditationexpert website. That explains many of your
phenomena. Read it (about 180+ pages) and you’ll see you were at the
stage
of intensified practices, but your chi never entered the
central channel for dhyana attainment. This is the stage of generation
in
Vajrayana/Tibetan Yoga. Had you persevered you
would have been at the completion stage of practice where chi enters
intot
he central channel. See Tsongkhapa’s Commentary on the
Six Yogas of Naropa (Glenn Mullin) for more details. The free medexpert
newsletter lets you download 13 case studies of
practitioners with similar and dismilar experiences to your own.
SUggest you
get that as well.

Good luck.

Bill

[dragonbones]

alchemy and “alcolby”

http://www.iamheart.org/method/alcolby.shtml

[dragonbones]

thank you for your words.

it is interesting for me to read what people have said about this kind of process – for the period of my most intense problems seems to have passed. and i can see how it’s already “getting smoother”. i stopped doing yoga with any of the intensity that i had soon after it all began, in february. i am a vegetarian, though i’ve tried fish a couple times in recent months for the reason i imagine you’ve suggessted. i find long walks are important… as does being meaningfully involved with the lives of others. i have also understood that the best way for me right now is fundamentally one of the heart. abiding by my true heart, its love and its nature, things work out.
it is important for my “missions” to be involved in the “worldly” earth… that is why i am attracted to taoist practice as a tradition that is rooted in heaven AND earth.

all the best,
dragonbones

[dragonbones]

I have heard of anusara yoga – but I didn’t know it included more than a physical practice. Thank you for mentioning this.

To clarify – what I meant by that last question was: whereas other systems employ manifestations of a force often called kundalini to achieve *disassociative* goals, how does the taoist system employ it?

I really appreciate the responses, this seems like an important issue.

-Dragon Bones

[dragonbones]

(no drugs for me, my life has always been psychedelic enough without them!)

the way you have described daoist alchemy – this is much closer to what i’m looking for, than those paths of “annihilation”. i have deep disagreements with areas of buddhist and hindu philosophies, and do not want to practice with systems that are woven into world-views and goals that do not harmonize with my heart’s understanding. this is why i am reluctant to contact/explore some of the resources that have so far been recommended to me in this forum.

so, for anyone who can help, here is a distillation of my inquiry in one brief question:

i have experienced this force that leads to an undesirable sense of disassociation. the primary “esoteric systems” i have been trained in are also philosophically “disassociative” at root (leave the “world of dust”, sever consciousness from all objects, etc.) in taoist inner arts i see from what i have read, on the healingtao site for example, a system that does not seem to bear the stain of this escapist disassocation philosophy, but more one that seeks integration in all states, eventually as a means to unite the great paradoxes of known and unknown, life and death, etc. with this in mind, how does the taoist system approach this “force”?

thanks again, everyone.

[dragonbones]

dance of shiva, as in andrey lappa’s practice?
i actually know the first few levels of that…
he was the main teacher whose system i followed in my yoga practice.
but i didn’t get very helpful advice from him when i spoke with him about my problems, since his attitude seems to be bent toward the yogi/tibetan buddhist goals of “up-up-and-away into emptiness” – which is not my interest spiritually.

what do you mean when you say “fix the chi” in regard to the problems we’re talking about?

[dragonbones]

thanks to all for aiding me in this inquiry.

i will add a bit more detail about my situation and what i am looking for. its a long story, so i’ll try to stick to a few important points.

-i’d practiced yoga asanas and such for a couple years, but last fall i became very serious for a number of reasons (essentially i was trying to return to a celestial homeland i remembered in my very early years). i intensely practiced. for six months i intensely practiced yoga asanas, pranyamas, and kryias, whilst cutting myself off from social contacts, engaging in regular meditations/contemplations, studying religious texts, and following brahmacharya (celibacy). the more energy i retained, it seemed, the greater perception i had of this “place” i sought to return to. also, more and more life seemed to be a passing phantom, truly a dream. and so, compelled by such observations, i looked into buddhism, particularly dzogchen and their dream practices. i felt i was ready to return to this wellspring of all realities, whence and whither it all flows.

surely enough, in feburary of this year, it all came bursting upon me. i was shortly scared to death. first, explosions at the base of my spine, shaking and shuddering in the pelvis, like an invisible churning animal was waking up from its slumber. i saw flashes of white-blue light, my whole body electrified. i would walk into a room at the light burns out. i became sensitive to things i can’t imagine… a sense of incredible power, unbelievable, alien. there are huge pulsations at my root and in my testicles… spasms throughout my body… a feeling like cool tingling water as been pouring down over my brain. if i practiced any pranyamas and/or bandhas (yogic energy locks), this force would literally shake me off the floor. i felt like it was ripping through me. everyday was like a psychedelic experience, my sense of self flitting in and out, all around… my senses being disconnected, disjointed… i felt i was at the cusp of real annihilation. no sleep at night, loud sounds, strange beings in the room. huge amount of energy in the legs and root of torso. also, regular “tingling” in my testicles. no peace. terrified. unbelievable fear and sense of dread. sense that i’d ruined my whole life.

i quickly realized that i was not well-integrated in my intent, and still had a lot of “worldly” business and experiences left to pursue. i also understood that the idea of annihilation as the highest purpose of existence is wrong – it doesn’t take into account why it all happened in the first place.

one of the first things i did was, reluctantly, ejaculate. i have since stopped any kind of retention or celibacy. i also got myself back involved in the world, friends, relations… cooking for people, playing music, gardening. slowly i learned how to avoid the manifestation of this force by way of my intent. if i do not focus on airy “spiritual” matters, and made sure i had no hidden motivations for this kind of power to come to me, it seems to leave me alone.

-since then, the manifestations have been mostly less extreme, with a few exceptions. those are incidents of tingling at the crown of my head and fading out of space and time. this has been extremely disassociative when i have allowed it to happen, taking weeks to recover from.

-somehow, however, in all this – i seem to have overcome (at least reacting to) the basic fear. as much as i dread the states that could shred me to bits, i don’t fear them like i first did. for i realize some deeper is always there.

-i feel myself experiencing something of a yo-yo effect, in that each time i am rocketed up “into the clouds”, i must crash back down to earth. this creats a great disturbance in me, and a feeling of deep disconnection and disassociation. i want to find a way to be here on earth without repressing awareness of what is beyond, yet without flying off into it at the expense of my earthly existence and heart.

-i call the yoga system schizophrenic because i believe that it seeks separation of qualities that must coexist – i.e. the goal of samkhya philosopy – to totally disassociate purusha from prakriti. of course i am talking more about the yoga of pantanjali, but i think tantric hatha tradition of kundalini seeks the same thing just with the body and its energies more explicitly embraced as a tool.
i am attracted to what i have know of the taoist approach as it seems to possibly have as its aim not a disassociation of primal qualities, but rather an integration of them. in other words, not the severance of heaven and earth, but the unification of them. i am also attracted to this tradition because, as has been pointed out in this discussion, in contrast to yoga, it actually offers a means to bring the energy back down. it seems much more balanced.

-i have read a little about movement of qi, etc. and the microcosmic orbit… but i have never read about qi shaking people uncontrollably, for example, or expericing utterly altered consciousness. when i experienced the kundalini phenomena, it seemed to me something different from “prana”… although accompanied by its manifestations. in my limited knowledge of the taoist inner arts, i might say it seemed more like a movement of/between jing and shen. i have felt energy move through my body and have can sometimes circulate it crudely… but this new force i have experienced seems to be something almost uncontrollable if called upon. even if i am able to bring it back down, calling it “up” can create a very unstable situation.

– hence i am reluctant to “try” anything without a close relationship with an appropriate teacher (which i have not found yet). it seems a lot of practitioners (whether of yoga or qi gong) talk of techniques for things that are very serious when there is power and sensitivity behind them, but since they do not have such sensitivity themselves, they have no idea what they actually are about. i have seen this all the time in yoga culture. what i experienced this past year was kind of the shift between these two sides… when the techniques actually start to *work*. i once compared it to the experience of peddling around on a bicycle and suddenly finding yourself in a racecar. every move you make has much greater reprocussions!

thank you again, and i hope these words of mine contribute constructively to our exchange.

-dragonbones

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