August 21, 2006 at 3:28 pm #16695
I love Astral Projection and OBE so I was delighted to find, in Eva Wong’s ‘Tales of the Taoist Immortals’, this story about Sung-era Complete Reality dude Chang Po-tuan. Not only a cool trick, it also has something to say about Michael’s distinction between ‘head enlightenment’ and ‘whole body enlightenment’. Stop me if you’ve heard this one…
Po-tuan had a friend who was a Zen Buddhist. The two met often to meditate together and discuss Buddhist and Taoist philosophy. One day, the friend, whose Buddhist name was Hui-ting, went to Po-tuan’s retreat and said, “I have mastered the technique of spirit travel. When I enter meditative stillness, I can send my spirit anywhere I want.”
Po-tuan proposed, “Shall we travel somewhere together today?”
“My pleasure!” replied Hui-ting.
“How about the gardens in Yang county?” suggested his friend. “I’ve heard that the flowers there are beautiful at this time of year.”
The two men sat on their meditation cushions, closed their eyes, and sent their spirits to the flower gardens of Yang county. When Po-tuan arrived, he found his friend already sitting on a bench. Hui-ting remarked, “I’ve already walked around the garden three times.”
Po-tuan only said, “Why don’t we each take a flower back as a souvenir?”
Hui-ting nodded. The friends walked through the garden and each plucked a flower.
Back in Po-tuan’s retreat, the two men opened their eyes and stretched their legs.
“Where’s your flower?” Po-tuan asked his friend. Hui-ting could not find his. Po-tuan then reached into his sleeve and brought out a beautiful chrysanthemum.
At first, Hui-ting was disappointed, but then he laughed and said, “I’m glad one of us was able to bring back a flower.” Po-tuan gave the flower to his friend and said, “I know you appreciate flowers. Take this one home in memory of the good time we had today.”
Later, when Hui-ting had left, Po-tuan’s students asked, “Why couldn’t Hui-ting bring back a flower?”
Their teacher replied, “Hui-ting cultivated his mind alone. Therefore, when he entered stillness, he could liberate only his spirit. As a result, the entire journey was in his mind. On the other hand, I cultivate both mind and body. When my spirit travels, it can take on corporeal form and influence reality. That’s why I could bring back a flower and he couldn’t.”
Needless to say this is not *only* a story about the Buddhist/Taoist split! Many of the Taoist immortals in this book worked only with their spirits. Some however took their bodies with them when they achieved the Tao eg. Ge Hong.
In the (Western) magical literature I’m familiar with, there are several ways to achieve the ability to affect the physical world whilst in the OBE state – but actually to bring back a physical object over distance, no matter how light, is a very advanced piece of work.
Note the clever detail that, taking no astral form, Hui-ting might not have been able to incorporate but on the other hand he travelled faster. Then he bragged about it! (“I’ve already walked around the garden three times.”) So Po-tuan suggested the flower thing to get his own back, because he knew that, going that quick, his friend had no power to affect the physical plane. At the end when he gives the flower to Hui-ting, it’s just as much saying – “Gotcha!” – as it is a gesture of friendship.
If only Buddhist/Taoist joshing were always so good-natured!
NNAugust 21, 2006 at 3:47 pm #16696
Well, if the immortal taoists could really do this why not eliminate the evil leaders of the past and curent?
baguaAugust 21, 2006 at 4:22 pm #16698
… even I can do it a little – certainly Buddhists can, it’s not hard or a sectarian thing.
Why not eliminate evil leaders? Because humans have free will. See ‘Time Bandits’ for a deeper explanation.
NNAugust 21, 2006 at 5:33 pm #16700
B: “Well, if the immortal taoists could really do this why not eliminate the evil leaders of the past and curent?”
That would change entire histories. Who knows, maybe all of us wouldn`t even be here to have discussions. Also, I think everyone has the potential of evil inside, so eliminate one evil guy and another one will appear. Way of the tao maybe. 🙂
Free will is also a good point.
One thing though. I don`t believe that if buddhist only enlighten the mind, they can`t effect our physical. How about realization of emptiness? Though I`m not sure if that is both mind and body realization or just mind.August 21, 2006 at 6:00 pm #16702
Maybe you should try Mantak Chia’s Daoist nei dan too. His is about bringing the pearl above the head and astral travel or something like that and magnetizing qi from planets, stars, sun, moon, etc., above the head. Bagua has done it with him. It creates a spirit-body!?
Don’t know too much, will have to try it.
FajinAugust 21, 2006 at 6:01 pm #16704
>>Well, if the immortal taoists could really do this why not eliminate the evil leaders of the past and curent?<<
*Same reasons why aliens don't intervene, to make themselves responsible for their actions afterwards.
There's a saying, "let nature take its course and your tools will strike at the right moment."
FajinAugust 21, 2006 at 6:42 pm #16706
Exactly, why is it these super human, immortal taoists dont use there free will to eliminate the evil leaders to help millions of people?August 21, 2006 at 6:49 pm #16708
Dude stop using the word ‘taoists’ anyone can do it.
I answered your question already. It’s a question of free will. You could start by defining ‘evil’ but please don’t involve me in this discussion!
NNAugust 21, 2006 at 6:53 pm #16710
>>I don`t believe that if buddhist only enlighten the mind, they can`t effect our physical<<
There is a difference between direct and indirect effecting of the physical. Specifically for OBE you can easily learn it but to interact with the physical without a body takes longer and a strong energy body. In other words you need to do energetic calisthenics for it.
It is NOT (for the last bloody time) that Taoists cultivate the body and Buddhists don't. It is just that this PARTICULAR Taoist did and this PARTICULAR Buddhist didn't. Many Taoists do not either which is why they leave their body behind at death in the stories too – unlike Ge Hong. But I said that already. Please read careful! NNAugust 21, 2006 at 6:53 pm #16712
Multiple realites, histories, whatever… In our reality “they” might not have, in another “they” might have, and in another “they” might not even exist…
🙂August 21, 2006 at 6:55 pm #16714
No I wouldn’t do that practice personally. You don’t have to eject a pearl to travel with spirit body only. NNAugust 21, 2006 at 6:55 pm #16716August 21, 2006 at 6:56 pm #16718
“for the last bloody time”
LOL, no need to get angry. Sorry for the misunderstanding. 🙂
“Specifically for OBE you can easily learn it”
Can you write more on this?August 21, 2006 at 6:57 pm #16720August 21, 2006 at 6:57 pm #16722
>>Exactly, why is it these super human, immortal taoists dont use there free will to eliminate the evil leaders to help millions of people?<<
*That's one of the most rediculous things I've heard. Why would a Boddhisatva/Immortal, who is free from karma create more karma? Especially eliminating someone wether evil or good.
After eliminating a leader, they would have to instill another leader? They would have to devise a government suitable to help people? I think Celestial Immortals and Boddhisatvas know better.
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