November 26, 2005 at 12:52 pm #8664
I’m an independent western magician and I like using methods such as sigils, entity work and astral projection. I would like to ask the forum whether it’s felt these things are incompatible with the kind of Taoism being taught here, which I’m becoming attracted to, or whether conversely anyone here has actually combined them with any success. I feel they could combine very well. Thanks, NNNovember 26, 2005 at 10:21 pm #8665
I would think that Western magic and Taoist alchemy can both be practised by the same person. There are yogic elements to Western magic e.g Tattwas : http://www.magicalpath.net/tattwa/tattwa-vision.htm and there are yogic aspects to Taoism as well.
TomNovember 26, 2005 at 10:34 pm #8667
I’m sure you’re right. What particularly interests me is to log on the site and right away see a vid of Mr. Winn standing in a circle and bowing to the four directions – a western magician knows where he is with this kind of thing! In western magic it’s more common to talk about 4 elements plus one central fifth one, a quintessence, than to use 5 elements though. I’ll be interested to see how cardinal directions are approached with five element theory.
To widen this a bit, does anyone here have any experience with other alchemical practices, eg the Western Hermetic ones? It’s very interesting to me that the Chinese one of today is purely internal – although I’m told that in some places Taoists still make elixirs (see “opening the Dragon Gate”)…. not something for the amateur to try, from the sound of it!November 26, 2005 at 11:50 pm #8669
You can read Eric Yudelove’s Tao and the Tree of Life to get one perspective… Eric was a senior instructor of the healing tao; he got into the tao because he had invovked armies of elementals and was having trouble controlling them.
About 20 years later, Eric got back into the magic – let’s call it black magic – and to make a long story short, the dark side got the better of him, sucked him dry and spit him out. They always win the game of manipulation.
The tools of western magic and this particiular school of taoist inner alchemy are essentially the same, but applied for different purposes. Certainly there are Magical Schools of Taoism that would be much closer to the western ones, that invoke entities and bid them to do their command.
The danger here is one of motivation and clarity of intention. Is one creating a field of greater collective balance and harmony? Those would be the core Taoist values.
Or is one plundering the field for one’s own purpose? There are many levels of magic, and many different levels of spiritual development amongst magicians.
michaelNovember 27, 2005 at 10:10 am #8671
>>About 20 years later, Eric got back into the magic – let’s call it black magic – and to make a long story short, the dark side got the better of him, sucked him dry and spit him out. They always win the game of manipulation.< < They do indeed if one insists on playing this kind of game! That's not my thing at all I have to say. >>Certainly there are Magical Schools of Taoism that would be much closer to the western ones, that invoke entities and bid them to do their command<< Certainly, yes I have heard of that. Even this is not my style though - I try to make friendships with entities. The whole thing of commanding them strikes me as dumb. I suppose that Mr Winn would have no problem with this since of course his Atlantean teacher is an entity of sorts! I never picked Yudelove up, firstly because the Kabbalah (or however one spells it) doesn't interest me very much, but secondly because there was indeed always this feeling that he was running scared from something. But what you've moved us onto here is an ethical question, when I was really just asking a technical one... I find it very interesting that one can look at "chi" as both entities and also energies. It seems to me that the whole point, from either view, is to have a kind of conversation with the universe. Doesn't Mr Winn say learning qigong forms is like learning languages? I also like the fact that Taoism, with the 5 animals etc., has held on to something of its shamanic root. I'm encouraged, I think my question has been answered! Thanks, NNNovember 27, 2005 at 10:13 am #8673
“Michael” – oops, didn’t notice that you ARE Michael Winn! Thanks for your reply. best NNNovember 27, 2005 at 11:54 am #8675
I think Mr. Winn 🙂 would agree with you – the line betweeen entities and patterns of chi is very thin. Sun, moon, planets etc. are all entities, as are ancestors, internal body spirits, hungry ghosts, etc. all dealt with in inner alchemy.
As to whether one can separate technical questions from ethical questions, in the beginning yes, in the end, no.
And certainly didn’t mean to imply that all magicians would have Eric’s problems, or that you would start casting spells on posters to this forum who disagreed with you. (Eric was routinely issuing death threats on this forum, btw).
I think qigong and inner alchemy would improve and inform any western magical practices, in the end. You are certainly welcome to post your insights into the differences and benefits of each, as you discover/perceive them. My goal is to cultivate a heart centered spiritual science that takes the best of all traditions.
MichaelNovember 27, 2005 at 12:22 pm #8677
Well thank Mr. Winn for that nice post would you Michael? ;].
>>(Eric was routinely issuing death threats on this forum, btw).< < !! Oh-KAYYYY... The problem with "magic" is, like you say, it's a big field. People like that are... a problem. Thankfully I've only encountered one or two, and their example was enough to warn me off. Given what you say, I can understand any leeriness! >>As to whether one can separate technical questions from ethical questions, in the beginning yes, in the end, no< < I certainly never intended to imply you could separate them. What I meant was more practical that's all - certain traditions have a "mutually inimical" nature. I was just trying to establish whether there were any such "rubbings-up-against" between what I already know and what I hope to learn here. For example, seeing as how astral projection interests me so very much, I was worried that (given your attitude on, say, Chia's pearl-expelling practice) you might feel "out of body" was incompatible with your "above all WITHIN body"-style practices. I doubt this is so, but I feel bound to check... As to where ethics fit into that particular question, it's the same as where they fit anywhere - without ethical development there can't be spiritual development, that is my belief. The best techniques for attaining either sort of development are a matter of experiment. But I'm sure you follow me. >>And I certainly didn’t mean to imply that all magicians would have Eric’s problems, or that you would start casting spells on posters to this forum who disagreed with you< < It's okay! I'm not sensitive, really, about loving magic. Partly down to church propaganda and partly down to assholes (like Yudelove appears to be, I have to say!) magic has a... "difficult" reputation. I'm used to it. But like anything else, after a while people see one's behaviour is ok and then they realise magicians aren't all bad. Time proves. As for "casting spells" on people, I never do that in any case, unless asked to of course, and even then I stroke my chin alot first. I view magic as primarily personal and spiritually driven like your approach. The main difference does seem to me that of perspective and technique. >>I think qigong and inner alchemy would improve and inform any western magical practices, in the end. You are certainly welcome to post your insights into the differences and benefits of each, as you discover/perceive them<< Well thanks and I will! best NNNovember 27, 2005 at 12:26 pm #8679
>>Eric was routinely issuing death threats on this forum, btw).
Com ‘on Michael, be fair. Eric has had, yes, a couple of periods in which he was not in his center. But before he has been a great presence for this circle & helped many people. His book (I’m speaking of the 100 days) was so much liked and referred that people were joking that it was becoming the answer to all basic questions. Still it is (in my opinion) one of the best introductory programs to the HT. When he has asked to come back after his bad period (which we all know was also due to personal problems), someone asked him not to. Not the majority, nor any form of authority, just one of us. He accepted that person judgment and left, and was unheard off until today.
To only remember his death threads from his unbalanced periods, is like remembering of a person only their smell when they are ill. Not really fair.
PietroNovember 27, 2005 at 4:27 pm #8681
Heya Pietro –
>>To only remember his death threads from his unbalanced periods, is like remembering of a person only their smell when they are ill. Not really fair.<< That may be true, but wonder if you checked out the new thread further up? - about "what happens to NYC Taoists and such"? best NNNovember 27, 2005 at 7:32 pm #8683
I wrote my entry after having read that thread, the whole of Plato’s blog (nice one btw), the article and Plato comment on Eric.
PietroNovember 27, 2005 at 7:38 pm #8685
Heya Pietro –
>>I wrote my entry after having read that thread, the whole of Plato’s blog (nice one btw), the article and Plato comment on Eric.
Why?<< Sorry, I literally just wondered if you'd seen it. I'm a newcomer to all this and would not want to judge anyone's character that I didn't know. best NNNovember 27, 2005 at 7:49 pm #8687
Best to you,
welcome on board.
PietroNovember 27, 2005 at 10:53 pm #8689
It seems to me that astral projection should be pretty simple to prove. In the past all I’ve seen is anecdotal evidence. Anybody have any good links w/ evidence? Heck I’ll even take more recent anecdotal stuff.
In his his earliest book on Lucid Dreaming, the author who ran the Stanford Dream research center looked for but couldn’t find proof it was possible. That was a long time ago. Whats the story now gents.
MichaelNovember 28, 2005 at 8:35 am #8691
Heya Michael –
>>Anybody have any good links w/ evidence? Heck I’ll even take more recent anecdotal stuff.<< I know of no scientific evidence generally available, but if you are interested in more recent anecdotal stuff, these are cool books: "Astral Dynamics" - Robert Bruce "Out Of Body Experiences" - Robert Peterson "Adventures Out Of Body" - William Buhlman They're also how-to guides, so you can try it out for yourself. On this one you'll miss out on too much fun if you wait for science to authenticate! It is absolutely real, and it's very very cool. And good for you in my experience. best NN
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