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Ha ha ha…is this a dialogue, or a stating of beliefs, an argument about methods?
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For me its a discussion of what these practices mean, often the metaphor behind the words, not about a method.You seem to be saying that there are five phases and cycles of change, but then also say that everything is already perfect in yuan shen (the process of change is perfect, not particularly any specific part)…this is stating the obvious!!!
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Five phases and cycles or time are normal and natural, I would not attach a judgment to them, perfect or not, they exists in natural patterns of life, its how we look at them, this is one thing I am trying to express, just seeing them from a natural or yuan perspective is enlightenment or living in the tao.That yuan jing-qi-shen-wu includes the journey to post-natal and back again is the basis of daoist cosmology, as well as there being a continual process of change.
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Post natal and prenatal exist right now, simultaneously. Each moment we have the possibility of living this. I dont think dao alchemy is a sequencial thing, do this formula and you get only this and go to next, there is the possibility the goal of it can be realized in formula one.Seeing change as a continual process is the key to dao alchemy, is we can really see this then we are freed from much of our attempts to stop things, creating polarity. This is a key in dao cultivation and alchemy.
Since we are talking about methods here…I see you have said again that mindfulness is the method you prefer (this comes up a lot in our discussions – fair enough),
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I use mindfulness as a translation of Yi, not in a Buddhist way. And when you do all the formulas it is this Yi, intention of mindfulness that you are using.happy holidays,
The idea of the inner meaning of words is an important one, particularly in spiritual discussions because the same words can be used to mean different things.
The idea of “enlightenment or living in the Tao” does imply some sort of “state of being”, I tend to think of it as a “process of being”, and for me “just seeing them from a yuan perspective” implies that all someone need do is shift their mental viewpoint and they are “living in harmony with the yuan shen”.. It seems you are saying that “shifting your viewpoint” is equal to practicing Kan and Li, which brings us back to the discussion about methods and the idea (which I do not agree with) that some people hold that “all paths lead to the same result”. Having practiced kan and li for many years, I have felt a definite change in my process of being that exists both on a deep level and in the outer world, which are overlapping more and more as the practice deepens. I would disagree that the goal of practice can be reached in formula one because it does not include kan and li. Learning the first kan and li formula can spontaneously lead to the other ones but not necessarily, so learning them is also valuable in my opinion. After all of them have been learned they do start to merge together and the practice continually deepens so in a sense my later heaven experience of it is sequential. From the perspective of the higher self in early or primordial heaven, all time and possibilities are ever present, but we are rooted in the later heaven plane…you can say otherwise, and that you have achieved free and effortless communication with primordial heaven and that is fine (in your opinion), but I would say that my ability to communicate with the other levels of my self does deepen and change the more I practice, which is really what alchemy is…a process of refinement.
Even though you say otherwise, it does still seem that you use a semi-buddhist cosmology in the sense that we can be “freed from our attempts to stop things, creating polarity”… isn’t this a lot like trying to “free yourself from the wheel of samsara, the life of suffering”. Later heaven is by nature polarized, we are bringing more balance here through practice, but it is the polarity that helps create the process of change, and cannot be stopped as long as we are in a physical body.
The concept of Yi to me means using the intention to achieve things, not necessarily a deep constant connection with the yuan shen as you seem to imply. I am not really clear on what YOU mean by saying that. Again, I would answer that by using the yi you are achieving formula one in one clouds system, but there are also four other jing shen, and combined they work together on a deeper level, as well as reversing their polarity as in formula two which also gives a deeper method of communication. It is really useless discussing it because the effects are only felt through practice, and it takes a lot of practice to feel the results.
Again I also disagree with the implication that you make that “when you do all of the formulas, it is this Yi, intention of mindfulness that you are using”, which seems to say that all of the kan and li formulas amount to just using the Yi. ha ha ha, yes you are using the yi but you are using it to connect to certain parts of the mind of nature, more collective levels of consciousness and wire them into the individual self. When you try and bypass this by “meditating on the primordial” without all the intermediary steps, it is much harder to integrate and communicate with (in my opinion).
The idea of the inner meaning of words is an important one, particularly in spiritual discussions because the same words can be used to mean different things.
The idea of “enlightenment or living in the Tao” does imply some sort of “state of being”, I tend to think of it as a “process of being”, and for me “just seeing them from a yuan perspective” implies that all someone need do is shift their mental viewpoint and they are “living in harmony with the yuan shen”.. It seems you are saying that “shifting your viewpoint” is equal to practicing Kan and Li, which brings us back to the discussion about methods and the idea (which I do not agree with) that some people hold that “all paths lead to the same result”. Having practiced kan and li for many years, I have felt a definite change in my process of being that exists both on a deep level and in the outer world, which are overlapping more and more as the practice deepens. I would disagree that the goal of practice can be reached in formula one because it does not include kan and li. Learning the first kan and li formula can spontaneously lead to the other ones but not necessarily, so learning them is also valuable in my opinion. After all of them have been learned they do start to merge together and the practice continually deepens so in a sense my later heaven experience of it is sequential. From the perspective of the higher self in early or primordial heaven, all time and possibilities are ever present, but we are rooted in the later heaven plane…you can say otherwise, and that you have achieved free and effortless communication with primordial heaven and that is fine (in your opinion), but I would say that my ability to communicate with the other levels of my self does deepen and change the more I practice, which is really what alchemy is…a process of refinement.
Even though you say otherwise, it does still seem that you use a semi-buddhist cosmology in the sense that we can be “freed from our attempts to stop things, creating polarity”… isn’t this a lot like trying to “free yourself from the wheel of samsara, the life of suffering”. Later heaven is by nature polarized, we are bringing more balance here through practice, but it is the polarity that helps create the process of change, and cannot be stopped as long as we are in a physical body.
The concept of Yi to me means using the intention to achieve things, not necessarily a deep constant connection with the yuan shen as you seem to imply. I am not really clear on what YOU mean by saying that. Again, I would answer that by using the yi you are achieving formula one in one clouds system, but there are also four other jing shen, and combined they work together on a deeper level, as well as reversing their polarity as in formula two which also gives a deeper method of communication. It is really useless discussing it because the effects are only felt through practice, and it takes a lot of practice to feel the results.
Again I also disagree with the implication that you make that “when you do all of the formulas, it is this Yi, intention of mindfulness that you are using”, which seems to say that all of the kan and li formulas amount to just using the Yi. ha ha ha, yes you are using the yi but you are using it to connect to certain parts of the mind of nature, more collective levels of consciousness and wire them into the individual self. When you try and bypass this by “meditating on the primordial” without all the intermediary steps, it is much harder to integrate and communicate with (in my opinion).
The idea of the inner meaning of words is an important one, particularly in spiritual discussions because the same words can be used to mean different things.
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This is true in most areas of chinese metaphysics.The idea of “enlightenment or living in the Tao” does imply some sort of “state of being”, I tend to think of it as a “process of being”, and for me “just seeing them from a yuan perspective” implies that all someone need do is shift their mental viewpoint and they are “living in harmony with the yuan shen”.. It seems you are saying that “shifting your viewpoint” is equal to practicing Kan and Li, which brings us back to the discussion about methods and the idea (which I do not agree with) that some people hold that “all paths lead to the same result”. Having practiced kan and li for many years, I have felt a definite change in my process of being that exists both on a deep level and in the outer world, which are overlapping more and more as the practice deepens.
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Living life from a yuan perspective is what Lao Zi is talking about, cant get more taoist then him, don’t you agree? He is tell us how to live in the tao in Tao Teh Ching.I am glad you are getting benefits from Kan and Li, because you have not practiced other taoist approaches in this time frame you cannot say how or if, you would have benefited.
I would disagree that the goal of practice can be reached in formula one because it does not include kan and li. Learning the first kan and li formula can spontaneously lead to the other ones but not necessarily, so learning them is also valuable in my opinion. After all of them have been learned they do start to merge together and the practice continually deepens so in a sense my later heaven experience of it is sequential.
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What I am tying to express is the experience is not rigidly fit into one formula or not like a educational degree, I know some who never do Kan and Li and in my view are much more achieved than those who have, its a very individual thing and spiritual experience cannot be categorized definitely in a formula.
Formulas are guides, potentialities, we are integrated people and part of the whole, always with the potential to realize our true nature.From the perspective of the higher self in early or primordial heaven, all time and possibilities are ever present, but we are rooted in the later heaven plane…you can say otherwise, and that you have achieved free and effortless communication with primordial heaven and that is fine (in your opinion), but I would say that my ability to communicate with the other levels of my self does deepen and change the more I practice, which is really what alchemy is…a process of refinement.
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Tao is about being in the here and now, not some place of the past or some dream of the future, to enjoy the eternity of the present moment, the formulas help focus your entire being in the present, an ingenious method to do it.Communicating with other entities has nothing to do with spiritual achievement and realization, many psychics out there not to balanced.
Even though you say otherwise, it does still seem that you use a semi-buddhist cosmology in the sense that we can be “freed from our attempts to stop things, creating polarity”… isn’t this a lot like trying to “free yourself from the wheel of samsara, the life of suffering”. Later heaven is by nature polarized, we are bringing more balance here through practice, but it is the polarity that helps create the process of change, and cannot be stopped as long as we are in a physical body.
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I think if you read Lao Zi he lays out there entire dynamic of dualism and the trappings of it and how it leads you patterns of thought and behavior to take you away from your yuan self. “KNow the offspring but stay with the mother”.Changes in life are normal, its how we respond to natural changes, Lao Zi gives guidance for this, if you need the change to fuel your transformation, great, but its not necessary. We enjoy the changes of life, the dynamic processes of life of which we are inseparable.
The concept of Yi to me means using the intention to achieve things, not necessarily a deep constant connection with the yuan shen as you seem to imply.
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In kan and li you use your Yi/intention/mindfullness of organs, stars, planets, you merge your mind/Yi in them and mix and blend them, the little secret is you are using your intention to merge into these things, total focus and concentration, being AWARE of what exists, this is the fruit of the practice.I am not really clear on what YOU mean by saying that. Again, I would answer that by using the yi you are achieving formula one in one clouds system, but there are also four other jing shen, and combined they work together on a deeper level, as well as reversing their polarity as in formula two which also gives a deeper method of communication. It is really useless discussing it because the effects are only felt through practice, and it takes a lot of practice to feel the results.
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I have practiced them for 20-years.Again I also disagree with the implication that you make that “when you do all of the formulas, it is this Yi, intention of mindfulness that you are using”, which seems to say that all of the kan and li formulas amount to just using the Yi. ha ha ha, yes you are using the yi but you are using it to connect to certain parts of the mind of nature, more collective levels of consciousness and wire them into the individual self. When you try and bypass this by “meditating on the primordial” without all the intermediary steps, it is much harder to integrate and communicate with (in my opinion).
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ha ha ha, they are inseparable in the first place. Creator and creation are one, the formulas help realize this.The main issue I am having with this conversation now, and have had in the past with similar discussions is that there is sometimes a problem with congruency of meaning behind terms (we have different meanings for words, or sometimes they seem to mean the same and other times they don’t).
“This is true in most areas of chinese metaphysics.”
>having a congruent meaning is true in any discussion regardless if it is chinese, metaphysical or otherwise. In Hawaiian Huna it is clearly said that the power of intention is brought into the physical plane through words, so is important for words to have congruency with their meaning
“Living life from a yuan perspective is what Lao Zi is talking about, cant get more taoist then him, don’t you agree? He is tell us how to live in the tao in Tao Teh Ching.”
>I agree that Lao Zi is big on balance and harmony, but not being completely neutral and inert…does he not present all of the contrasting perspectives and then give you the free will to make your own choice using any gradation of yin, yang or yuan to achieve it? By the way, have you ever read the Nei Yeh??? Some scholars believe that it was written earlier than the Dao De Jing (does that mean that Lao Zi wrote that too?), and it does have a focus that is much more on practice than observing the neutral point between polarities (which is also important, also known as “holding the one”). I do also recognize many other daoists, notably Lu Dong Bin, one of the great known practitioners of inner alchemy. Zhuang Zi and Lao Zi are definitely recognized by intellectuals and deified by certain religious daoist sects, but that definitely does not make them the be-all and end-all of Daoism from my perspective, so feel free to follow and practice what you want, and I’ll practice what I want, that is the great thing about Daoism!!!
“I am glad you are getting benefits from Kan and Li, because you have not practiced other taoist approaches in this time frame you cannot say how or if, you would have benefited.”
>By the way, could you elaborate on what thos “other practices” are??? Do you mean mindfulness of the Yuan Shen using the Yi? So I guess you are taking that directly from the Dao De Jing, or do you have a teacher that encourages that practice, if so who is your teacher? I do think that the inner smile, the foundation practice of One Clouds system pretty well covers using the Yi to observe the Yuan Shen, IF one is able to practice it constantly…and I have noticed that through practicing Kan and Li there is a constant inner awareness of the VARIOUS different levels of my energetic and spiritual self.
“What I am tying to express is (that) the experience is (does) not rigidly fit into one formula or (is )not like a educational degree, I know some who never do Kan and Li and in my view are much more achieved than those who have, its a very individual thing and spiritual experience cannot be categorized definitely in a formula.
Formulas are guides, potentialities, we are integrated people and part of the whole, always with the potential to realize our true nature.>I definitely agree that everyone has different issues to deal with in this physical life, but not necessarily that there is an idealized state of spiritual achievement. this comes back to the idea that we are in a process that is influenced by our free will to achieve balance, harmony and completion during our life time with what we are given, or what we choose to do. So that one person seems “more spiritual”, may simply be that they meet what your expectations are for a spiritual person, but you don’t necessarily know what others have gone through that seem “less spiritual”. Some people never do any spiritual practice and are very balanced people, but with the tools to go deeper, you can take on larger levels of responsibility if you choose to do so. Kan and li is just a tool, so different people will do different things with it. My point is that from my perspective, it is a very effective tool.
“Tao is about being in the here and now, not some place of the past or some dream of the future, to enjoy the eternity of the present moment, the formulas help focus your entire being in the present, an ingenious method to do it.
Communicating with other entities has nothing to do with spiritual achievement and realization, many psychics out there (are) not to(o) balanced.”
>You misunderstood what I said here, by “communicating with other levels of my self”, I mean with deeper, more vast and embodied aspects of the five jing shen, the “de”, like planetary forces, earth forces and stars etc.
“I think if you read Lao Zi he lays out there entire dynamic of dualism and the trappings of it and how it leads you patterns of thought and behavior to take you away from your yuan self. “KNow the offspring but stay with the mother”.
Changes in life are normal, its how we respond to natural changes, Lao Zi gives guidance for this, if you need the change to fuel your transformation, great, but its not necessary. We enjoy the changes of life, the dynamic processes of life of which we are inseparable.”
>I think the inner smile covers this if one is able to practice it at a deep level. In your second paragraph, you say something which is out of place with the other statements: “if you need (the) change to fuel your transformation, great, but its not necessary.” So by this, you mean that people can live in the physical plane without ever experiencing change, or conversely, how can we experience transformation if there is no change?
“In kan and li you use your Yi/intention/mindfullness of organs, stars, planets, you merge your mind/Yi in them and mix and blend them, the little secret is you are using your intention to merge into these things, total focus and concentration, being AWARE of what exists, this is the fruit of the practice.”
>I would agree … Yi is part of the practice, BUT the fruit of the practice to me is bringing substance to the Yuan Shen HERE, THAT is why its alchemy!!!! That is the transformation we are achieving!!! We can connect, or think we are connecting with the yuan shen through awareness but not give it any substance, and when we are distracted or not aware of the yuan shen, then the awareness is gone. By giving substance to the Yuan Shen, it becomes more permanently a part of us.
“I have practiced them for 20-years.”
>have practiced what? kan and li or awareness, or something else (this is unclear)? I could do the fundamentals for 20 years as well and don’t think I would be in the same place as I would have been If I had done Kan and Li and the fundamentals for the same 20. So on one hand you seem to be an exponent of the formulas, or to agree with them, and on the other hand you say that all you need is awareness. This is an incongruent aspect of your presentation.
“ha ha ha, they are inseparable in the first place. Creator and creation are one, the formulas help realize this.”
>yes, all aspects of the mind of nature are inseparable, the formulas help give substance to the experience of feeling this. Many new age people also focus on the “oneness of the universe”, but haven’t dealt with many of their emotional issues, or developed much “de” or yuan qi. So again things are a bit unclear, are you saying that the formulas help realize this but people can realize it simply by focusing their awareness on all levels of reality, so the formulas are really unnecessary, or something else, and if so, what?
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