Home › Forum Online Discussion › Philosophy › Bagua and I Finally Agree: Chan and Dao are NOT Identical
- This topic has 30 replies, 5 voices, and was last updated 18 years, 2 months ago by Fajin.
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August 19, 2006 at 9:47 am #16615NnonnthParticipant
I am content again. A true zen master would have been content all along, hahahaha! NN
August 19, 2006 at 10:13 am #16617FajinParticipantHi NN,
>>I ask this because I feel what a Buddhist would tell me is that the 10,000 things come from one thing – you can call it wuji if you like (I think that is not quite correct) – I would call it unity.<>What I am saying is that, as well as being only one thing, they are *also* 10,000 things. Neither view is correct. All views are correct. Each individual life of the 10,000 things is important individually, also each is important as a body of the whole Unity.<>But before that, I have to say this: the yin and yang of material existence must be unified; when they are, something appears that is neither yin nor yang but a reflection of the greater unity. This is the third and reconciling force between yin and yang. The three are one – it is just like mem aleph and shin for the kabbalistically inclined.<>Thirdly and finally, the business of Wuji itself. The complete Unity in my own conception is not Wuji, Wuji is *beyond* even this Unity. I am going from very limited experience but also from teachers and now Michael says the same which is encouraging.<<
*LOL. That's what the whole debate is about between Michael and I. Not to start another debate/arguement/etc. but I say Wu Ji is the third force that unites and makes everything a unity. It is that oneness. Michael sees it as a bird hatching out of an egg. Once the bird hatches out, the egg is left behind. We can only know the Hundun (primordial chaos-unity), but not Wu Ji itself.
That was just a summary epressed of the two different views between me and him.
I would only like to say that my view does not express Buddhism, but is very Daoist as well.
Regards,
FajinAugust 19, 2006 at 10:18 am #16619NnonnthParticipantNow at least in my own mind I understand what the hell everyone is talking about. I still say there is fundamentally no real disagreement here, and I say that because I appear to agree with everybody!
As for the questions that remain – wuji vs. primordial, yuan as prenatal, etc. etc., – well we will all find out the truth sooner or later, so I will wait and practice!
well wishes NN
August 19, 2006 at 10:35 am #16621NnonnthParticipantI have a great book called ‘Opening The Dragon Gate’ – a super read on Taoism, about a modern-day Taoist’s training.
In that book some Taoists were travelling across China during the famine that accompanied Mao’s ‘Great Leap Forward’. They came across a village suffering an outbreak of cholera.
They took the sufferers into a space and the Grandmaster Taoist made an inspection of their inner energy. Then he made a fire, and made a talisman, and burned the talisman on the fire. Within hours the cholera was cured.
To me this is also the meaning of ‘growing the primordial within the post-natal realm’.
NN
August 19, 2006 at 2:06 pm #16623baguaParticipantHi fajin:
I agree with you that jing is yin. It must be yin as the root of creation. But what I don’t agree with is that everyone on this board says that yuan qi is some kind of neutral force in between yin-yang. Yuan qi comes from yuan jing, these are prenatal sources and are classified as yin.
**************************************************We can play with these models in many ways and it depends what we compare things too, they are using yuan qi in this regard as the central force or glue that keeps the yin-yang force together, like the force that keeps the sun both spiralling to condense and have form and shoot out energy or light. It is the curving center line in the tai qi diagram. This is the attempt to use the tao cosmology model and their alchemy, to try to merge the two.
It is the chong mai channel, very little polarity there.
In TCM, kidney yin and kidney yang are also called yuan yin and yuan yang. Yuan does not imply neutrality. It just means original, or prenatal. But in the case of Tai Ji, qi is yang as it is the effect of jing.
*********************************************Yes. its original yin and original yang, meaning the Yuan QI from Jing goes right to kidney first and the kidneys then send to all the organs and body. Just a note, the “firing” of gate of vitality on jing creating yuan qi is not linear, its always happening.
It cannot get any simpler than this, I hope we can agree.
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Yes>>Hopefully dreams of immortality doesn’t take people away from living in this life, moment to moment. Its all here, right now, all else is fantasy.<<
*Just curious. What do you think was the reason then, that many Daoists secluded themselves in a cave and practice nei dan?
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This is a great question, there are some that criticize chan for going to monastery or mountains to practice, as if taoists didn't, well they did, it is the root of the nei dan tradition.We need a quiet enviornment to refine our energy, and the natural setting refines us too. In our alchemy we connect to earth, sun, moon, stars, in the mountains they are there and they naturally do these alchemhy for us.
I want to move to the mountains, thinking about where to go.
My two favorites are Lao Zi and Da Mo, they are my guiding light and provide all the guidance needed to cultivate.
Hope all is well with you.
bagua
August 19, 2006 at 2:13 pm #16625baguaParticipantHi NN:
We basically agree. Some are trapped by the form of the steps of the alchemy, they look at the intellectual descriptions not the experience.
NN
The myriad things distract from the one, correct?
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It can, if one cultivates no. If we know our true self we dont.If you can hold to the one, the myriad things lose their power to distract, correct?
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Its best to say we understand both, the creator and creation are one, we are inseparable from the whole. We are both the same and different at the same time.If so, please tell me: where do the myriad things come from and why do they have the power to distract?
**********************************************I Dont Know. The great mystery beyond intellectual understanding, we can know the what, not always the why.
bagua
August 19, 2006 at 4:59 pm #16627FajinParticipantHi bagua,
>>We can play with these models in many ways and it depends what we compare things too.<>Just a note, the “firing” of gate of vitality on jing creating yuan qi is not linear, its always happening.<>I want to move to the mountains, thinking about where to go.<>My two favorites are Lao Zi and Da Mo, they are my guiding light and provide all the guidance needed to cultivate.<<
*That's great! If I picked two – one Daoist and one Buddhist, I would have to say Zhang, Sanfeng and Zenji Dogen.
Btw, did you ever learn Wudang Taiji when you went to Wudang, what exactly did you learn there?
It's been swell,
JinAugust 19, 2006 at 5:56 pm #16629baguaParticipantHi fajin:
*We must be psychically connected! I would also love to move to the mountains one day. Look at this link:
http://www.damo-qigong.net/retreat.htm
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Im very familiar with them, i helped a little bit in getting Hu’s book published. I have done research on Da Mo’s Yi jin Jing and Xi Sui Jing, there method is one of many I have studied and praticed.Btw, did you ever learn Wudang Taiji when you went to Wudang, what exactly did you learn there?
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I have not been there but know there Yi Jin Jing, it is a sitting form.Its my experience if one meditates and cultivates most any forms will enhance the practice.
bagua
August 19, 2006 at 9:16 pm #16631DogParticipant“lets not mistake the tool for the reality;, lets not mistake the finger for the moon.”
Yes!
Just did a quick read through looks like some good stuff is cooking on the forum.
August 20, 2006 at 11:36 am #16633DogParticipantHow does one measure “accelerate the alchemical process”?
“the rate of change of velocity of an object with respect to time”. So it is a linear frame. With non linear and linear results. Do you trust your perception?
“I dont believe Lao Zi mentions at death if one is not acheived they will split and go into the collective and the opportunity for integration is lost. I beleive this is a great misunderstanding.”
The only opertunity that was lost was bagua. All the life force can do is give opportunity. Your “higher” self or true self is still in tact. But the hole that makes up bagua here and now is gone. Unless you have died meany times here ,or have made your ship to sail in the nile, its started over. It is a death process after death. Now I believe the true self gets better ever time. I also believe you have access to information and skills of your “past” lives. I also believe that “past” lives are not lived in a linear fashion one after the other. It is best not to limmit the life force to a linear form. We seem to pulse out. I will say that the perseption people have after death and then return I believe is still not the full process of death. I believe it is the starting process to braking down of duality and the ego. “It is much like a dog trying to comprahend what his love ones do while they are gone. He may not understand but he loves them when they return.”
August 20, 2006 at 11:53 am #16635NnonnthParticipantAugust 21, 2006 at 1:02 pm #16637baguaParticipantHi Dog:
My question is how does one compare “acceleration” between different methods? How can one measure if ht alchemical methods accelerate quicker than chan or other methods?
thanks,
bagau
August 21, 2006 at 1:29 pm #16639NnonnthParticipantTry ’em all! NN
August 21, 2006 at 2:51 pm #16641baguaParticipantNot so obvious.
If someone asks I want to select a system which do you recommend? Well we dont all have 5-10 years to waste. So there are people here that claim tao alchemy is more effecient and accelerates the transformation better than others, for all the reasons expressed on dialogues.
So, how is one measuring the effectiveness of white cloud alchemy over other systems? If they promote it then explain how.
bagua
August 21, 2006 at 3:31 pm #16643NnonnthParticipant -
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