Home › Forum Online Discussion › General › Book Review: The Reconnection by DR. Eric Pearl
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July 16, 2009 at 12:10 pm #31873StevenModerator
Hi Damon,
I’m going to be a little more direct–perhaps
less tactful–to cut through the jargon and more
clearly illustrate my feelings. Hopefully I
won’t piss anyone off in the process 🙂>>>There is a parallel to life as in space and time,
>>>where as the more present you are to the moment
>>>the more you are eternally aware.
>>>Another wards being more deeply aware of the
>>>present pierces though the concept of time
>>>(which gives you the sense that you are going
>>>to die physical) In a sense we are already beyond
>>>this physical life and can validate that feeling
>>>though a deeper awareness of the moment.I don’t really agree with this at all.
And this is part of the disagreement between myself
and bagua.This type of argument (to me) is like Eckhart Tolle-ism
taken to the extreme to whitewash what is really going on.Let me ask you/bagua this. Are you aware of the present
moment when you fall asleep at night? Do you have
continuous awareness as you shift into sleep? I don’t
know about you, but I lose awareness as I lose consciousness.
I go from having awareness to nothingness–periodically
punctuated by dreams–then a return to awareness as I wake up.
And here I haven’t died, I’ve just gone to sleep–my body is
still alive.So how much more so results upon death?
Stop and think about it.Really!
Stop and think about it!To me, it seems like it would be the sleep thing times infinity.
If you really look at the “going to sleep” analogy, you’ll
realize the “power of now” concept doesn’t apply. If it can’t
hold water for something simple like going to sleep, why should
I believe anything even more extreme–as in physical death.As far as physical death is concerned, applying this “power
of now” business is about as useful as the Christian fairy
tales given in the Bible. It’s a convenient trick to
distract you/make you feel better about the inevitable.
To me, it looks like buying into some dogma to avoid thinking
about a potentially scary topic. If it helps you live your
life now in a more free and enjoyable way, then fine. But
at least admit that’s what you are doing.As far as how to live one’s life, and how to enjoy every
single moment in one’s life and how to not attach outside influences,
emotions, etc. to your identity, I couldn’t agree more with
bagua. Too many people let feelings, outside actions,
judgements, etc. affect them and take that on as their identity;
rather than realizing that they are not their identity–they
are just part of the ebb and flow of life is spinning around
the core essential part of yourself. So on all of this, I
completely agree.But trying to apply it to physical death, seems a little like
nonsense to me (sorry).Best,
StevenJuly 16, 2009 at 1:11 pm #31875DamonMParticipantSteven,
I feel the tiger roaring. And I appreciate (and dont take offense in anyway) your directness!
Yes I understand how new age-ie this can feel, as these are just my philosophical thoughts, not my direct experience here. On a personal feeling I don’t have any issues or apprehension of physical death (as I feel we are physiologically born to handle death). BTW Im not trying to disagree with you in anyway, just sharing thoughts and ideas (which have their limits). I express this idea but the fact that things are changing remains the same.
Let me ask you/bagua this. Are you aware of the present
moment when you fall asleep at night? Do you have
continuous awareness as you shift into sleep? I don’t
know about you, but I lose awareness as I lose consciousness.
I go from having awareness to nothingness–periodically
punctuated by dreams–then a return to awareness as I wake up.
And here I haven’t died, I’ve just gone to sleep–my body is
still alive.I can say that I have a sort of awareness that is very different from being awake (and Im not talking about dreaming either). I do feel a presence that exists when I sleep but its very hard to describe in words, its very subtle, more subtle then thought, and its obviously pretty peaceful too. I have in the past had events occur right around that point between consciousness and falling asleep that have brought me back into consciousness and I had the chance to sort of reflect on that feeling. There are feelings occurring during sleep for me, so I dont relate to your limited sense of what consciousness is. There are different levels thats why I am interesting in understand the more subtle reasons of how as you put it.
“But trying to apply it to physical death, seems a little like
nonsense to me (sorry).”What drive you to feel this way? Dont you think your trying to reason issues that go beyond the written word or the limits of language here? Im trying to get you to explain it in more subtle ways. This is why poetry exist in language. And the personal purpose for me with music, and of course meditation (which is our common thread here).
I also have this feeling that many writers out there like Eckhart Tolle dont do anything for me anymore. As I feel I have read these kinds of writings and have gotten all I can from them. But not wanting to generaize too much, as there are a lot of very interesting people out there writting new angles on these kinds of things. Sorry that you feel a parallel to what I am saying but I am offering a dialog here.
Warm Regards,
DamonJuly 16, 2009 at 4:00 pm #31877baguaParticipantHi Steven:
“Are you aware of the present moment when you fall asleep at night? Do you have
continuous awareness as you shift into sleep? I don’t know about you, but I lose awareness as I lose consciousness. I go from having awareness to nothingness–periodically punctuated by dreams–then a return to awareness as I wake up.
And here I haven’t died, I’ve just gone to sleep–my body is
still alive.
*********************************
Exactly.
You have little control of much of your life, but your life lives on, because your awaken consciousness if not your essence or true self. You are the life force that sleeps, awakens and functions.Being aware of present awareness is the method to know you are not solely your thoughts, your emotions, your dreams, your fantasies, your decoctions. It is the way to directly experience that which is creation itself. This is the essence of taoist cultivation in my experience.
Intellect or ego is not capable of understanding your true nature, you need to access other aspects of your self.
“Stop and think about it.”
Really!
Stop and think about it!”
***************************
This is the essence of the condition. Thinking will not bring the answer. You must use other aspects of you to perceive your nature, not your intellect, not your thoughts. Get to know that part of you that exists before thinking, which also exists during thinking. When you see this clearly it will change how you understand your thoughts, your thinking faculty.You may want to read lao zi, tao teh ching, chapters 5, 7, 10 amd 25. I think these clearly express this reality.
bagua
July 16, 2009 at 4:37 pm #31879StevenModerator>>>I feel the tiger roaring.
I am a tiger, after all. LOL.
That’s what tigers do 🙂Just don’t take it personally 🙂
>>>I can say that I have a sort of awareness
>>>that is very different from being awake
>>>(and Im not talking about dreaming either).
>>>I do feel a presence that exists when I sleep
>>>but its very hard to describe in words,
>>>its very subtle, more subtle then thought,
>>>and its obviously pretty peaceful too.
>>>I have in the past had events occur right
>>>around that point between consciousness and
>>>falling asleep that have brought me back into
>>>consciousness and I had the chance to sort of
>>>reflect on that feeling. There are feelings
>>>occurring during sleep for me, so I dont
>>>relate to your limited sense of what consciousness
>>>is. There are different levels thats why I am
>>>interesting in understand the more subtle reasons
>>>of how as you put it.I don’t have any direct experience with that.
Being honest, I can only say that I have some kind
of awareness during dream time. But I’ll give you
the benefit of the doubt on that one.>>>Dont you think your trying to reason issues
>>>that go beyond the written word or the limits
>>>of language here?You can still talk about such things using
approximations. That’s part of the fun and learning.
I agree that you shouldn’t identify yourself with
thinking or the mind, but that doesn’t mean you
can’t use it as a tool. Completely demonizing the
mind and logical thought is an avoidance tactic that
some cleverly use to give authority to claims that
can’t be defended (note: I’m not lumping you into this
category; I’m only recording this comment as a matter of fact).The underlying structure/pattern
of the universe, while quite possibly existing beyond
comprehension, should still have facets that can be
approximated by language and thought–since we are a
product of it after all.That’s my issue. I just do not see why living in the
present moment, and recognizing your core identity, means
that you can’t consider what physical death is–as a
legitimate source of inquiry. It’s supplementary, and
need not interfere with one living in the now.Smiles to you,
StevenJuly 16, 2009 at 5:10 pm #31881StevenModeratorHi bagua,
S: “Are you aware of the present moment when you fall asleep at night? Do you have
continuous awareness as you shift into sleep? I don’t know about you, but I lose awareness as I lose consciousness. I go from having awareness to nothingness–periodically punctuated by dreams–then a return to awareness as I wake up.
And here I haven’t died, I’ve just gone to sleep–my body is
still alive.
*********************************
B:
Exactly.
You have little control of much of your life, but your life lives on, because your awaken consciousness if not your essence or true self. You are the life force that sleeps, awakens and functions.———————————————-
If I am asleep, and you are awake, I don’t have the awareness you have.
Thus the part of the lifeforce that is me is not the same as the part of
the lifeforce that is you. Right?Is there any awareness of “the part that is me” after death?
And if not, can that be changed?
I think these are reasonable questions to ask.>>>Being aware of present awareness is the method
>>>to know you are not solely your thoughts, your
>>>emotions, your dreams, your fantasies, your decoctions.
>>>It is the way to directly experience that which
>>>is creation itself. This is the essence of taoist
>>>cultivation in my experience.I agree that this a way to live from a freer more
open space and experience the joy of life, but I do not
see how it addresses the question of physical death.I similarly respond to the rest of your post, as I see
how it applies to living here in the now, but fail to
see its relevance to my question.This is why–at least as of now–I tend to agree more
with Michael Winn’s view of the afterlife, as he’s providing
some kind of map of what he believes happens to the
individual.I don’t yet see a map sourcing from your philosophy–maybe
I missed it–which is why I feel it to be incomplete. If there
is a map, please clarify as I’m not seeing one currently.Do you know what I’m talking about? 🙂
Smiling and enjoying the moment;
and hoping you are enjoying the debate,
StevenJuly 16, 2009 at 5:29 pm #31883baguaParticipantHello Steven:
If I am asleep, and you are awake, I don’t have the awareness you have.
Thus the part of the lifeforce that is me is not the same as the part of
the lifeforce that is you. Right?
****************
How would you know?Is there any awareness of “the part that is me” after death?
And if not, can that be changed?
I think these are reasonable questions to ask.
*****************************************
Why is this important, who is this important to? Is it just your ego, which is incapable of understanding a non-dual state? An ego or intellect that any theory can never satisfy it?This is why–at least as of now–I tend to agree more
with Michael Winn’s view of the afterlife, as he’s providing
some kind of map of what he believes happens to the
individual. I don’t yet see a map sourcing from your philosophy–maybe
I missed it–which is why I feel it to be incomplete. If there
is a map, please clarify as I’m not seeing one currently.
********************************
There is no mapping of afterlife, there is no theoretical explanation of it.
Which is a good thing, as speculation, imagination and theories is not what taoist cultivation is about, not some new age / atlantean channeling taoist hybrid theory.Mapping our this life seems to be challenging enough for most people and they will create all kinds of things they think are important to avoid with the here and now and the reality of their life.
Does a baby worry about death? After life? Why?
bagua
July 16, 2009 at 6:27 pm #31885StevenModeratorHi bagua:
S:If I am asleep, and you are awake, I don’t have the awareness you have.
Thus the part of the lifeforce that is me is not the same as the part of
the lifeforce that is you. Right?
****************
B:How would you know?————————
OK, I suppose I could rephrase in another context as:
If we are both awake, I don’t have the same awareness you have.
Thus the part of the lifeforce that is me is not the same as the part
of the lifeforce that is you. Right?S: Is there any awareness of “the part that is me” after death?
And if not, can that be changed?
I think these are reasonable questions to ask.
*****************************************
B:: Why is this important, who is this important to? Is it just your ego, which is incapable of understanding a non-dual state? An ego or intellect that any theory can never satisfy it?———————————————–
Because I enjoy being alive, and see no reason why I should
let it end, if I don’t have to. This party’s fun, and would
like to continue partying if possible. If you are at an
amusement park that closes at 9pm, it doesn’t hurt to ask if
you could continue past 9. You might not be allowed to, but
what’s the harm in asking? Doesn’t hurt anything. If you
get lucky and figure out a way, then great. Nothing ventured,
nothing gained. Moreover, you don’t have to let asking the question
wreck your fun while it’s open.>>>Does a baby worry about death? After life? Why?
I don’t really know; can’t communicate with one 🙂
Who knows–a baby might worry about it a good deal, being
helpless and all 🙂 Babies sure cry a lot. 🙂>>>There is no mapping of afterlife, there is no theoretical
>>>explanation of it. Which is a good thing, as speculation,
>>>imagination and theories is not what taoist cultivation is
>>>about, not some new age / atlantean channeling taoist hybrid theory.
>>>Mapping our this life seems to be challenging enough
>>>for most people and they will create all kinds of
>>>things they think are important to avoid with the
>>>here and now and the reality of their life.Fair enough.
I respect this answer, as I feel you’ve now addressed my question.
Thanks for the exchange,
StevenJuly 17, 2009 at 12:55 am #31887baguaParticipantHi Steven:
OK, I suppose I could rephrase in another context as:
If we are both awake, I don’t have the same awareness you have.
Thus the part of the lifeforce that is me is not the same as the part
of the lifeforce that is you. Right?
*******************************
I believe there is a common experience we share, this is our being from the same source and is what realized people talk about and agree upon. Yes, we dont have the same emotional, intellectual or worldly knowledge.Because I enjoy being alive, and see no reason why I should
let it end, if I don’t have to. This party’s fun, and would
like to continue partying if possible. If you are at an
amusement park that closes at 9pm, it doesn’t hurt to ask if
you could continue past 9. You might not be allowed to, but
what’s the harm in asking? Doesn’t hurt anything. If you
get lucky and figure out a way, then great. Nothing ventured,
nothing gained. Moreover, you don’t have to let asking the question
wreck your fun while it’s open.
***************************
Do you know why you are in this world now? Do you now why you wake up in the morning, why your heart beats? Why not have the same faith there is a naturalness to whatever happens after this life as you do that you will awaken tomorrow? Lao Zi clearly presents the guidelines for living now in tune with the tao and becoming part of its eternal nature.>>>Does a baby worry about death? After life? Why?
I don’t really know; can’t communicate with one 🙂
*******************
That is excellent, an honest direct answer based on your experience.I really think tao alchemists should read the Tao Teh Ching as they do their cultivation and let that be their guide, its not a mistake that book and its meaning is the centerpiece of every variation of Tao teachings. I dont think you will find discussion of after life there, its about this life and how to access the tao inside oneself now and how that is the entry to the eternal aspect of tao/oneself.
Nice chatting and playing.
bagua
July 19, 2009 at 9:30 pm #31889singing oceanParticipantFrom my experience as an alchemist, I am not having any issue being present, in fact the practice of nei dan is a very embodied way of experiencing the constant birth and death, the arrival and return of the present moment from the dao throught the wuji, and formless planes into the present physical plane and back again (and yes, I feel it as a connected continuum). The fact that lao Zi doesn’t really go into detail on any of the intermediary planes doesn’t bother me in the slightest…have you ever read the book “Nei Yeh (Inner Training)” as translated by Harold Roth? I believe I have asked you this before. It is thought to be a precursor to the dao de jing, meaning that focuses mainly on qi cultivation rather than political astuteness.
The modern interpretation of ancient books is really a question of interpretation and trying to get an absolute meaning is the game that religious fanatics have been at for millenia. Far better in my opinion to look at the modern practice that is being done here and now, and how its been passed down, and the process that its gone through,and better yet the effect it has on a person (practice of anything always involves interpretation and innovation as it is a living process). Dao alchemists do read the dao de jing, and the question here is not so much whether we practice the wisdom in the dao de jing, but what our actual spiritual practices are.
To be clear, you are looking to the dao de jing as your sole source of daoist practice, and we are looking at a wide range of practitioners both before and after the dao de jing (and including it), and even looking at methods of spiritual refinement from outside china that correspond to and clarify the present practices that we have.
This issue has been discussed at length but it is in poor language that we keep replaying the same discussion, although interesting points do come out in the process.
You are free to keep saying that you believe solely in the practice of the dao de jing, but please be clear about it, because when you also say that you agree with alchemists or that you practice alchemy but then constantly imply that it is unnecessary, there is something contradictory happening that I am unsure you are aware of.
Chris
July 20, 2009 at 12:59 am #31891baguaParticipantFrom my experience as an alchemist, I am not having any issue being present, in fact the practice of nei dan is a very embodied way of experiencing the constant birth and death, the arrival and return of the present moment from the dao throught the wuji, and formless planes into the present physical plane and back again (and yes, I feel it as a connected continuum). The fact that lao Zi doesn’t really go into detail on any of the intermediary planes doesn’t bother me in the slightest…have you ever read the book “Nei Yeh (Inner Training)” as translated by Harold Roth? I believe I have asked you this before. It is thought to be a precursor to the dao de jing, meaning that focuses mainly on qi cultivation rather than political astuteness.
*****************************
I have read Nei Yeh and from my view its fundamentally the same as tao teh ching, i have asked for people to list some quotes and lets discuss them, but never has there been any takers.Tao Teh ching has little about political astuteness, if this is your understanding of Tao Teh Ching we really have little to discuss.
To be clear, you are looking to the dao de jing as your sole source of daoist practice, and we are looking at a wide range of practitioners both before and after the dao de jing (and including it), and even looking at methods of spiritual refinement from outside china that correspond to and clarify the present practices that we have.
*****************
Well thanks for telling me what I am doing. If one is using other stuff maybe we should give it another name and not call it tao alchemy or nei dan.You are free to keep saying that you believe solely in the practice of the dao de jing, but please be clear about it, because when you also say that you agree with alchemists or that you practice alchemy but then constantly imply that it is unnecessary, there is something contradictory happening that I am unsure you are aware of.
************************
We have different views of alchemy, of what it does. And I often disagree with your interpretations of discussions.I stopped interacting with you long ago, maybe its best you follow that too. There is plenty of space for all people.
regards,
baguaJuly 20, 2009 at 2:28 pm #31893singing oceanParticipantWe do have different interpretations of alchemy…I have often asked you to explain what your view on it is, but you usually go off on your tangent of talking about the dao de jing.
Do you see the difficulty here? There is no interaction, either it is a barrier of language or two people just railroading over the other with their own description of what they do. This is a free and open site so I see no reason why i shouldn’t respond to your posts, in fact I feel compelled to do so because the views you present seem very one sided, so i am here to present the other side.
I’ll start the discussion on the Nei Yeh by pasting some of the posts I had in a previous discussions with chan buddhists on this site. I don’t ever recall you saying that you’d like to discuss that book, and again its just a book, not a practice that people can evaluate effects from so it is only open to intellectual discussion and as such, different interpretations.
Note: the authour translates terms in the following way:
Jing – Vital essence
Qi – Vital breath
Shen – Numinous“Te” or virtue has always been historically associated with the vital Jing Shen (the organs) through classical chinese medicine, thus cultivation of virtue is body cultivation, although only semi local as the shen are on a different vibrational frequency.
One
1. The vital jing of all things:
2. It is this that brings them to life.
3. It generates the five grains below
4. And becomes the constellated stars above.
5. When flowing amid the heavens and the earth
6. We call it ghostly and spirit (shen).
7. When stored within the chests of human beings,
8. We call them sages.(note: if it is stored in the chests of human beings, it is semi-local, and how does it get there? through cultivation!)
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