Can one earn salvation or imortality through good works alone? n/t

Hey Dog,

I think you need to define what you mean by
“earn salvation”
and
“earn immortality” first.

Many heated arguments have taken place on this
forum in part due to disagreement on what
these things mean.

So, at the very least, explain what these
terms mean to you. 🙂

S

OK, I’ll play:

It doesn’t make sense that salvation/immortality is a goal.

How much Daoist cultivation (quantifiably speaking) is necessary
to ensure immortality? How strongly would one need to believe
in Christ before salvation is given? How much karmic debt
needs to be erased before you are free of it so you can
go to nirvana? etc. etc. etc.

Any such marker seems pretty damn arbitrary, so it can’t be
true that it is a destination (unless, of course, the
Daoist tales are true and after cultivating for a REALLY
long time, an immortal shows up and takes you before the
Jade Empress to grant you immortality . . . I suppose that
possibility remains to be seen, but I digress . . .)

In any event, it’s pretty unlikely that it’s a goal.

Salvation/immortality is a process.

All that is required is sincere interest on the part of the
seeker and the willingness to truly internalize the teachings
and let them change you.

In terms of Christianity, the “standard” church-goer
that goes weekly, but rarely thinks about spiritual stuff
otherwise . . . the person that for all intents and purposes
is just going through the motions, blindly following
a habit . . . is not part of the process in my opinion.

However, also in terms of Christianity, the person who
suddenly–maybe because of where they are in their life–gives
themselves over to the belief system, becomes “reborn” and
allows its teachings to totally change them into a new and
“better” person, they are on the process of salvation.

Similarly, with this Daoist path, the person who learns
qigong, but doesn’t practice, doesn’t make it priority in
their life, won’t be in the process of immortality.
Doing qigong without intention, just going through the motions,
turns it into western exercise, and again is not part of the process.

However, on this path, the person who learns qigong, but
instead commits themselves to the teachings, allows themselves
to explore the inner and outer consciousness fields, uses it
as a learning and teaching tool, and opening themselves
up to change . . . such a person is in the process.

It doesn’t matter so much whether we are talking about
Christianity, Daoism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Wicca, or whatever.
All of these are different possible SUCCESSFUL spiritual
roads laid down by earlier successful seekers.
All that is required are two things:

1. True commitment and devotion to the path

2. One needs to have the openness to internalize the
teachings, and to allow it to change you on a fundamental level.
(Blindly and mindlessly following does not count)

By following these two rules ON WHICHEVER ROAD YOU ARE ON,
you become altered through time by the associated spiritual
technology. You incrementally change and thus more and more
you become connected with God-consciousness, regardless of
the underlying system.

Mathematically speaking, the “percent saved” or “percent immortal”
you are–if you could even quantify such a thing–would be
in direct proportion to how far down the road you’ve traveled.
The only caveat to this analogy is that there is no upper bound
to “how saved” or “how immortal” you can become. There is always
the possibility for growth, for change. In fact, in some ways,
a static end goal runs contrary to the idea of continuous change,
as continuous change governs the law of all-that-is
(unless of course you could advance yourself to a state
beyond the Tao itself–superceding it . . . but in this
hypothetical musing, “then you’re done” and what fun is that? 🙂 )

Going back to your question: “Can you earn salvation/immortality
through good works alone?”

This can now be rephrased as “Can you be in the process/on the road
of salvation/immortality through good works alone?”

The answer now depends on what you mean by “good works”, and whether
you are internalizing these things and allowing them to change you,
to bring you closer to God-consciousness.

If a person is doing good/helpful deeds, but is not internalizing
their actions–if they are just doing them because of a
pride/pat-on-the-back type desire, then the answer is NO. They
are simply using the “good deeds” as an external proxy to give
themselves a “high”. If, on the other hand, the person is
internalizing their experiences–if they use the experiences
to help open up their heart further to all of mankind–to
the universe itself–as a sort-of external inner smile practice,
then the answer is YES.

Best,
Steven

>>>How much Daoist cultivation (quantifiably speaking)
>>>is necessary to ensure immortality? How strongly
>>>would one need to believe Christ before salvation
>>>is given? Can muslim enter heaven through terroristic acts?…
>>>Mathematically speaking, the “percent saved” or
>>>”percent immortal” you are-if you could even quantify
>>>such a thing-would be in direct proportion to how far
>>>down the road you’ve traveled.
>>>>-STEVEN, 2009-08-25

I never said anything about Muslims and terrorist acts.
Please don’t misquote me.

For one, I never mentioned anything about that because
it’s a sensitive issue for a lot of people.

For two, not all Muslims are terrorists.

For three, I don’t think its right to judge others.
Even though we in America view the terror activities
from radical Islamic extremism as despicable, they
in their twisted thinking believe they are doing the
right thing–acting in God’s accord. By their thinking,
we are evil, sinful people that need to be swept away–
not unlike the flood from the Holy Bible, the destruction
of Sodom and Gomorrah, etc.

The same can be applied to Adolf Hitler or the members of
the Manson family for that matter–all individuals with
sick twisted thinking that from their perspective thought
that what they were doing was right.

On a personal level, I don’t feel that their actions were
OK, but I don’t feel I’m qualified to judge them on their
ability to go to heaven or some such thing based on their
actions.

Bottom Line: I choose NOT to judge others.

I think the correct action that one should always take
is to only worry about oneself, and to not worry about others.
Since no one is perfect, there is always internal work to
be done. There is no reason to be poking your nose into
what other people do.

The only thing I suggest with regard to others is to hold
all other human beings with compassion and respect, and
provide loving kindness to their situation. If people
would just simply follow that rule, I think a lot
of problems in the world would just simply vanish.

Dropping judgements of others is the core essence of
all teachings.

Taoism:

“In comparison, the sage,
in harmony with the Tao,
needs no comparisons,
and when he makes them, knows
that comparisons are judgements,
and just as relative to he who makes them,
and to the situation,
as they are to that on which
the judgement has been made.”
–Ch 2 (Daodejing, Laozi)

Buddhism:
“Not the faults of others or the things done
or not done by others, but only one’s own things
done and not done should be considered.”
–Verse 50 (Dhammapada, Buddha)

Christianity:

“Do not judge, or you too will be judged.
For in the same way you judge others,
you will be judged, and with the measure you use,
it will be measured to you.
Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your
brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank
in your own eye? How can you say to your brother,
‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all
the time there is a plank in your own eye?”
–Matthew 7:1-4 (Holy Bible, Jesus)

Steven

How do we live in the “yuan state”?

Do you consider the “yuan state” to be part of a dynamic process, or is it fixed?

Is there anything beyond it or is it absolute?

The only American novelist living today who may conceivably be possessed by genius.
-Norman Mailer on William S. Burroughs

I hope it’s OK to use citations as I sometimes do, the seldom when I write or have written messages for this forum. For me it’s kind of variation of the so called cut-up technique which I associate personally especially with late Mr. Burroughs (who might have been possessed by the Ugly Spirit).

We have such a situation in Finland, like for example it’s in Sweden, that studying in university is practically free and although I could study in University of Helsinki immediately majoring in East Asian Studies I haven’t used this chance. So I would think I would be able to write my messages (as long I am allowed and I continue) nearer to the traditional spirit and conceptions of Dao.

Remark: Dakini (sky dancer) Yeshe Tsogyel, one of the numerous consorts of Padmasambhava, according to her hagiography when being practicing some quite extreme austerities started to hallucinate immense, threatening, demonic male sexual organs or maybe simply demons in male form who wanted to exhibit their penises and anuses to her or at least get some kind of reaction from her. Anneliese “only” saw, anyway disturbing, visions of devilish grimaces.

Short retelling about Anneliese’s case: Anneliese Michel was raised in a strict Catholic family and being a devout girl, she tried to make reparations for the sins of wayward priests, sinner youth and drug addicts by sleeping on a bare floor in the middle of winter. When she was 16, and still in high school, Anneliese began to suffer from convulsions. Soon Anneliese started also experiencing devilish hallucinations while praying (Cheshire Cat(s)?). In few years she was suffering from depression and considering suicide. Her behavior became increasingly bizarre: she tore off her clothes, ate coal , and licked up her own urine etc.

I think posting by Smudge has some deep points about the topics of this thread in condensed form but it severely lacked the point that first you don’t necessarily meet what is good what come to this so called higher self, but one probably meets it’s demonic manifestations. David Shen Verdesi has said something about ‘ghost qi’/Michael Winn has spoken about ‘demonic immortality.’

Comrade H

Ps. One don’t necessarily make mistakes only by chance. Trickster makes mistakes also purposefully.

There can be no distinction between Tracking and Awareness; thus, Tracking becomes the doorway to the Universe.
-Tom Brown, Jr.

http://www.fotofetch.com

Nothing is fixed, absolutely nothing.

Wu Wei is the taoist term/approach that can allow one to live in a yuan or natural state. Its more an approach of how one experiences life, wu wei allows the natural unfolding of life, without resistance, stagnation, suppression or repression. This means not desires, no judgments, no attempt at creating something, but to allow ourselves to being open to experiencing life at it is, nothing extra.

How do we live in the “yuan state”?

Do you consider the “yuan state” to be part of a dynamic process, or is it fixed?

Is there anything beyond it or is it absolute?

I think you are making a judgment that its not natural to respond with anger and even stopping a situation, if this is a natural response then you are trusting the universe, its a deep response and trust. Emotions are natural, when they are polarized to an extreme and when we try to hold them, retain them, keep them alive and not let them go it becomes a problem.

A mom protecting her child, a dad protecting his child, with any means is a natural response.

I think what is important is that your cultivation and experience be the driving force of your actions and expression, we seek to get to this point, this is a goal of tao cultivation, your actions and responses in life is rooted directly in your experience of life/tao, yuan self, true nature.