November 18, 2005 at 3:17 pm #8483
Hi, I have benn practicing all of the Taoist techniques that I have read in the “Multi Orgasmic Man” and “Taoist Secrets of Love”. I’m able to close my PC muscle and draw the energy up but when I get to contractile orgasm I have a retrograde ejaculation. I can see a little bit of semen in my urine. Going by the book this is incorrect practice, so my questions are: how much energy am I loosing when this happens and how can I have a contractile orgasm like this and not have retrograde ejaculation???? Any sugeestions please……
Thank youNovember 19, 2005 at 12:00 am #8484
More important to focus on opening your dantain and the orbit – that is what really controls chi loss, not a speck of sperm.
michaelNovember 19, 2005 at 3:01 am #8486
“More important to focus on opening your dantain and the orbit – that is what really controls chi loss, not a speck of sperm.
Sperm loss doesnt have anything to do with losing chi?November 19, 2005 at 6:30 pm #8488
“More important to focus on opening your dantain and the orbit – that is what really controls chi loss, not a speck of sperm.
Sperm loss doesnt have anything to do with losing chi?
Yes, sperm loss has a lot to do with loosing chi. Michael’s position seems to be that if you successfully open your channels and connect with the “source” of all energy then you need not worry about the actual physical substance of sperm.
It’s a nice theory but there are some problems with it.
First, it contradicts virtually all historic daoist sexual teaching. Daoist sexual teaching could not be clearer on this issue. Don’t waste sperm. Period.
Second, although maybe people as proficient and powerful as michael winn don’t ever have to worry about energy loss because of their superior meditative ability, people like me (and I suspect you) need help in conserving energy, and conserving sperm is one of the surest ways to do that.
Now to your original question, which Michael didn’t answer.
I can’t tell you exactly what the issue is but can give you some general suggestions.
The most important thing about this practice is to become very familiar with your own body and what it feels like at all stages of the practice. Only that way can you make the subtle adjustments needed to make it work.
If you are injaculating, pay attention to whether you are clenching too much or too little, too early or too late.
Also consider whether you are actually fully erect when you injaculate. When I’ve injaculated it’s generally been when I am not fully erect (don’t know why, and this may be my own body, but it’s worth considering).
Finally, consider staying away from orgasm altogether for a while — that is do the practice without trying to get to multiple non-ejaculatory orgasms. Just get comfortable being erect at a plateau of feeling without climbing.
These are just suggestions. Again, you really have to keep paying attention to and playing with your own body.
Good luck.November 19, 2005 at 7:34 pm #8490
Thanks spyrelx, I also agree that I need to stay at plateau without trying to force the orgasm to happen. I think I’m just trying to hard. Attention to my arousal and patience will get me there eventually. I really dont understand why Michael would say that because it does contradict Taoist teching ,and Mantak Chia, that loss of sperm and chi go hand in hand. Anyways, thanks for your help.November 20, 2005 at 8:19 am #8492
you want to birth stones or new lifeNovember 20, 2005 at 11:35 am #8494
“you want to birth stones or new life”
Huh???????? How about a complete sentence there, maybe one that makes sense.November 20, 2005 at 6:04 pm #8496
It’s my understanding that the latest thinking from Winn and perhaps even Chia is that if you sucessfully do the big draw then you’ve effectively taken all the energy out of your sperm, so it doesn’t really matter if you ejaculate. I heard that Chia has said something like do the big draw nine times during sex and then it’s OK to ejaculate. My guess is Chia would tell you that there’s still some energy loss there but it’s minimal compared to what you would have if you didn’t do the draw.
As I say, I don’t really agree with this theory and, in any event, I don’t think it really applies to me in where I am in my practice. So I conserve sperm. And I reccomend conservation to anyone who’s not an immortal like chia and winn 🙂November 20, 2005 at 9:18 pm #8498
Interesting, so now you can take the energy out of your sperm? It seems like this change of thinking contradicts everything they have writen about. Why wasnt this ever mentioned in their books?????
Spyrelx, I hear what your saying about conserving, I try to conserve as much as I can. However I think its good to release sometimes, how many times a month do you think a man could ejaculate and still keep a good level of chi?November 21, 2005 at 12:07 am #8500
I think they came up witht the theory after they wrote the books.
About how many times you can ejaculate in a month, it depends on the man. There is some ancient text about it. I think the MultiOrgasmic Man quotes it. It’s something like 5 days if you’re 20, 10 days if you’re 40, one month if you’re 60. I don’t remember.
My own advice is for general health maintenance, once every one to two weeks, depending on your age and general health. But again, it’s really an individual thing. See how your own body feels.November 21, 2005 at 7:55 am #8502
it takes your energy to make it alive
you don’t feed me
and yet you expect me to spoon feed youNovember 21, 2005 at 3:21 pm #8504
“you want to birth stones or new life” “a key
it takes your energy to make it alive a hygene”
haha, if anyone can decipher this let me know. Yes I dont spoon feed you you Jernej, but thanks for your input.November 21, 2005 at 4:35 pm #8506
I would like to expand upon what I understand to be Michael’s expressed postition here, since it was so short and succinct.
“More important to focus on opening your dantain and the orbit….”
More important means he is pointing at a different EMPHASIS.
Spyrlex is discussing his knowledge of varioius sexual schools of thought as passed on in what texts may be available in the modern era.
Michael is coming at it from the overall perspective of Taoist Alchemical practice.
The trouble is that doing sexual practice as the first step upon entering the big world of Taoist practices is that Sexual energy is WAY too powerful to be dealt with without first engaging in exploration of your energy body system.
Meaning…Sexual energy work is ADVANCED!!
The problem is that too many men have engaged the healing Tao techniques primarily to address sexual energy without first dealing with the preliminary steps of starting the basic practices and gaining some mastery of them.
So Micheal’s position that it is more important to open the Tantien and the orbit is valid whether or not you accept that Sperm loss equals drastic energy loss.
I think as a teacher he is trying to help in the most direct way possible.
Work on the basics before you attempt to wrestle with the dragon of sexual energy. Find out more about balancing your whole system before you set it on fire by overloading the circuits with retention practices.
How do you even know on an energetic level what effect sperm loss has upon you if you are not familiar with the primary energy center and movement of the yin/yan channels of the orbit, not to mention the further refinement of the 8 extra vessels and organ energie required in Fusion.
To put it in terms of HT curriculum.
1. Inner smile/6 healing sounds
2. Microcosmic orbit flow.
3. Fusion of the 5 elements I,II, III
4. Healing Love.
Somewhere in there should be basic iron shirt, or basic standing chi kung practices, but the main point is that 1,2 and 3 come well before #4.
I cannot stress this enough, and I don’t think it has been stressed enough by M.Chia, and though I see M.Winn’s current approach to the subject as much more cautious, I cannot say that even he emphasizes caution enough in doing prerequesite work before working on healing love practice.
Remember that it is called “healing love”. This is not merely a physical practice. too much emphasis is put on the physical. this seems to be a common theme in my writings lately, but I hold to it as an important point.
This practice is about connecting the physical to the Chi processes and developing the shen and communication with the shen level, as much as it is about gaining more control over the physical processes.
In fact the techniques for men to gain control over their orgasm are less important when the energy connections are more wide open.
Orgasmic upward draw is accomplished by moving the chi away from the genitals into a recirculation in the whole system, which should not be thought of as merely brining sperm/energy up the spine. You are in fact vibrating the chi from the physical layer to the more subtle extraphysical chi and emotion and shen layers. This is the goal. If your goal is to have sex for hours on end without sperm loss, then the HT curriculum is not truly what you need. On the other hand if you do engage in marathon sex and retention without reference to the whole context of Taoist spiritual practice I am of the opinion that for most people you are heading down a road which may lead to trouble of various sorts.
So, in summation, sperm retention may or may not be VERY IMPORTANT, but my position, and I believe Michael’s as well is that the emphasis should be on overall balance and harmony within your WHOLE system over emphasis on sperm retention first.
CraigNovember 21, 2005 at 5:16 pm #8508
Since Spyrelx and you have brought this up I think it is important to point out that you have missed a MAJOR point.
Without looking for more than a couple minutes to find a reference I would like to cite on page 114 of “Taoist Secrets of Love” the following quote:
“The methods of chi cultivation explained in detail in this book – from Testicle Breathing to the Big Draw method to the valley orgasm – all involve drawing sexual energy stored in the testicles up the spinal column and into the brain.”
Sexual energy in this context refers to CHI. So right there in this book published first in 1984 by M.Chia and M.Winn is the description of taking energy out of your sperm (as you term it.)
To say that this is new ground is a bit silly, but maybe you have no exposure to this early material.
I have studied this material for many years, but I must admit that I have never read the Multi orgasmic man, or MO couple. I cannot vouch for what is there, and like many long time HT people I feel(based on hearsay) they are overtly popculture and throw out the context of Taoist practice in favor of making the ideas more approachable to mass culture.
To go back to the main point of this post, the sexual practice is PRIMARILY aimed at recycling energy from sexual activity, and not primarily at sperm retention in and of itself.
I think that Sperm retention is beneficial, but that it can also be problematic when taken out of context.
Tao practice to me is about being natural while at the same time adhering to the laws of nature. Losing too much energy is harmful to the system. Storing energy without having the proper storehouse can also be harmful.
Once you have a direct experience of what your energy is doing you can be natural with the process and have and ejaculation when it seems natural, or not have one if that seems natural as the case may be. Forcing oneself is not natural and therefore not a healthful approach to Tao practice.
The process involves extracting the chi from the Jing and storing/transforming the chi. If all you are aware of is the Sperm, the physical aspect, you are missing a whole lot.
Finally it is important to me to point out that we are not talking about Monk practice here. We are talking about practice of people (mostly men in the case of this discussion) who are doing Tao practice as part of everyday life.
Celibacy and semen retention are another avenue and I don’t think this approach is really addressed in HT context either by M.Winn or M.Chia.
If this is your path I still think the techniques of Healing Love are an important toolkit to deal with these energies, but it is a different game so to speak when one is withdrawn from sexual relations in this way.
Big topic, and time is limited.
Good luck to both.
CraigNovember 21, 2005 at 8:09 pm #8510
I in no way meant to imply that it’s all about sperm.
There is no question that the whole point of the practice is drawing sexual energy from the sperm and genitals and circulating it (I would characterize this energy more as “jing” than “chi”, but no matter).
There is also no question that just retaining sperm without circulation or some other outlet for the stored energy (e.g. exercise) is neither balanced nor healthy.
My point — which perhaps I didn’t articulate clearly enough — was that most practitioners will NOT be fully squeezing ALL the energy out of their sperm and circulating it, even if they are practicing the big draw, circulation, etc. So ejaculation will, for most of us, ALMOST ALWAYS result in energy loss.
The only “new ground” I meant to address was the idea that one could pull ALL this energy out and THEREFORE NOT LOOSE ANYTHING BY ejaculating. To me this is a recent development in Chia’s/Winn’s thinking on the subject and, as I say, not really relevant to most of us.
Your post is absolutely correct though, and a welcome addition to the discussion.
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