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I believe the relationships (philosophy’s) between Daoism and Buddhism are complex, as they influenced each other in many ways while often competing for influence. The arrival of Buddhism forced Daoism to renew and restructure itself and address mystical questions raised by Buddhism. Buddhism was seen as a kind of foreign Daoism and its scriptures were translated into Chinese with “Daoist vocabulary”. Chuang Tzu’s philosophy especially influenced the Chinese form of Buddhism known as “Chan”, which later developed into the Japanese form of Zen. The Bodhisattva, Kwan Yin (Guan Yin) was an important goddess for both Buddhists and Daoists.
I studied with a Daoist who taught me Alchemical formulas and a very old system of Kunlun Mountain Nei Dan Gong movement on the West Coast for many years and I often asked him about the issues of Daoist vs. Buddhist thought and all the great debates on theory’s, he often stated that”Emptiness” is just the beginning & sometimes the end for some and that all the alchemical processes require great committment to proceed further. He believed those who had to dissect and think so much will never get it; belief in the system is key and that any doubt will cloud your commitment on your path. But he said this is Western Culture, the Great Monkey Mind culture; I call this “Analyzation to paralization”, possibly a western epidemic”.
He also told me any doubt will ultimately lead me on the “monkey mind path”, of swinging from tree to tree looking for the better Banana which will never produce any results at all except exaustion from always thinking, searching and looking too hard. For him accepting a student was a honor for “you” and that commitment & trust is a must.
The Daoist Tradition’s are the Chinese culture & the thousand’s of years of the Master’s traditions should be proof enough. Not everyone will attain every level and that meditations, formulas, forms are just procedual processes that serve you for that level of attainment & you will advance.
Are the formulas real, I have a student who has began alchemy about 1 & 1/2 ago and has no chinese arts expierence has a Green dragon and White Tiger helping her achieve greater clarity & processes when she is in her sessions through Lesser & greater, she is a famous intuitive and is just astounded by the great clarity, and speed of change in the formulas. When she called me one day asking the signifigance of these animals I just chuckled..I said your alchemical field is really starting to take shape; when she learned more she was impressed that these animals are now with her especially she has no chinese arts background. So the point here is how the field takes shape even with a novice.
My final thought is: whatever work’s for someone; thats were they need to be. You will change throughout your life and so will your beliefs and for that matter your practices. I for one don’t have a affinity for scholarly interpetation, I rather just practice and move forward each and every day…Snowlion
Nice peice, Snowlion.
I draw my conclusion from what Zhang, Sanfeng believed. That Buddhism, Daoism, and Confucianism are all different routes heading towards the same goal. I like using both Buddhism and Daoism to get there. For me, they are one.
Fajin
hi fajin:
Below I quote you.
“I draw my conclusion from what Zhang, Sanfeng believed. That Buddhism, Daoism, and Confucianism are all different routes heading towards the same goal. I like using both Buddhism and Daoism to get there. For me, they are one.”
Can you share how Zhang, San Feng used buddhism, what principles, theories and methods he used in his alchemy and teachings that included Buddhism?
Thanks,
bagua
Hi Bagua,
The alchemy that is taught where I am has supposedly originated from Zhang. It was passed down generations and generations by Wudang Taoists. I can’t tell you everything because I have not done their alchemy myself, because at the town school only the beginner phases are taught. You would have to rent a retreat house in the mountains and there are two teachers there who teach all the steps.
I know the theory and breakdown of the methods.
I am the level where you “look” and “hear” internally at the lower dantian. This is like one-pointedness in Zen. You keep doing this until an elixer pellet cyrstallizes, that’s harvesting the true medicine that can begot only with the true mind, not visualizing the cosmos above the head with the monkey mind as in the Healing Dao and Universal Tao. If you read “The Secret of the Golden Flower”, you will get an idea. There are no visualizations, just looking at the emptiness in the dantian, many sensations arise, like in Zen, bliss and light.
Once you get to a certain level, you revolve water wheel (microcosmic orbit), circulate the light. And you keep blending the golden elixer pellet at the three dantians, consecutively with the lower first, middle next, and upper dantian last. You just keep observing the ball.
Overtime, you reach such a deep stillness that the heart can stop beating and the breath stops and fetus breathing (embryonic breathing) occurs. No food, sleep, drink, just one-pointedness with the golden elixer ball. They guide you through the stages when you are at the dantians like when the upper dantian is being worked on, where qi to shen takes place, the ball can move out the top of the head for a short while and you must be careful, and there can be many hallucinations and visions, etc. So stillness is a requirement for the higher levels of alchemy like this.
I think Trunk is onto this, I checked out his site on alchemicaltaoism. That’s the jing to light conversion. Master Nan Huai Chin says that bliss arises from jing, light from qi, and no mind from shen. I think this alchemy supports what he says.
This is how Zhang achieved the golden light body, his body became brilliant golden light and disappeared as legend has it. I am very interested in this kind of alchemy and thinking of getting a retreat house in the mountains for a decade or so one day and practicing this alchemy.
Regards,
Fajinstudy the begins of confucianism, you will find it was the same as tao, only later was it twisted for the emperor and his leaders to control people.
tao was twisted too. On this list people to to pick the best of taoism, wish they would do the same for others traditons too.
Yeah, well said. Zhang believed in absorbing the best from each of the three as do I. What can I say, it’s my lineage!
If you’d like to share, what Zen methods have you learned Bagua? And which ones do you practice now? And have you been practicing Zen before qigong or was qigong first for you?
Thanks,
Fajinhi fajin:
Thanks for sharing the info on Zhang’s methods and WuDan methods, I appreciate it. The way you practice is how I primarly practice, even though i learn what all our doing and do differnt methods to experience it directly, it takes the mystery out of it too.
I started with Tao then Zen, in my teens. For some reason I have an open mind and have always believed true spritual traditions lead to the same place, its just getting past the language barriers as to what things mean.
I have exposure to both Rinzai and Soto methods, I like both, each has its benefits as a process and an alchemy. So i do quiet/empty sitting and some koan work.
If we look at Quanzhen we see they integrated the three great influences in china, they saw the benefits of each and how they are integrated. If an aspect of tao cultivation is about living in the simplicity of life, Chan/zen is a potent expression of it.
As I have always said Chan is inside Tao alchemy, if tao alchemy reveals our true nature it must be inside it. Only the methods differ and for some one is more effective and for others the other is, often which one is more effective changes over time.
Dabbline in Zen was first, then qi gong.
happy to hear you are well, you are lucky to be able to have a beautiful enviornment to support your practice. The Qi out there is alchemical and mixes with your Qi and enhances the refinement process.
bagua
“tao was twisted too. On this list people to to pick the best of taoism, wish they would do the same for others traditons too.”
Shure. I wrote a little thing on this forum about that very topic. It was just not clear in his statement. By other traditions do you mean Buddhism?
As far as it being the same, I would love to hear more on this. I have never seen it presented in this way. Why would you need to rename and repackage the same thing in the same culture? Does it fill in a deficiency that Buddhism or Daoism have?
I mean buddhism, hinduism, etc.
The realization of one’s true nature I beleive is the same, the path or method may differ.
Even in Tao alchemy there are a wide range of methods, some just go to each of the energy centers, lower, middle and upper jiao and just focus there mind there, no mixing of planets, stars, etc. To me these are as legimate.
No method is effective for all people, this is why the variation of methods. If it were than other methods would not have been created even in the same culture and as far as alchemy, it is such a small percent of the population that are into it its foolish to view it as representative of the whole culture. Most are into religous taoism, not in resonance with our alchemy.
I would argue if Taoism was so effective why did buddhism become so popular and the predomiant tradition?
As far as cultural, well I would argue the tao alchemists had little in common with the majority of china people, one reason they went to the mountains to get away from the the masses.
“I would argue if Taoism was so effective why did buddhism become so popular and the predomiant tradition?”
ohh bad argument. You have to look at he goal.
“The realization of one’s true nature I beleive is the same, the path or method may differ.
Even in Tao alchemy there are a wide range of methods, some just go to each of the energy centers, lower, middle and upper jiao and just focus there mind there, no mixing of planets, stars, etc. To me these are as legimate.
No method is effective for all people, this is why the variation of methods. If it were than other methods would not have been created even in the same culture and as far as alchemy, it is such a small percent of the population that are into it its foolish to view it as representative of the whole culture. Most are into religous taoism, not in resonance with our alchemy.”
I understand that from your other posts. I meant it from its philosophical side. It would be interesting to know if people moved away from Daoism do to the fact that it is incomplete with out the internal practice. Leaving those how do not have an interest in the internal aspect little to grasp in the external.
It seems to me Daoism was an evolving thing, people just think what we see today was what it always was.
Yin-Yang and Five Phases it appears was not created by taoists, they were into cosmology, later in the warring periods and Han dynasties they included them. So Daosm was never a complete system including all views, the I Ching changed dramatically in Han, to include confucian, taoist and natural schools, up to this time daoism did not have these things so was not a comprehensive philosophy.
bagua
Thanks Bagua,
You have alot of experience if you started in your teens. I admire your openness to the different spiritual traditions, my cup was not empty when I was talking to you previous to my beginnings in Zen. Dao and Zen ARE one. A truth that hit me not too long ago!
Fajin
Yes to think of Doaism to be stuck and not changing would be silly. Humanity is change.
The question is what was the goal? Why where some things added and used. Confucianism seems to have deen a nasty tool. As it not being a comprehensive philosophy. Did it need to be? Where there not imortals being produced? They did more walking then talking it seems like. Not that there was not elitism in there. There is just a big trend to give the masses laws and philosophy, while the practices are done by the elite. Do you need laws and philosophy when you know your own heart?
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