February 8, 2005 at 2:36 pm #2660
Moving on with the discussion about White Cloud’s level of achievement.
I second the comment that it is not anyone’s place to judge another’s level of achievement. Everyone is now, always has been,always will be immortal; the degree to which we accept that consciousness itself is immortal is known only by the self.
White Cloud may have simply felt he had no serious student on hand, or that his destiny here was complete enough, or the cosmic side of his shen may have called him elsewhere. We can’t know and pointless really to speculate without some comment from him. I’ve tuned into him – the life force holds an imprint of everything – and have my own experience. He’s not my main guide, but he was connected to a group – really its a frequency – that is my guide.
This raises another distinction worth considering here. The function of lineage. White Cloud doesn’t have to reach the highest level of mastery (whatever that is to you) – only enough to allow his lineage to continue working in this plane. That lineage is seeking completion as well – it is still evolving, and needs living humans to do so. That is why there is such a heavy emphasis on every practitioner finding at least one good student.
So everyone involved with healing tao practices is completing the lineage at the same time they are completing themselves. That’s what spiritual lineage is about, vs. blood lineage completion. It is just the way spiritual tribes work.
And of course, at another level of the collective, all spiritual tribes are completing each other’s destiny.
michaelFebruary 8, 2005 at 3:17 pm #2661
m> White Cloud .. pointless really to speculate without some comment from him. >
Nice to hear some common sense on this topic. 😉
m> This raises another distinction worth considering here. The function of lineage. >
*gulp!*, uh-oh, deep topic alert.
I guess i’ve mostly considered celestial (or from whatever vibe-realm-loka) lineage to be “all good and happy”, fully realized, and interact with low-lifes-like-us entirely (or nearly entirely) out of generosity. ..or duty, like sweeping the dust up off of the living room floor. Maybe a simplistic, one-sided, interpretation of the set-up.
In some schools of trainings, and in some classic texts, lineage is almost like the whole thing.. or at least important enough that its considered that none of this works without ‘m. (The correct assessment being that humans don’t generally have direct access to enough high vibe – much less ultimate Reality – in order to refine ourselves. .. harsh truths.)
I’ve had some interaction, but clearly in way over my head (which is perhaps the point and benefit of lineage). Much of the time i find myself working so hard to learn how to change a tire, that my attention is not freed up enough to learn how clouds are formed. My impression is that its (lineage is) a difficult topic to fathom, except perhaps by those who’ve won a seat on the board.
btw, the basic map that i’ve been referring to as “lineage” is not so much “who learned what from who” on the earth, but celestial lineage that supports more earthly refinement activity.
Blending one’s mind-stream with lineage, as a central practice, gets jumbled – often lost – it seems to me, in these times when people are frequently combining practices from multiple sources.
Anything you care to say around the area of lineage, i’d be really interested to hear.
TrunkFebruary 8, 2005 at 9:09 pm #2663
I have been mixing and matching HT practices with other practices. Basically studying up on different teachers and cultivation paths and circling back on HT practices. The main HT practice I have done over the past few years is primordial qigong. It’s interesting to here you speak about lineage since you say the form connects you to a lineage of Immortal Masters. Looking forward to the Atlantean book whenver you get around to writing it:)February 9, 2005 at 1:00 am #2665
here in china, lineage is everything. even to the point that taoist practice by westerners is widely scorned and derided. foreigners simply can’t be as good at it as chinese. if a foreigner mentions a lineage or that a certain teacher was directed to go abroad to teach foreigners, it is viewed with incredulity, at best. this is a point of great pride with the chinese here.
that being said, i must also emphasize that they also have a tremendous appreciation for westerners who demonstrate even a passing knowledge of taoism/qigong/wushu/etc. if you canj use a few buzzwords, they’ll even set you up with a teacher or open a few doors for you. probably a combination of genuine appreciation and to show off their generaosity by getting you a “real teacher.” just by showing a very basic knowledge of qigong, neigong, and the baguas i got an invitation to wudang.
the problem that i have with lineages is that they are too conservative for the modern world. many sects and lineages are always loking to advance their knowledge, but it has to be done by a select few and within prescribed ways. the explosion knowledge and open sharing in te west is a bit terrifying to these people. one reason is that you get a lot of chaff with the wheat. the other reason is that we could possibly steal their show. this is currently a two way street: we’re doing it with chinese culture and they’re doing it with ours.
in the coming age (if we’re not in it already) there will be no masters and heirarchies. spiritual teachings will be more widely accessible to everyone without the need for structures designed to please peoples egos. sure china is opening up to make a fast buck on the global economy. but there’s also a deeper purpose to it. and that is to open all of humanity for the sake of our evolution.
same can be said of events in the middle east. we can look at the war in iraq as a oil driven mass murder (which it may be), but it is also serving a deeper purpose to drag that part of the world out of superstition and the dark ages so that their evolution may continue. i hate to think war is the only way to that end. i just don’t want to lose sight of the deeper bigger picture.February 9, 2005 at 1:56 pm #2667
> the problem that i have with lineages is that they are too conservative for the modern world. many sects and lineages are always loking to advance their knowledge, but it has to be done by a select few and within prescribed ways >
Agreed that there is all sorts of political, and sectarian, issues with political lines & organizations here on earth.
The topic that i was more referred to was the idea (and fact, imo) of groups of highly realized beings that have “ascended” (or had never descended) that provide support to refinement activities on earth.
For instance, the sort of ideas that:
Christ (and perhaps angels, etc) provides support to those to pray to him. Hindus go to the Hindu pantheon of deities, who provide grace and guidance. Also, some earthly lineages say that previous advanced beings within their line have ascended and all hang out together, and provide support for the earthly goings-ons (ex. Siddha lineage at “Siddha loka”).
TrunkFebruary 9, 2005 at 3:18 pm #2669
I believe also that eventually there will be a general acceptance of individual spiritual journeys and a sharing of knowledge that assists in that. I believe it also to be already on its way to development.
I also believe that there are high virbration humans who aid lower vibration humans and also not so human humans (some call them human angels) that aide in development of earth and the human race. I believe also that we all have the capabilities and also the right to become so …. and will be so. And I think maybe that there may be more than a few “masters” who will not be so pleased that they are no longer at the top of the mountain but rather are on the plains with the rest of the human race as earth is brought up to the next dimension. This process will definately weed out those of non-truth for I feel those that are not willing to rub shoulders with every level of human are not true “masters” or “teachers” as we in the west call them. As we proceed, higher vibrations on earth will bring what some of us have sought with perseverance and difficulty – those on earth who so desire will very easily attain. And isn’t this what we all wanted. Well, I guess not all of us, obviously.
Rainbows!February 9, 2005 at 10:11 pm #2671
yeah, i think there are such groups. i’m not sure if they’re lineages or just associations. every culture has a tradition of these, including china. baird t. spalding’s book “life and teachings of the masters of the far east” deals with his encoutner with this remarkable group of beings.
michael winn’s china trip was somewhat reminescent of that book. had some outstanding experiences and met some incredible people. hell, it convinced me to move here…..February 9, 2005 at 10:59 pm #2673
you live in China?
Am planning to travel there this spring/summer. Any suggestions?February 10, 2005 at 4:54 am #2675
This reminds me of a story I think I told on this board quite some time ago.
While living in Germany I used to go to this Tibetan buddhist retreat centre now and then. They would have guests, usually teachers within their (Kadgyu) lineage.
This time the guest was an Austrian zen master, who’d received transmission from a Japanese guy. So there he was with his severe zen students (I remember my German wife at the time, a convinced Kadgyu, mentioning that she thought zen was for little boys who regretted not having joined the millitary…) who’d come with him, giving a lecture to a room full of Kadgyu Tibetan (or rather, German and one Canadian) buddhists.
In the supper break I got to chatting with one of the zen master’s students. It turns out that he was a professional qi gong instructor… So why are you a student of this guy, I asked? (you see, I had asked the zen master during his talk if there were any energy body aspects to his practice–he almost scoffingly said that there weren’t). The student told me that there was something that zen teacher had that he needed, that he didn’t get from his qi gong practice.
Fair enough, I thought, I draw a lot of sustenance from zen too, and from the zen-like aspects of Tibetan buddhism–dzogchen, mahamudra–yet I prefer the daoist approach to energetic theory and practice, in general, and find the notion of “the Dao” slightly more useful than “the buddha nature”. Etcetera.
Anywho, it was an interesting confluence of spiritual tribes helping to complete each other, to be sure.
As long as at some some point one really settles down and gets good at one thing, or one thing steadily after another (of course), I’m all for this kind of cross-pollenation, which in anycase is virtually unavoidable in our spiritual melting pot of an age.February 10, 2005 at 5:35 am #2677
I allow myself to post this here (although already posted on the taobums webpage…). There is this question that “bothers” me, if it is really that good of an idea to mix practices… just in case you have not heard about Falung Gong, here is something Master Li says (Falun: this is some kind of energy body from the master that clears & rectifies the practitioner all the time. these are my words… I might have put it wrong, so please excuse then):
“Q: Can Falun Gong and Tantrism be practiced together?
A: Tantrism also uses a Falun, but it cannot be practiced together with our cultivation method. If you have cultivated Tantrism and its Falun has already been formed, you can continue to cultivate Tantrism because Tantrism is also a righteous law. However, they cannot be practiced at the same time. The Falun of Tantrism cultivates the middle channel and revolves horizontally. Its Falun differs from ours, and has mantras on the wheel. Our Falun is placed vertically on the lower abdomen with the flat side facing out. With the limited space on the lower abdomen, my Falun alone completely covers the area. If one more is placed there, things will be messed up.
Q: Can we practice other Buddha School cultivation systems while practicing Falun Gong? Can we listen to audio tapes that chant Bodhisattva Avalokitesvaras name? Can lay Buddhists who live at home chant scriptures after they have learned Falun Gong? Can we practice other exercises at the same time?
A: I think not. Every method is a way of cultivation. You must cultivate only one way if you truly want to cultivate and not just cure diseases or improve health. This is a serious matter. Cultivating toward higher levels requires one to keep cultivating in one cultivation way. This is an absolute truth. Even the cultivation ways within the Buddha School cannot be mixed. The cultivation we talk about is of a higher level and descended from many, many ages ago. Depending on your feelings will not work. Looking from a different dimension, the transformation process is extremely profound and complex. Just like a precision instrument, if you take off one of its components and replace it with something else, it will immediately break down. The same goes for cultivation; nothing should be mixed into it. It is bound to go wrong if you mix it up. It is the same with all cultivation ways. If you want to cultivate, you must focus on only one way. You will not be able to cultivate at all if you do not. The saying of “gathering the best of every cultivation way” is only applicable to the level of curing diseases and improving health. It will not bring you to a higher level.”
further he states:
“1. Cultivation of a Falun; No Cultivation or Formation of Dan.
The Falun possesses the same nature as the universe and is an intelligent, rotating entity made of high-energy matter. The Falun rotates constantly in the practitioners lower abdomen and continuously collects energy from the universe, transforming and converting it into gong. So practicing cultivation in Falun Dafa can increase practitioners gong and allow them to reach the Unlocking of Gong (kaigong) state unusually quickly. Even those people who have cultivated for over a thousand years have wanted to obtain this Falun but could not. At present, all the practices popular in our society cultivate dan and form dan. They are called dan-method qigong. It is very difficult for practitioners of dan-method qigong practices to achieve the Unlocking of Gong and Enlightenment in this lifetime.”February 10, 2005 at 9:42 am #2679
Okay, so you will have to bear with me on this one but Falun Gong, I am sorry but when I am near one of the practictioners it makes my skin crawl. I do apologize if I offend anyone from falun gong but this is my truthful experience. I guess if any human would like to give up “themself” for the purpose of an “unknown” then it is truthfully up to them. When one has an entitiy placed inside them then when one thinks of self – who then are we? And if that entity then resides in us giving us “knowledge?” – whose knowledge, under what laws, under what dimension, and for what intention? Those are things I think about. And to me I would rather cry a thousand rivers then have someone come to me and give me an “enlightenment”. For truly whose enlightenment is it then? Truly not mine for I never cleared my “attic”, nor felt the process nor worked for it. This master of Falun Gong is that in its word a MASTER of all his students. Not teacher. This is the difference and I think that we in the west get really confused with this idea. And so the eastern teachers come here and we start calling them masters and pretty soon that is what they literally become MASTERS and we are the SLAVES. Have you ever really truly looked in the eyes of a FALUNG GONG practitioner? Whose soul do you see there. In fact, is there a soul at all? Like I said, I go near those people and my skin literally wants to crawl off my body. And seeing as how I am an INDIGO adult, well I have a tendency to trust those instincts. For me truth is a major player and I do not see truth there. Now everyone has their choice in what to practise, that is true, but you know, it seems that everyone just lets the FALUN GONG be and doesn’t really want to say anything on the down side. Maybe it is time people really did say something. I mean when you think of qigong and energy work, one should relate that to peace, and compassion and balance and joy and maybe sometimes hard work and perseverance. I don’t know but everytime I see a Falun Gong rally here in Canada they have political posters all over the place speaking of political persecution. So what are the teaching? What is political persecution or qigong. Well qiogng is energy work and political persecution does raise an energy just not a positive one and have you ever thought that perhaps that is exactly what FALUN GONG wants. A different kind of energy raised. Maybe not the right one. Quite a sneaky way to do it I must say but it does work doesn’t it. One practices FALUN GONG. What do you think of as soon as I say FALUN GONG. Do you think of a peaceful stream with flowers by the side. Or do you think of a riot in CHINA? See this is also qigong but not one that us westerners are quite awake to. Qigong is energy work. Well they do that. But I would really question their intention and if their intention is truly to raise the positive consciouseness of the human race, then why do they relate themselves to political persecution, why is a political placement so important to them. Because of their practices other qigong in CHINA suffers because the Chinese government doesn’t like to trust people with power because when it let a few qigong masters have some power, well look what happened. With over 5 billion people the Chinese government cannot afford to have qigong masters with huge egos, connections to outside entities, and control over hundreds of thousands of people, taking away even their freedom of thought and event their right to their own karma. So Falun Gong to me is very smart. They create for themselves even more power because now in the west they are seen as these poor persecuted people and the other qigong masters are no longer able to practise their healing and teachings. Wow, what a smart way to gain power. Now if this master of Falun Gong were true, he would share everything with all masters for the good of all mankind. NOT just HIS people. Did you know that everytime a master of qigong takes a student his power raises. Did you know that. Perhaps people here should know that. Why is that. Because the qigong master is then the go between the higher beings and yourself. So he becomes like a generator and the more energy passes thru that generator or diffuser, well the stronger it becomes. That is okay if you have a very stable master, but if you have one who has never dealt with his ego you are in for a few problems – hence, I believe – Falun Gong. I have had transmission tried on me twice. Each time I would not accept. WHY? Because I did not trust the master’s intent and morals. And really, why should I? We are always being tested to see if we are good enough to study with a “master” but truly, truly, truly we ahve a right to test them also. If they don’t fit into our morals, our integrity, our ethics … then they don’t fit. And you won’t be able to accept them. This is truth. Your spirit will just kick them right out. That is how it works. You see it is almost a brainwashing technique, because masters will make you feel good to be near them. So you always want to be near them, give them lots. Pretty soon you give them YOU. Master becomes more powerful. Master becomes what he thinks is GOD. Kind of like the Jehovah Witnesses who say that to get to heaven you have to get, what is it 122,000 people to become Jehovah Witnesses or whatever. My point is and I would ilke all to think on this. If these Masters have been able to connect to the truth of the Universe, connect to the true Creator and have received the “power and enlightenment” then why can’t YOU or I. I say that we all can and have the right to and right now the influx of Chinese qigong masters is a power and money scheme that I as a westerner are very aware of. Too many secrets, too much giving away of ones inner self, too much of “things” put in our psyche and bodies without true explanation. I mean think of it, some guy comes along, says I am going to put this thing in you, it will operate you and you will feel me all the time. Like …. Yeah ….. sure buddy …. I want that thing in me. DUH! Just lately I have been practising my qigong and meditation. My third eye saw a crystal deposited just below my heart. But you know what. I grew that crystal myself with the energy I produced and with the people I love around me and know. And with the guides I trust. Not by some unknown person who has received some unknown “thing” from some unknown “entity” who seems to thinkhe wants to
be the next ruler of the world. And by what was previously said here doesn’t like holy words and holy admiration and practices. THINK ABOUT IT. We do all have choices but lets not sit on our laurels and be DUMMIES.February 10, 2005 at 10:22 am #2681
Thankx for your input on it. I have come across Falun Gong in the past and IT IS FREE. One can download the practice books for free and the training videos. I have my own reaons for not continueing on that way… the reason I brought up the subject is because of the topic “lineages”. Why, if not due to some incompatibilities between “their processes” do there have to be lineages then? And I felt that Mr. Li addresses that in a way I would be intrigued to know more about. It really is an important question in how far it is possible to mix practices without doing damage to oneself and if by following that way one might not arrive at a worse place than before starting.
Regarding the political activities of Falun Gong practitioners there are two things to say.
first: They do not follow their Masters advice to keep out of politics if one is a practitioner.
second: those that try to do something about the situation in China are doing this to help other practitioners who are prosecuted.
Regarding them giving themselves to the master and not being themselves anymore the theory looks different:
In order for that Falun to work they have to continuously improve THEMselves. They have to pratice: virtue, letting go of clinging etc. etc. etc.
by doing this this Falun is said to work for them…
I can not explain everything I read, heard and talked about. I do have my own problems with all of this, but I just wanted to share a different point of view… besides my original intent.
HarryFebruary 10, 2005 at 11:24 am #2683
One more thing. Are you also aware of the brainwashing techniques. One should be aware of these things when practise and joining of anything. Usually what happens is the “master” makes the student feel inadequate, inadequate to handle their spiritual, emotional and physical affairs. Sometimes overtraining so that the students are in a weakened state. Then he gets them to trust in him and his ways. Support his cause. I know of even taiji teachers who use these techniques to get their subservients to “teach” for them and look after their studios while they are off globetrotting and gaining more knowledge and power. Have had this happen to me personally. What these teachers do not foster are individuality, self cultivation, self belief and inner strength. For it is these things that will take away the ability to be brainwashed. You can look it up onthe internet if you like. What is the best way to stave off any brainwash techniques. A strong disposition. A strong “I AM”. A strong belief in who and what you are.
Well, as you can see this topic is a “HOT” one for me. And basically I have not said too much but really, I think people should be aware of both the ups and downs of energy work out there. Just be sure of who you are with. Trust in yourself and YOUR heart.
Rainbows!February 10, 2005 at 11:30 am #2685
This is all fair enough. Opinions are good. But all that is said and done…. the falun dafa make my skin crawl. My sensors just go all wierd when I am around them. So no matter what words are spread whereever I will go with my inner insinct. And I won’t touch them with a 500′ pole. Just my opinion. And I have had a teacher from China who was in China at the time of a “supposed” infarction and arrest. The picture here seemed to show a big kufuffle and riot. However his sight of it, well just a bust with two people on it who refused to move and the police were removing them. So…. just be aware of propoganda on both sides of hte coin. Don’t always believe what you see, nor hear. As for money, well sure everything is free, He can afford it now can’t he? Still, I have still heard stories of people selling their houses and giving the money as donation. So well there goes the stories again.
Like I said. I don’t like the feel of it and in now way will I condone it. I just stay away. And being in North America we do have free speech and I will practise that right along with everyone else.
Rainbows!February 10, 2005 at 1:54 pm #2687
>Usually what happens is the “master” makes the student feel inadequate, inadequate to handle their spiritual, emotional and physical affairs. Sometimes overtraining so that the students are in a weakened state. Then he gets them to trust in him and his ways.< I very much know what you are talking about. This must happen in such a "system" and with regard to such topics as enlightenment or not, whether it being good or bad intention. Someone who knows something tells people that don't know... that's the problem. Those that don't know have to trust... nevertheless. I had a problem with this and went further. but with regard to the "I AM" aspect: this is far away from the thought of becoming one with the Tao, isn'T it? Harry
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