April 22, 2010 at 9:14 am #33994
Steven and all, my ‘issue’ with your postings was not completely dissolved and last night I figured out the other deeper reason for my strong reaction on your drugs vs. meditation postings.
My shadows with my father was one reason as posted.
But deeper down there was a bigger trigger. It kept me awake till 6am to feel into it.
I’ll keep it simple, without any details as it may distract from the issue meditation vs drugs, and becoming a too long posting.
The claim: meditation is GOOD and drugs is BAD. My own experience with spirituality was not ALL GOOD. The fact is that three major meditation/spiritual hits brought me at the border of insanity, without the use of any drugs.
First was about 16 years ago, during one of the bodywork classes I took, using bone marrow information. I had a major and very bad out of my body experience. My energy body was not able to come back into my physical body, for 3 days I was like a zombie, until my inner voice ordered me to go to a nearby old church. No clue what to do there I walked in during mess, sat down in the back away from people, waited clueless, when the mess was finished I felt no difference. Feeling desperate I walked on the right side of the pilars towards the altar, looked at the altar briefly and walked back in the middle aisle towards the door. Back home I burst out in tears as I felt my energybody was still way outthere and I could not get it back.
Sitting there sad and desperate for a couple of hours I suddenly felt my energybody joining my body again. The leylines running through the church had been pulling my energybody back into my physical body.
My bodywork teacher ordered me to look for Healing Tao classes and so this first major event directed me towards HT. Yet it took almost a full year to recover from the loss of my energybody. It was a terrifying experience to feel so empty/detached/lost – in a bad unintegrated way, it felt like I was lost in my own dark inner dungeons, the guiding light of my energybody was no longer present, I walked a zombie life.
I kept doing bodywork classes combined with HT, to make me stronger and to release old patterns and emotional blockages.
About 13 years ago I sat in a meditation with Michael W. being totally deep and open I had an encounter with another being. I talked about that on the forum before and don’t like to talk about it too much. In short, that wiped away my whole context of ‘reality’. That took 9 months of recovery and some years of digesting. I had no context to deal with it, the whole reality context was gone, I thought I lost my mind. The only guidance I had through it all were emails with Michael.
It took years gathering all the pieces back together to make a workable reality frame for myself.
Then about 10/11 years ago taking a class with Li Feng at Dao Mountain, again in deep and open meditation, another encounter happened, not one but two following each other, my body/mind and soul were stretched to the extreme to try to keep my sanity – where the 13 years ago one was minddazzling for me, this one was even more disturbing. This encounter took many years to digest, and I am now 10 years later at peace with it, yet still finding my way with some aspects of it, as it is a neverending process. If the first one took me on the edge of insanity, I think this one took me at some points over it. My build in intelligence kept me from really becoming a sort of lunatic in the dessert.
Anyways this very shortened story to try to make my point that meditation is not all good vs. drugs being all bad ( as a spiritual tool). They both can hold deep wisdom yet also unknown dangers.
In my opinion both paths need exactly the same three things:
Preparation, guidance and completion!
Without those three aspects both meditation and drug use as a spiritual tool!, can be just plane dangerous.
From my own experiences I KNOW that these three things are necessary and crucial for true development of the human body, mind and soul.
My personal meditation trips were the worst experiences in my life. They transformed into deep wisdom but only, and just only, because of very hard inner work, building myself up brick by brick, stretching my mind as far as I possibly could without losing it and transformed it into a day-to-day presence and awareness.
I do thank Michael for the emails that kept me from completely losing it.
WendyApril 22, 2010 at 11:09 am #33995
Is it something you cold have done differently in your life or in your
practise, that could have saved you from those experiences, or at least could
have made them less dangerous. What do you think?
SDApril 22, 2010 at 12:14 pm #33997
What Wendy again relates is what I would call initiation or certain steps along the process anyway. But these things belong what maybe could be called open secrets.
But though I am aware that one can try to share what one has experienced, it is very difficult.
From the practical point of you R. Steiner is not so interesting (eurythmy, medicine, schools etc), but as an initiate he has had in my opinion has something interesting to say.
Could Wendy’s experience has something to do with so called Guardian of the Threshold?
Steiner has been several times mentioned on this forum with some kind of mild admiration, but also it has been stated that why in the world he was so attracted by Christianity.
He himself has said that he saw as his personal lifetask to introduce karma and reincarnation into Christianity.
Interesting is that in some of his lecture series he gives impression that he has actually been confronting experiences which lead to qigong or yoga type of practice, but he seemingly never really eandeavored to try to put them really seriously in to practice. Good example is what he describes in ‘Theosophy of the Rosicrucians’ (or whatever it is called in English). What he describes is nothing else than various levels of Iron Shirt qigong. Also good material (though lacking details) is his ‘True and False Path in Spiritual Investigation’ which deals how to combine spiritual practice with drug use. Surprisingly enough he even tells spiritual effects of cocaine etc. This is also seem to be the place from where Mantak Chia took some anthroposophical theory to his ‘Taoist Astral Healing.’
Now what Swedich Dragon asked?
Practicing qigong or yoga is devilish. If somebody cannot manage with the ‘Hounds of the Barrier’ (term from the Emerald Tablets of Thoth the Atlantean and Anton LaVey’s Satanic Rituals) it’s better to stay away from serious practice.
Ps. I took my forum name from William Peter Blatty’s Exorcist, because of the predatory nature of spiritual quest, to accept and to acknowledge the situation.April 22, 2010 at 4:36 pm #33999
>>>my ‘issue’ with your postings was not completely dissolved
>>>It kept me awake till 6am to feel into it.
My apologies if I either directly or indirectly triggered to you
into a place of uncomfortability (or at least sleep loss!!!).
Also, I feel very fortunate to be able to hear your resulting story.
>>>First was about 16 years ago, during one of the
>>>bodywork classes I took, using bone marrow information.
>>>I had a major and very bad out of my body experience.
Out of curiosity, what practices were you doing in that course
that precipitated this? Also, had you done any self-work
prior to that coursework (meaning was there anything that
could have foreshadowed the event) I.E. can you elaborate
on circumstances leading up to that visit and/or what were
the “practices” done in that visit?
>>>My bodywork teacher ordered me to look for Healing Tao
>>>classes and so this first major event directed me towards HT.
That was fortuitous. Almost a universal calling?
>>>Yet it took almost a full year to recover from the loss
>>>of my energybody. It was a terrifying experience to feel
>>>so empty/detached/lost – in a bad unintegrated way,
>>>it felt like I was lost in my own dark inner dungeons,
>>>the guiding light of my energybody was no longer present,
>>>I walked a zombie life.
Wow! That must have been really challenging for you.
I can understand how that would have been traumatizing.
>>>About 13 years ago I sat in a meditation with Michael W.
>>>being totally deep and open I had an encounter with
>>>another being. I talked about that on the forum before
>>>and don’t like to talk about it too much.
That’s understandable. Others sometimes can’t identify
or hold an authentic space to be a sufficient ground for the
story to be told. Some such things can be very intimate
and need to be held with a lot of compassion.
>>>Then about 10/11 years ago taking a class with Li Feng
>>>at Dao Mountain, again in deep and open meditation,
>>>another encounter happened, not one but two following
>>>each other, my body/mind and soul were stretched to the
>>>extreme to try to keep my sanity – where the 13 years ago
>>>one was minddazzling for me, this one was even more disturbing.
>>>This encounter took many years to digest, and I am now 10 years
>>>later at peace with it, yet still finding my way with some
>>>aspects of it, as it is a neverending process. If the first
>>>one took me on the edge of insanity, I think this one took
>>>me at some points over it. My build in intelligence kept me
>>>from really becoming a sort of lunatic in the dessert.
Would you be willing to share what happened in
this third event? If it is too disturbing or too personal,
then silence here is fine and understandable.
>>>Anyways this very shortened story to try to make my
>>>point that meditation is not all good vs. drugs
>>>being all bad ( as a spiritual tool). They both
>>>can hold deep wisdom yet also unknown dangers.
>>>In my opinion both paths need exactly the same three things:
>>>Preparation, guidance and completion!
>>>Without those three aspects both meditation
>>>and drug use as a spiritual tool!, can be
>>>just plane dangerous.
>>>From my own experiences I KNOW that these three things
>>>are necessary and crucial for true development
>>>of the human body, mind and soul.
Yes, any foray into the unknown carries some risk–sort of
by definition of traveling into the unknown.
There are certainly some things that I think can be
done when doing qigong/meditation/alchemy explorations
that can help make the process safer, some of which you’ve
mentioned yourself. But that doesn’t necessary eliminate
the possibility of the unexpected . . . as you illustrated
with your sharings.
>>>My personal meditation trips were the worst experiences in my life.
I’m very sorry to hear that.
I can feel, though, that through the intense difficulties
of these experiences you’ve become a much stronger person,
and a beacon to help guide others.
Thank you for sharing your story.
StevenApril 22, 2010 at 5:16 pm #34001
It will be always the big question if those experiences were somehow necessary for some reason.
Looking back I gained a lot of wisdom from it, it strengthened me. So the end result is positive.
I learned to embrace it as part of the adepts walk through the maze.
But there are at this point two things that come to me when you ask this question:
Following the three necessary steps I figured out that are needed to deal with it in a more balanced way than I did, step 1 was the crucial ‘mistake’.
1. My preparation was absolutely lousy: I had bad grounding, my boundaries were too weak or I should say my energybody was too open and too expanded (coming from a childhood were I monitored the moods of my parents to protect myself)and I had a lack of yang energy (coming from a father with severe childhood problems who was not able to be present emotionally).
I was in no way prepared for what could happen. With some other experience not mentioned in my posting, I called it stepping into space without a pressure suit, I just jumped into it. Like a child learning that fire is hot by burning its fingers, I learned that expanding, opening and allowing needs to be counterbalanced by grounding and a healthy sense of boundaries. I learned the hard way.
2. Another gap I found that could have helped me to process the experiences better was the follow up or closure. I had absolutely no context, no map, no frame work, other than Michaels emails, I had nobody to talk with, and those very few I very carefully shared some aspects of it with, they either could not understand it (of course) or they denied the whole experience as some identity crisis or I sensed jealousy (that from my HT teacher in my country). I learned very fast that talking about it was not a good choice. Yet I became very isolated and that is why it took so long to integrate it. I had a life to live, three young children to take care of, I had to forget and move on, but of course what you suppress comes back multiplied. I was forced to face it and deal with it. So I did in silence.
With some more context, with some more help, I could have managed it better but I isolated myself because there was nobody to turn to nearby. A turning point was that I was not able to talk as me, that was the point I realized I had lost contact with ‘me’. I was part of other realities, I was all that, no boundaries to protect my human me.
I felt like a landing platform where other realities landed and took off without my permission.
I realized I had to claim myself back, bit by bit I gathered my pieces back together, so many years later as an integrated person.April 22, 2010 at 5:45 pm #34003
I took a 4 year course to become a Naturopath (after being a nurse for years), yet, the out of my body one was caused by a course I took seperate from that. It works on the information stored into the bone structure and bone marrow (still one of my favorite techniques I apply on clients).
I had no previous grounding practice.
After that experience I started HT and ended the Naturopath school after the first 2 years. The experience totally changed my point of view and I was dedicated to HT since then.
I suppose you refer to the ‘visit’ while I was already into HT. If I remember well I think it was Advanced Fusion or maybe Lesser Kan and Li with Michael.
I think it is unwise to share that on an open forum. I still don’t feel enough comfort to
>>>My personal meditation trips were the worst experiences in my life. >>>
Maybe I should change that, they were the most… stretching experiences, so yes for some parts of me they were horrible, for other parts they were… adventure in complete unknown realitiesApril 22, 2010 at 5:54 pm #34005April 22, 2010 at 9:44 pm #34007
Thanks for sharing your retrospective on these powerful experiences.
I recall that you were exposed to grounding practices prior to those two retreats that I witnessed your “immersion” in foreign energies. You related to me that you had difficulty absorbing or practicing them effectively.
To make a fine distinction here, I think the issue was not so much “grounding into the earth” as it was a BOUNDARY issue. You were totally porous, yin-absorbing whatever you encountered.
So some higher energies decided to take advantage of your openness. Which of course forced you to define who you were, and create some boundaries that were much bigger than your old boundaries by the time you finally got to settle comfortably into them.
Does that distinction make any sense to you?
ps. will be travelling next three days and possibly unable to reply. A wedding in Louisiana. Warm up for yours?April 23, 2010 at 2:51 am #34009
>>>I took a 4 year course to become a Naturopath
>>>(after being a nurse for years), yet, the out of my body
>>>one was caused by a course I took seperate from that.
>>>It works on the information stored into the bone structure
>>>and bone marrow (still one of my favorite
>>>techniques I apply on clients).
Yeah, I guess my question was how “it works”. Was it a
type of meditation, or bone beating, or massage, or physical
exercise? I was sort of curious as to how the technique
was getting into the bone marrow. We do bone stuff in the HT,
but you mentioned it was a course you took before being
directed to the HT.
>>>I had no previous grounding practice.
>>>After that experience I started HT and ended the
>>>Naturopath school after the first 2 years.
>>>The experience totally changed my point of view
>>>and I was dedicated to HT since then.
I bet. It sounds like you got a little bit of a “baptism by fire”,
given your surprise strong reaction you had. Intense.
>>>I suppose you refer to the ‘visit’ while I was already into HT.
>>>If I remember well I think it was Advanced Fusion or
>>>maybe Lesser Kan and Li with Michael.
I can believe that. I think that stuff triggers a lot of
people. The LKL course should have a warning in front of
it, namely “Warning: As a result of this course,
the shift is going to hit the fan”
>>>I think it is unwise to share that on an open forum.
>>>I still don’t feel enough comfort to
I understand and respect that.
StevenApril 23, 2010 at 7:29 am #34011
I had been doing repeatedly basic, fusion and bone marrow courses AND took intense bodywork classes and treatments to help me ground as I understood that was a problem for me.
YET I was not prepared for the amount of energy that ran through my body during the events, high voltage through wires that were hardly prepared for it (or maybe that was the whole purpose of it, who will say, I will never know, because I did NOT lose my mind, I worked it through for years after but I managed it, and made me much stronger and aware).
Yes boundaries is a very interesting topic, because how much do we allow, how much do we stretch, for it to be healthy. My wiring system was not well prepared and the stretching of it came very unexpected (but how can you be prepared for something like that).
I do have wounds from it though, invasions like that are not without scars.
One of it is, that I don’t allow myself anymore to go so deep into meditations, I keep ‘an eye’ on how deep I sink in. I build a guardian system that monitors the coming and going of energies and keeps a strong eye of feeling my center. Doing so I can stretch out as far AS I WANT, yet I am not losing the inner ground.
But I do understand that there is fear underneath, and that is my next task to deal with.
A very important aspect of the acceptance and ‘healing’ of all that is my relationship with Chris (Voice). I can talk and share with him about it all as it is talking about the breakfast we will have. It is part of our life together, it is part of our relationship. He says it is BECAUSE of it that we found each other.
Without him I would still feel isolated. I had been building a fortress to keep everything in place and safe. He released me out of my cave. Since being released, I am trying to find a new balance, a bit more in the open and keeping more options open.April 25, 2010 at 2:15 am #34013
(The definition of a learner’s union is 🙂 the stages of completion taken from rising in pure illusory body-in dependence on the winds that serve as the mount of the actual clear light of the fourth stage serving as its substantial cause and the mind of clear light serving as its cooperative condition, this arising being simultaneous with slight movement of the winds from actual clear light of the fourth stage-up through the actual clear light at the end of learning.
-NGA-WANG-BEL-DEN, Illumination of the Texts of Tantra, Presentation of the Grounds and Paths of the Four Great Secret Tantra Sets
Following Formula 5 create the energy body this time using the greatly enchanced pearl. Once the body is formed and if you decide to continue, proceed to Formula 8.
-MANTAK CHIA, Fusion of the Five Elements
Kumbhaka means ‘breath retention’, either after inhalation (antar kumbhaka) or after exhalation (bahir kumbhaka), which is deliberately holding the breath, of kevala kumbhaka, where the breath becomes suspended automatically. Kumbhaka may also refer to suspension of the breath at any stage of the respiratory cycle. It’s a part of all pranayama practices, in fact Patanjali described pranayama as being kumbhaka in the second chapter of his Yoga Sutras. The aim of all pranayama practices is to achieve kevala kumbhaka which is equivalent to state of samadhi.
-SWAMI NIRANJANANDA SARASWATI, Prana Pranayama Prana Vidya
Breath control is important with respect to the aiming process. If the sniper breathes while trying to aim, the rise and fall of his chest causes the rifle to move. He must, therefore, accomplish sight alignment during breathing. To do this , he first inhales then exhales normally and stops at the moment of natural respiratory pause.
-FM 23-10, Ch.3 Markmanship, 3-3
Now pay witness to Sonny’s burning, warming the damp and rotten seed , warming the damp and rotten seed that blooms into the DEMON FLOWER, now both fire and flowers consume me, flame on flame on.
-THE BIRTHDAY PARTY, Sonny’s BurningApril 25, 2010 at 4:16 am #34015
Yet I was not prepared for the amount of energy that ran through my body during the events, high voltage through wires that were hardly prepared for it (or maybe that was the whole purpose of it, who will say it, because i did NOT lose my mind, I worked it through for years after but I managed it, and made me much stronger and aware)
Hands up, who wants to die…evil heat is running through me, through me…evil heat, baby, it consumes me…
-THE BIRTHDAY PARTY, Sonny’s Burning
Friedrich Bayer has discovered , among others, aspirin, heroin, prontosil, ciprofloxacin, levitra, polyurethane, polycarbonate, suramin, parathion, and propour.
-WIKIPEDIA on Friedrich Bayer, German pharmacist & businessman
I hope it’s still okey-dokey to make small comment what Wendy relates.
Or actually make a question for the present moment.
Wendy told about what she though being weakness in her wiring system. I have impression that musculoskeletal system being in excellent health or at least healthy enough, works very much for the wiring, both gross and subtle.
Surprise turning into fear, could probably also create problems.
Having backround in nursing, studying naturopathy, step-by-step absorbing many good things from different directions… and also integrating to one’s practice techniques from hatha yoga … it’s quite complicated, but I actually wanted to ask might it not be somehow possible that breathing is not enough worked out (!?).
In the sense of pranayama, I mean.
I understood, when pressure suit was mentioned, that it is a metaphor. Certain kind of chanting together with right kind of visualizations could help for the infested cognitive faculty.
But most important for immediate recovery, in my opinion is breathing. Not losing one’s mind, but turning it into right kind of vessel through becoming BABA NAM KEVALAM.
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