December 12, 2005 at 3:46 pm #9331
Hello: I have been doing a form of chi gung taught by a Chinese master now residing in the United States on and off (mostly on for last year and a half) for several years now. I have found this method difficult to pursue, and haven’t been able to generate a lot of noticeable results from it. I have many health problems and have taken Chinese herbs to great effect for six months now (not cured but greatly improved from the herbs). Seven weeks ago I succumbed to temptation and took a videotape of Falun Gong exercises out of the library. Lo and behold the results were quick and incredible: greatly improved mood, much greater energy, periods of feeling absolutely amazing, a seeming greater response to the herbs I’m taking, and also some bizarre “cleansing” symptoms. Now I find myself going “hyper” on my thyroid medication which I have used for many years–so something is changing greatly and must be adjusted by my doctor. Anyway, the “cleansing” symptoms made me seek out some other falun gong practitioners for help/advice, but oh my goodness how horrifying they were, along with the book that accompanies the exercises. Now I have a dilemma: Do I continue the exercises which are benefiting me so much when I am so disturbed by the strange, controlling, seemingly “fundamentalist” religious side of the practice, and a bit fearful of the energetic connection to the “master”? I am not really well versed in chi gung, really sought it out very ignorantly to help me with health problems and perhaps haven’t been as diligent with the other chi gung as I could have been. I can’t ask the chi gung master about this of course, as he will freak out (he’s lost students in the past to falun gong). I’m looking for reactions from others who practice, though not sure what I’ll end up doing. Thanks.December 12, 2005 at 6:16 pm #9332
These postures that Li HongZhi has taught are found in other schools of thought. I met a Chinese teacher that allegedly knew of him prior to Falun Gong and it came from a Xiou Lian (Spiritual Purification) Chan Mi Buddhist practice. The postures are ok and you don’t have to feel like you owe them anything except “Thank You for Sharing” to them.
I have practiced these styles of meditative style sitting and standing postures for years and have seen many of the same types of postures in other schools of thought. Don’t worry so much about the name “Tagged” to the system if it works for you, simply use it. Many teachers or Masters like controlling their students you won’t find control freaks within Universal or Healing Tao. Mike has many good sound rooting practices I feel are good for anyone. Fundamentals 1-4 are a great place to start. Maybe seek a Healing Tao group, Universal tao Group or a local Qigong mediation practice that will fullfill a non-attached relationship. Hope this helps goodluck,
SnowlionDecember 13, 2005 at 1:36 am #9334
I think not all Falun Gong practitioners are as you describe… but there sure are many… as Snowlion I would not worry about practicing the forms… if they do you good they do you good and have their own right… further I’D say: leave a QiGong master that tends to freak out so easily… no stable energy there…December 13, 2005 at 12:13 pm #9336
Interesting–thanks for both of your responses. I have actually decided to stop the practice for now, partly because in addition to the positive changes, there are problematic detoxifying symptoms, and without help or guidance I can’t feel sure that I’m not doing myself harm. Also, I can’t get past the rather threatening tone (of the books) toward people who only do the exercises. Though I don’t see myself as superstitious, I have had experiences with chi that suggest he does indeed have an energetic connection to those who do the exercises, and I don’t feel comfortable. The other form of chi gung I do works so slowly and is so frustrating to my western “results now” sensibility. I agree that the other qigong master is problematic in some ways, but he is sort of the only game in town if you want to study with a master, and he is not evil, which at this point is the way I see falun gong (it’s just how it feels to me; the practitioners themselves did not seem evil at all, but strangely willing to be used for some other purpose, and Li’s taking advantage of them, especially those in China who are in grave danger, seems evil to me). However, as far as the other qigong goes, I think I’d do better with a system that was less complex and less “macho” (from my perspective) than that–it involves fasting, and suggests that the only way to really progress is to fast several times a year, and I have found that absolutely BRUTAL (did it twice). Can you suggest a qigong that is valid to do on my own, safe, with enough quick results to keep a westerner going? You mention something in one of the posts, but I’m not sure where to start with it.December 13, 2005 at 12:16 pm #9338
No message here.December 13, 2005 at 12:19 pm #9340
I have a question about stretching in chi gong. The other qi gong I do does NOT involve stretching at all, mainly meditations and standing postures involving moving chi with the mind to open passages and circuits. Also there are breathing exercises, and at the advanced level, some that are a bit challenging to the muscles. However Falun Gong has a key move called “Buddha showing a thousand hands” which supposedly “opens up the channels” and involves stretching. Other qigongs i’ve seen also incorporate this and it seems important. Somehow I feel it may be a missing link for me, someone who suffers from a lot of stagnation. Any thoughts on this? Clearly I don’t know a whole lot about the mechanics of qi gong.December 13, 2005 at 1:05 pm #9342
I only know of the falun gong from what I have heard and I also know that if I am near a practitioner my skin crawls, it literaly wants to crawl off and I just get the creeps. In fact I cannot stand near them for long, it is a very strange feeling and I find most of them to be very “airheaded” with an almost waxy appearance. I will go to the others side of the street to avoid them.
I have been told that the founder of falun gong deposits an energetic symbol in the dantian of his practitioners. And that the practitioners are connected to him and any of whatever he is hooked up to. And to me if it doesn’t feel good to you then don’t do it. And in my experience no qigong master is better than a qigong master with issues. Because really a qigong master cannot do what he is supposed to do if you do not connect heart to heart. Not trusting your qigong master but yet studying with him is only opening up opportunities for major issues forming. I would advise you not to go there.
I have never studied with Michael Winn and when I did meet him a couple of years ago, he was busy with his own group of people. I do not think I fit into his criteria of student nor co-practitioners. However out of the many people I have met I would recommend him as a teacher in that he appears to be grounding, not many hidden secrets, willing to share, good natured and good willed. His advice on this forum has always been very balanced and informative.
For my own practice, I have really found that it has changed as I have changed. I used to practice the 13 form Primordial Hunyuan Qigong form from Master Feng Zhiqiang. It was highly effective and brought out my natural abilities of knowing. Strengthed very well as a neidan does. I do revert to it and to taiji ruler as a basis. However I have learned that the most important things to do with energy work is to
1. Protect the space you are practicing in by bringing in white light. And surrounding your area with it. Gold can be used as in the Buddhist mantras also. Or even the 4 protectors as in Chinese philosophy.
2. Clearing yourself and grounding to the center of the earth. (different techniques to this, just do what suits you best, eg. melting white light thru your body and channels to the earth, white mist or whatever).
Then, you can practise whatever resounds to you. Prayer is good to connect you strongly to the divine. Some of the mantras and mudras even found in this forum are very nice.
Ask and you shall receive. Ask for teachings with grace and wisdoma nd they will come to you. I asked for mine to come in physical form as it would get corrupted by other energy as I received them in meditation or in “messages”. And now I do. In books or even on this forum. Or in magazines. And also within self. Just learn to listen and to discern from the crap in your mind and what is truth in your heart. That is the hard part. That is where the divine light and truth come into play. That is very good at clearing the crud out.
Fasting is extremely good for your body. Coming off the fast is just as important and what you eat afterwards is even more important. Iwas on the lemon cleanse diet. Nothing but maple syrup, water, lemonade for 40 days. No cheating. I did it no problem. However I came off it way too fast and it has taken 10 months to bring my body back round. So read up on any fasting very well before starting. The trick to fasting – ask spirit to lead you. That makes it so much easier. It was a very profound time for me. Unfortunately having to live in reality is a hard knock.
Anyways, don’t look for your teacher. I have done that and believe me it stinks. What you get won’t be half as good as if you just let nature take its course. Believe me. Follow Michael’s advice in keeping a strong “I AM” and don’t let anyone take that from you. Not Falun Gong nor any other practise. And if they insist then leave.December 13, 2005 at 5:13 pm #9344
m> involves stretching. Other qigongs i’ve seen also incorporate this and it seems important. Somehow I feel it may be a missing link for me, someone who suffers from a lot of stagnation. >
I’ve considered that some qigong systems do not have stretching in them because stretching is covered so thoroughly in other systems (ex. hatha yoga, or common non-esoteric systems of stretching).
Also, body-types vary widely. Some bodies tend to be “too loose” and so would need very little stretching.
My body type (stocky) tends towards stagnation and – though not always easy nor even really pleasant – I find it to be very important for me, along with various other approaches for keeping things flowing smoothly.
TrunkDecember 13, 2005 at 5:36 pm #9346
Thanks, Rainbowbear. There was a time when I wouldn’t have understood what you’re telling me, but I am coming to a new place in my life and, to tell you the truth, falun gong has helped me get there. I can’t go on with it, though, and perhaps not with the other qigong either (though I will for the time being, as it feels very peaceful now and it is helping me cleanse the f.g. energy out of my body). Fasting for me was short, supervised by the qigong master, and very hard. I’m very “deficient” in Chinese medicine terms, and many others in the class who seem to love the fasting seem to be coming off more of an “excess.” I wonder whether that could be the difference, or maybe i’m just rationalizing, but after each fast I got new problems that stayed, and I don’t want that to happen, so I’m going to avoid it for the time being. I think there are a few other qigong options if I don’t want to practice completely by myself, and I’ll seek them out. Thanks. –MisoDecember 13, 2005 at 5:37 pm #9348
hmmm. . that is interesting. I am one of those very flexible people, yet have a lot of stagnation, and find that the stretching also helps a great deal. –misoDecember 13, 2005 at 9:09 pm #9350
I personally feel that Michael Winn’S Fundamental courses for opening the Orbit include some pretty nice sets… further I have realized that for myself standing meditation is great (Zhan Zhuan… or spoken out: Dscham Dschong or similar). You might consider travelling finding a teacher to see one to don’t know how many times a year to get your positions checked… I see no trouble in using the stretching form of Falung gong. Do it myself on and off… it is really nice. Regarding Falun Gong I am not sure about the master but I know from many different teachers whose students are weird without the teachers being… I did not say that your teacher is evil… but I think a teacher should have reached a certain place of emotional stability in order to teach… consider to do some practices from the http://www.aypsite.com
very easy to follow and definitely a good starting place to lay a proper foundation for all that is to come I feel… more info on training material: see over at http://www.taobums.com & Trunk has a pretty nice place to start… but currently just can’T remember the link…December 13, 2005 at 10:32 pm #9352
> Trunk has a pretty nice place to start… but currently just can’T remember the link… >
Here it is:
AlchemicalTaoism.comDecember 14, 2005 at 11:37 am #9354
oldh: I know you didn’t say my teacher was evil–I had said that falun gong was evil and my teacher, while problematic in that he could be rude and arrogant, was not (and who knows what he would say about me, since I was a bit resistant to what he had to say, to say the least). Your suggestions are good. I do think for now I should go with something safe; hence the desire to return to the old teacher. Eventually I may pursue something new. Right now, though, I partly have a desire to go back to the old chi gung and see if it works for me in a new way. Also, I’m not sure what it means to mix forms, and people have warned me against it, and I’ve already moved back into the old forms (from my teacher), and worry about mixing them with the falun energy. Also, I’m still getting strange symptoms from the falun gong (in addition to benefits), and really feel I need someone to help me, though the chi master will probably be upset with me (maybe he won’t freak out, but he can be pretty rude and arrogant, and a woman told me that she showed him a pamphlet from a local lecture on falun gong at a major medical school–she was considering going–and he tore it up and stamped on it).
I really appreciate all of the info/interest here; it helps a lot. I’ve been doing chi gong on and off for years without any clear understanding of it, and REALLY doubting its efficacy. Of course I’ve also gotten very little benefit, and my attitude–arising from blocked channels???–may be one of the reasons why. I have to admit that with the falun gong, a new world seems to have opened for me. It’s a shame I can’t continue with it, but I know it wouldn’t be the right thing. –MisoDecember 14, 2005 at 2:02 pm #9356
Sorry to here about the expierences with “Qi practices”, just as a quick note I have
self balanced myself with these arts from a terminal path. I truly believe you will find a practice/group that would work for you. I will even go out on a limb and talk to you outside this forum via email contact. I have been in these practices since 1982 and know many qualified teachers that come with no attachment.
If not interested take care, hope you find your path.
snowlionDecember 14, 2005 at 3:26 pm #9358
i don’t know what to tell you as that is something you have to decide for yourself.
i used to practice Falun Dafa for about 2 years – i haven’t come to the conclusion that i’ve turned away from it i only returned to Taoism because some of the things mr li hongzhi said make absolutely no sense to me and i can’t see myself following something that doesn’t make any sense to me.
I’m absolutely not trying to say anything bad about falun gong but this is the truth i observed based on my experience of practicing falun gong and that truth is still disturbing me and made me unable to get a good night’s sleep for weeks . When i did the exercises to the great consummation way of dafa, i fell an extremely tremendous amount of heat come onto my body and i also felt the falun rotating when i did the falun standing stance.
The first exercise i did in falun dafa was the falun heavenly circuit and lo and behold – something really weird happened – i had the same feeling around my neck that i had when i did the taoist fusion 3 practice of opening the thrusting and belt channels- it felt like some kind of invisible, magnetic force with different layers- that’s the best way i can describe it .
since i felt something i knew that it must have been real – but this later lead to my inevitable, perhaps temporary return to taoism ( unless i can prove taoism wrong )
what forced me to return to and analyze taoism was some of the things in the book zhuan falun and falun gong supposedly written by falun gong’s founder mr li hongzhi.
allow me to explain.
These aren’t mr li’s actual words ( don’t have time now to go into the book to find them )
Fact (1) mr li said – do good things and you gain virtue or “de” and do bad things you gain karma or “yeli”
Fact (2) mr li said the goal of cultivation is to attain the dao and reach spiritual perfection
Fact (3) mr li said people fell off from a divine state and when they drop to this dimension of delusion they were supposed to be destroyed if looked at in terms of abilities OR from the stand point of the great enlightened beings ( the gods that didn’t fall off )
Fact (4) mr li said, to succeed in cultivation one has to follow no second discipline because it will make a mess of one’s gong ( cultivation energy )
When all these facts are examined – it’s leads to an inevitable conclusion that to know the truth one has to enlighten on their own.
how do i know this?
for fact (4) which i mentioned earlier
this i what i have observed:
I am not mr li- therefore i do not know his thoughts. i have never known or seen mr li- therefore i do not know anything he did in his life outside the apparent realm of cultivation besides give lectures . Now,if i didn’t write the book zhuan falun and do not know the thoughts of mr li – how can i know that zhuan falun isn’t a book made up of messages from other cultivation ways ?
for facts (1-3)
in fact (3) the OR implies that the dao has a principle of destroying gods that fell off – if that was not so, what was he referring to? he couldn’t possibly be referring to demons in terms of what happens when one aligns with/ maintains alignment with good because demons are by their apparent natrure against goodness,
now with fact (1) and fact (2) if that’s true according to what mr li believes, then the tao/buddha law itself in his view must be something that is ONLY GOOD because if it wasn’t, there’d be no logic in him telling his followers to not do bad things and to treat negative thoughts as not being ours so that his Fa-Shen ( law bodies ) can eliminate them for us.
now,what’s disturbing to me is this:
if the Tao/Buddha law is GOOD, why would it have a principle that GODS must be destroyed if they drop to the realm of humans by doing evil. ?
that does not make any sense in terms of goodness and i’ll explain why.
as a hypothetical example, let’s assume that I was an ALL GOOD GOD.
if that were so, it would have been impossible for me to do evil to something eles because if i could, i would not be ALL GOOD.
now, free will is a characteristic that allows one to do evil because without free will one cannot act of their own will and therefore cannot do good or evil .
if the tao is perfect accoring to mr li – then it would know that with free will one can do good or do evil and therefore align with good or evil.
but once again hypothetically speaking, if i leave marbles on a floor and someone decided to act like a dam fool and jump on them, fall, break their neck and die- that would be the same as me having done something bad although i did not directly do something to the person who died.
As another example, if John is fighting BOB and i give BOB a gun and he kills John with it, who’s responsible for the murder?
in essence there are 2 people responsible for the murder.
first bob is because he killed john out of free will
second, i would be responsible as well although i did not kill john. the reason i’d be responsible is because i made the situation possible for someone with free will to do something evil or in other words to act according to a certain polarity. therefore The true tao doesn’t act in relation to polarity and therefore must be neutral in relation to polarity although it may contain polarity.
going back to the tao according to how it is in mr li’s views , if it truly was only good it never would have created GODS with free will because it would be responsible for the evil things they did .
Mr li said in a question the someone asked that we exist for the truth of buddha law/tao.- if that’s true, TELL ME- if the dao is all good, how could the dao possibly make gods with free will and then punish them with destruction when it gave them the free will to do good or evil ?
if we exist for the truth of buddha law and it’s all good according to mr li then buddha law/dao only could have created GOOD Gods with NO FREE WILL, therefore making it impossible for them to fall off and not live up to the essence of the Dao or in other words, exist for its truth.
Mr li himself said that parents themselves will have to suffer for the sins of their children when they do not properly raise and discipline them . Since the dao, according to master li created living environments for all the beings in the universe, isn’t it then in falun gong regarded as the origin or the uiniverse?
So doesn’t what i said mr li said in the sentence above contradict what mr li has been teaching about the tao ( fact 1-3 ) when the essence of the tao mr li taught when analyzed according to other things mr li taught or according to one’s own free thinking logic leads to the inevitable conclusion that it all makes absolutely no sense ?
This is why last week i started re-thinking about taoism and expecially taoist cosmology .
Now Miso, in relation to which cultivation way to follow- I absolutely don’t know because i can find flaws in all of them. it’s up to you to decide what you want for yourself. What i belive i must do is enlighten on my own Based on things that apply to me ( such as being able to read/not being able to read or being able to use tianmu ( third eye/ not being able to use tianmu ) and do a cultivation way that has phenomena ( such as energy related states/feelings) which conforms to what i’ve enlightened to because there seems to be no other choice.
it’s impossible to know if zhuan falun was written by mr li since i was not him and can’t read his mind and because of that it’s impossible to know according to the principle mr li taught about following one cultivation way only if zhuan falun isn’t a books of mixed ideas from different cultivation ways. i can’t disregard what i said because in zhuan falun mr li makes reference to Buddha Shakyamuni’s ” no ;aw is absolute” and he also made reference to Lao Tzu’s words in the tao te ching from chapter 41 in the tao te ching whhich is
“When superior students hear of the Tao
They strive to practice it.
When middling students hear of the Tao
They sometimes keep it and sometimes lose it.
When inferior students hear of the Tao
They have a big laugh.”
now, what i really have a hard time beliving is the fact that mr li said that only a buddha can offer salvation to sentient beings since a greater buddha would change the way of things in the world with just one word.
mr li said he has a falun paradise, therefore according to that statement he must be a buddha or a god or something that’s not human but lives forever and has divine powers since he said only those at the buddha level have paradises of their own and since he also said his LAW BODIES are an embodiment of his divine powers and wisdom – WE ALL KNOW WHAT DIVINE MEANS.
now, the words buddha means an enlightened person through cultivation, mr li himself said in zhuan falun that cultivation ways of the past didn’t allow their disciples to come across the teachings of other schools of cultivation to prevent contaminating their minds with messages from other cultivation ways and therefore making it impossible for them to acttain salvation because of his apparent NO SECOND DISCIPLINE notion.
Now, if mr li was a buddha, he would have boundless wisdom at least conforming to his level since he said one’s level determines their wisdom.
so, what i find hard to believe is, how could he make reference to the words of other cultivation ways?
If the NO SECOND DISCIPLINE notion was true, wouldn’t a buddha not say things from other cultivation ways in their discipline since there is the potential that some adept whether experienced or unexperienced can read those words and have them memorized unintentionally or intentionally by constantly reading them when they read zhuan falun?
not only does that stuff exist in zhuan falun, it exist in his other lectures as well- i don’t remember exactly but i do remember him talking about the phases of matter in the pure daoist opinion in taoist cosmology- things like bagua and tai chi and the wuji and how things come into existence etc .
i hope this helps you Miso on what my view of Falun Gong has become. I have way too much to say so i’ll stop here because if i continue – it might get so confusing you may not understand what i’m talking about .
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