July 10, 2006 at 1:33 pm #15487
I only just noticed that Michael replied to my post original post about Parts and Fusion, all the way down the page.
you raised some good points about the application of NLP, and I do mostly agree. NLP is often a way of ‘getting what you want’ rather than the holistic methods of ‘integrating soul fragments’ which is kind of how I see Fusion. However NLP is a huge blanket term and for me it’s a set of techniques and not a specific approach… you can take NLP tools and use them for business, for ‘getting what you want’ or for manipulating people etc. but what I’m interested in is using NLP tools to ‘integrate parts’! this follows the holistic principle… rather than supporting your ego into filling its blck-hole of wants and desires – I rather approach the wants and desires as ‘parts’ and allow them to integrate to the big I…
The reason I identify any aspect of my ego and behaviour as a part is because it’s more usefull that way… it’s like in Quantum Mechanics if you start to measure the *wave* of light, it immediately collapses into a *particle* of light…
So let’s say I get very shy arround strangers… and this behaviour is automatic, and I dont have a choice… this to me means that it’s an unintegrated ‘part’ of me. So I take the part and using the NLP method I find out its motivations, its goals for me, and little by little I move up the hierarchy of goals, untill I reach total emptiness! or Tao or whatever… because every part, no matter how much it ‘misbehaves’ has one ultimate goal – to return to nothingness… and by using the NLP method, I allow that part to live out its purpose, and it becomes integrated into Me… next time I’m in a situation where that part would originally ‘misbehave’ I have a choice – I can act shy or not!
The method is actually the same as I described in another post on setting goals…
I’ve found this an absolutely magical process… having done it on many of my parts, I feel much more free and centered… ofcourse there are many, many parts left to integrate. I’ve helped people intgrate parts of themselves that have cause untold pain for dozens of years… and in about 10 minutes they completely forget they ever had the problem and feel a sense of calm emptiness.
This brings me to the difference between Parts Integration and Fusion. I believe they both work on a similar principle… integrating emotional parts of your ego. The difference, to me, seems cultural.
The oriental culture (imo) tend to operate in more ‘general’ terms… whereas the occidental, western culture tends to operate in ‘specifics’. I see this micro/macrocosmically – the chinese language is rather general, one character can mean many different things with a general theme… the culture is much more about the family and the tribe… I think it was here that someone posted an article about how orientals tend to view photographs – basically they consider the backgound as much (if not more than) the foreground.
Western culture on the other hand is much more about the individual… our language is very specific, in the photograph experiment showed the western audience almost exclusively focused on the foreground. This is like the wave – particle duality of Quantum Mechanics… as westerners we like distinct, individuated, ‘bits’ of information or whatever… the oriental culture seems to approach it in a holistic may, thinking in terms of phases of a whole, members of a family etc.
So I see the exact same difference between Fusion and Parts Integration… in Fusion you dont work with specific memories, you work with say ‘anger’ in general… where-as in Parts Integration you *have to* work with very specific times and moments in one’s life. so in terms of anger you would specify – ‘the anger I have when someone pushes in front of me in a queue’… and you remember a specific event of this happening and then apply the method on that.
I’m not trying to say that one method is better than another… I’m trying to point out that sometimes using a western method on a westerner will have a more profound effect than an eastern method!? I think that Fusion has many benefits that Parts Integration doesn’t (energetic, connection with the elemental phases, and a grounding in the body) but I do believe that Parts Integration (at least for me and the people I’ve met) is better at managing the ego.
In my practice I do the microcosmic orbit, smiling, and grounding… and every day I integrate a part or two… I’m planning to start fusion when I feel like I’ve integrated most of my parts…
What do you guys think? The people that have completed Fusion – are you free of all automatic egoic processes (wanting, needing, behaving ‘automatically’, having emotions control your behaviour etc?) – do you ever *want* one thing and *do* another, or have internal conflicts etc?
fJuly 11, 2006 at 4:04 am #15488
“in Fusion you dont work with specific memories, you work with say ‘anger’ in general… where-as in Parts Integration you *have to* work with very specific times and moments in one’s life.”
I don’t do it like that, F. I go to the center of whatever I am feeling and if it’s specific, then, it’s specific. If it’s general, then, that’s where I start. I haven’t got any of these practices blocked off like you describe in my mind. I am always aiming for the central interaction to take place, the alchemy. Sometimes that means I feel my way through details (particles) and sometimes I’m on a wave of flowing generalities. This is especially true while steaming (Kan and Li). It is clearly my intention to transmute that determines what happens in the process. I look for that feeling of connecting with what wants to happen.
I think this happens because we don’t HAVE to understand what is going on all the time for the alchemy to work for us. Often you just hold the alignment and give in, letting go of controlling. I have had some of my most profound experiences this way. Specific things will just come up then and go through some kind of change.
But I do see your point about the parts going toward their core states, as we’ve discussed before. Sometimes that works very well. Sometimes. I have come to understand that for me it can happen either way.
“are you free of all automatic egoic processes (wanting, needing, behaving ‘automatically’, having emotions control your behaviour etc?) – do you ever *want* one thing and *do* another, or have internal conflicts etc?”
Those things used to happen to me, but now that I’m an allperfect master…
Smiling in the perfection of the process,
AlexanderJuly 11, 2006 at 8:40 pm #15490
I’ve realised that this process of bring all your parts to emptiness is a rather buddhist approach to enlightenment… the people that have ’emptied themselves of ego’ in this way seem to have all their energy in the upper dan tien… ofcourse they have the problem of the ‘suffering down here’ much later on in their practice… because the shen gets disconnected from the earth and the body… this is not what I’m looking for.
however… it’s quite obviously a very powerfull and profound process, and can and should be used as a beggining/intermediate stage… dissolving conflicts in the ego speeds up all the energetic process by hundreds of times… it’s just to carry on further up the path a more body-centered route must be taken (imo)… So I’m sticking to my plans… slowly integrating my ego, until such a time when I’m dealing with the pure energy of the organs – and then fusion will come in.
>>But I do see your point about the parts going toward their core states, as we’ve discussed before. Sometimes that works very well. Sometimes. I have come to understand that for me it can happen either way.<<
The process seems to follow a similar alchemical principle to fusion… you take the state to it's final purpose which is to return to Tao… but in fusion it is *general*… you take what comes up in through a metaphorical journey back to it's core… and you do this every day with everything.
In parts integration you pick a specific part and take it to its core… Doing something specific has specific results. Doing something in general gives general results. For example how would you use Fusion to help someone with a phobia? Firstly they would have to get to the fusion level which can take anything from months to years… then the phobia, over time may slowly get disolved no?
I recently took someone with a terrible germ phobia through the parts integration process. She'd been suffering with this for 12 years! had 3 years psychotherapy work during which time the phobia had been getting worse. It was quite complicated because it was linked to her panic attacks and her 'obsessive compulsive disorder' (I dont believe in such diagnosis')… she obsessively cleaned all the time – her hands were usually red-raw because she washed every 10 minutes with antibacterial chemicals, she would get panic attacks when she would get into a dirty place, and was constantly frigtened of potential germs etc.
So, just to test this method, we identified a few parts – the part of her that made her panic about dirt and a part of her that wanted her and her family to be safe and healthy (these were the two ends of one polarity)… so we took both those parts to emptiness, she felt 'ok' and went home… I talked to her yesterday (4 days later) and she says that she doesn't think it has worked, but that she hasn't had any panic attacks or phobic responses (she normaly had several a day!)… I talked to her son (my mate) who says that she's *completely* changed… she doesn't clean obsessively, her hands have skin on them again and she goes outside, eats, socialises etc without any problem… he said that when he tells her how she used to behave she laughs and says something like 'dont be silly i wasn't ever that bad'.
so although she hasn't really noticed – there has been a drastic and rather dramatic change in her life… and it took us 20 minutes!!! How long would it take with fusion? How about if I notice a specific automatic behaviour I do (I smile when with strangers… not a 'bad' thing – but it's completely automatic and uncocnious) is it likely to be cleared using fusion?
I dont know – I'm not knocking fusion, and I havent tried it for any length of time… I just noticed that this technique is similar and (on a time and effort to result scale) far more effective in terms of clearing egoic processes. I thought that maybe the reason that fusion is designed the way it is is because of the context and culture that it was born from… (sudden change in an individual wouldn't go down too well with the rest of the family/viallage/tribe etc, I imagine) and the whole cultural difference in terms of general and specific…July 12, 2006 at 4:33 am #15492
“I’ve realised that this process of bring all your parts to emptiness is a rather buddhist approach to enlightenment…to carry on further up the path a more body-centered route must be taken (imo)… So I’m sticking to my plans… slowly integrating my ego, until such a time when I’m dealing with the pure energy of the organs – and then fusion will come in.”
This is where the problem is- you can’t always control the process. You can have goals but what about the way the lifeforce wants it to happen. That often doesn’t coincide with one’s personal agenda. I think you are trying to figure out how it will or can go ahead of time and in my experience that’s going to go only so far. The “body-centered route” calls for a lot of surrender of the mind’s control. (Believe me, I know!) The integration of the ego is done through all the levels of these practices. That’s what they were designed to do. But one can use many other techniques, some learned, some organically discovered, as they are needed according to what’s right at the time. Fusion, et al, is not an artificially imposed process. It’s an organic one. The Daoists observed what the lifeforce was up to and followed it. That’s its great strength. I think you are trying to give your process growth hormone shots to speed it up.
“In parts integration you pick a specific part and take it to its core… Doing something specific has specific results. Doing something in general gives general results.”
I have had many many experiences when techniques from NLP and other energy psychology systems were just not effective no matter who did them with me or if I did them on myself. Sometimes they would work beautifully. But most often I have found that growth is not a one shot deal despite some of the evidence. I have taken parts to their core states and found that things would shift some but rarely would anything be completely resolved all at once. My experience is that there are too many interconnected levels for that to happen. Fusion combined with all the other practices done regularly provides integration over time. And I bet that is the only stable way to do it for most everyone. The miracle healings of 15 minute phobia cures seem to be the exception. As a workshop leader I know said: “It’s great when it happens that way!”
“For example how would you use Fusion to help someone with a phobia?”
I realize that sometimes parts of us can change rapidly. But mostly people want to have that happen so they don’t have to go through the ordeal of personal growth. I sincerely wish it were true that we could all heal instantly (in 15 minutes) but I just don’t believe it after 33 years in the field of personal growth. There’s too much stuff underneath.
Fusion and the other practices of alchemy are about balancing the energies of the shen with the original spirit. Things heal as they can.
“Firstly they would have to get to the fusion level which can take anything from months to years… then the phobia, over time may slowly get disolved no?”
You never know how it’s going to happen.
“I thought that maybe the reason that fusion is designed the way it is is because of the context and culture that it was born from… (sudden change in an individual wouldn’t go down too well with the rest of the family/viallage/tribe etc, I imagine) and the whole cultural difference in terms of general and specific… ”
I think that ancient cultures with their armies of shamans (“wu” they were called in China) were very much in touch with the possibility and reality of instant or quick curing – when it was appropriate. The problem with this concept in our modern times is that we are often obsessively focussed on bypassing the growth process for the end result.
About 2 1/2 years ago I did the Core Transformation process with the parts of me that liked eating certain things that I knew were not healthy for me, sugar, in particular. I was aghast when I found out after several days that it had worked brilliantly! I had almost no thoughts about many of the things I was used to eating that I now was unconcerned about. Three months later I went on a long trip with the intent to relocate and the energy of the changes started to wane. I found that I could not hold together what was working so well anymore. I was discouraged and angry with myself because of the “failure.”
Last year I went through a long, deep spiritual-psychological-physical crisis during which my body simply released itself from those foods I had gone back to eating. It was a long term growth process for me. When the eating shift occured it immediately rooted and I have been on the best diet of my life without effort since then. Actually, I can’t fully explain how it happened. I can’t attribute it to any one or two things. It was an overall shift from a deep inner place which I had ZERO control over, except to go along with.
Sometimes things can shift when there’s little resistance. Ask me how many times I’ve taken resistant parts to their core states over the last few years!
It takes what it takes.
-AJuly 12, 2006 at 8:14 am #15494
You make some great points… and I do agree on the whole. I had a great giggle about your mention of my want for spiritual transformation on steroids… and I guess you’re right – a part of me is still trying to control the process and make it go quicker. And that’s another little ego-game that I need to deal with… But there is another part of me that knows I am not the same as the shamans of a thousand years ago… it’s the ‘101st monkey’ concept… when someone makes a great new leap others arround them get there *much* faster… I also think that timing and time cycles are very subjective… you do learn things very quickly, and you can unlearn them very quickly… but an overall (general) transformation in ego and personality happens on a different cycle… it’s much slower. And that’s where Fusion comes in.
I’ve got some tips on the NLP based processes, and a possible explanation for your ‘failure’ in the diet transformation. I’ve recently discovered that the key is not to take the part to its core, but to go one further!!! this has a really profound effect – because if you go further – there is nothing there, and there is everything there it’s like the primordial oneness/emtiness. So you can guide the part to its core (which will have a very positive, spiritual, non-dual goal for you) and the part will be far more evolved… but only when you return it into the primordial emptiness (one step further than its ultimate goal for you) then the whole tension and differentiation between ‘me’ and ‘the part’ disappears… this is very important.
The other important thing (and the possible reason for your ‘failure’) is that you need to deal with the polarity of parts. If there is a ‘shadow’ part of you that wants to eat nasty food, there is also another part that wants you to be healthy… in truth they’re actually just *one* part polarised in two directions… dealing with one direction will result in an inpermanant transformation… but if you also work on the part that wants you to be healthy, then the whole system integrates back into “I”, and the effect is similar to what you mention (and what the lady I wrote about experienced) – you dont even notice it, and without any conscious effort you have a completely free will over the food you eat!
(neither of these two points are addressed in any NLP material I’ve studied – I got them from Zivorad Slavinski, a european gnostic.)
Also although I keep mentioning the specific nature of this kind of parts work, it’s really important to let the process ‘flow’ and be intuitive… one always has to check for any oppositions to the change you want… sometimes there will be *many*, sometimes not… Parts work has to be organic, just like Fusion, for it to work well.
anyway… thanks a lot, this has been a very productive discussion for me!July 12, 2006 at 2:52 pm #15496
You go to the core of problem. You go to the nothingness in the problem.
You go back to the original state of the problem, but now it full being connected to potential.all. That is the magic.
Yet it while it releases great tension. Such absence of tension. ‘Nature abhors vacuum’. So go back and fill. (or keep the center, a biggest challenge)
Slavinski usually fills the space with expanded white light. To stabilize.
You do not need structure for discreation of creative tensions.
Order and chaos. For order already is.
Yet when creating it demands polarities.
In Slavinski/scientology it is generaly presented in a pole and resistance to such polarity. Yet such polarity is its own polarity and in such perhaps it is inproper to call it resistance to A, perhaps it should be called its own name, like B.
In such systems one posits the goal and processes the resistance. Then what else can become. But the great carma of the body of nature. (A and negA poles)
Yet there is the creation of sex. The A and B poles. A bigger paradigm. But it demands stickiness. When recognized it gives meaning and order when there was none before. A creation.
You start such processing on chi level. The emotional/mental states. Then move up the spiral.
The challenge the ching level.
Try working with the body parts. The other manifest gross stuff.
And establish communication there.
Gross creation. That is great challenge.
Called the nectar of life.
The challenge is also the verbalization of question.
How to issue a question. A inquiry.
For supeficial code called language is a local consensus on meaning.
A lower mental level generaly.
It takes deeper understanding.
This comes dangerously close to chi kung.July 12, 2006 at 4:51 pm #15498
“I had a great giggle about your mention of my want for spiritual transformation on steroids… and I guess you’re right – a part of me is still trying to control the process and make it go quicker.”
I’m glad you found that funny too. I thought later that I should have added “You should be more freeform about it.” Ha!
Personally, I have tried everything imaginable to make things go faster. (I have had all kinds of speed problems even to the point of having had to reteach myself how to eat by taking a mouthful, putting down the fork and sitting on my hands so I wouldn’t rush to feed myself!)I finally came up with a personal slogan/motto that I have been practicng for the last few years:
“The slower I go, the faster I go.”
I found that this really works. It’s very quantum. I am finding my “zero point.”
“I also think that timing and time cycles are very subjective… you do learn things very quickly, and you can unlearn them very quickly… but an overall (general) transformation in ego and personality happens on a different cycle… it’s much slower. And that’s where Fusion comes in.”
Aye. Wait till you get to steaming. That’s a whole nother world. Much more blissful and powerful.
“So you can guide the part to its core (which will have a very positive, spiritual, non-dual goal for you) and the part will be far more evolved… but only when you return it into the primordial emptiness (one step further than its ultimate goal for you) then the whole tension and differentiation between ‘me’ and ‘the part’ disappears… this is very important.”
I am interested in these thoughts but not sure what to do with them. When I have done Core Trans (did you say that you’ve read the book/know this particular process?) I have taken them all to states like “Oneness” in which there seems to be no place to go beyond to. In these states the parts feel fulfilled of what they were looking for in the first place. So how is what you are doing different?
“The other important thing (and the possible reason for your ‘failure’) is that you need to deal with the polarity of parts.”
This is also an interesting idea. I will look more closely at it.
“one always has to check for any oppositions to the change you want… sometimes there will be *many”…”
My experience is, yes, there are many. I think that is probably the biggest reason things don’t move faster with this stuff. You have to course through level after level of parts because there is so much intertwining of issues -all connected, I firmly believe at this point, to a central issue that has to do with our core relationship with the divine and our fears of the divine and the guilt we have about being in separation from it/ourselves. The ultimate issue.
“thanks a lot, this has been a very productive discussion for me!”
Ya, me too.
AlexanderJuly 12, 2006 at 5:06 pm #15500
If I understand you correctly you are saying that chi gung and the like is the means to communicate with the jing and if you apply a certian understanding of polarity interaction without a specific and limiting structure you can get to the core of a problem. Yes?
Like holding one part against or with the opposite part in a neutral space to establish a creative tension and cause transformation to happen?July 12, 2006 at 11:04 pm #15502
>>Wait till you get to steaming. That’s a whole nother world. Much more blissful and powerful.<>I have taken them all to states like “Oneness” in which there seems to be no place to go beyond to. In these states the parts feel fulfilled of what they were looking for in the first place. So how is what you are doing different?<<
yes – it's a little counter-intuitive – going to the core, you feel a completion to the process, but in that case – the real completion is for your *part* not *YOU* – i.e. your part feels complete – *but you still have a part!*… If you go one further… to the 'no place beyond it' – it is pure emptiness – it is pure *you*… this is where the part integrates back into you… and it's no longer a part, but becomes YOU! like a river reaching the ocean. You have to be brave enough to step into the emptiness… even if it seems silly or useless, that's the real secret… because in the core transformation process you get the part to such an evolved state that it works towards your ultimate wellbeing, and it feels good… but if you have spiritual goals, then it's important to completely dissolve the part… so there is no part – just *you*!
And the polarity concept is very powerfull too… especially usefull for 'big' or 'prominent' parts of you… such as eating (nutrition – poison), pain – pleasure impulse, domination – submission process… smart – stupid, sexy/loving – moral/rigid processes… etc
when you work with both ends of the polarity, many of the little intertwining issues get resolved without any effort. Because a polarity is a whole yin-yang *system*, if you break the system down, all its small connections automatically fall appart too.
July 12, 2006 at 11:13 pm #15504
1. yes you need to fill the empty space with something – I usually do the primordial chi kung after, so the space fills with a complete microcosm of the macro.
2. Creating does demand polarity… so does sex… so does living in this physical dimension. You cant get away from it… but once your ego is empty of *unconcious* tension… you are free to create tension when and where you need to – in a kind of tai chi dance. Slavinski has missed this aspect of spirituality (imo)
3. Yes – slavinski’s missed this important aspect too! that’s why I felt a buddhist vibe off his students. Although they achieve non-dual conciousness in the upper dan tien, their body is completely left behind, so they end up getting depressed. or they find some spontanious impulse to work on the body. (sometimes it takes a major health issue to bring them to it).
4. I tend to use ‘language in the moment’. as in – the same phrase wouldn’t mean much separated from the context. I say ‘fear’ but I get a very specific sensation in a specific location, connected with a specific visual representation etc.July 13, 2006 at 12:03 am #15506
“I’m in eager anticipation! a few years to go untill i reach that level, I think.”
Don’t bet on it. Things are moving pretty fast these days. It’s the end of the world, remember?
“the real completion is for your *part* not *YOU* – i.e. your part feels complete – *but you still have a part!*… If you go one further… to the ‘no place beyond it’ – it is pure emptiness – it is pure *you*… this is where the part integrates back into you… and it’s no longer a part, but becomes YOU! like a river reaching the ocean.”
In core transformation as I learned it (in person and from the book) you invite the Part after reaching its core state to literally come into you through your entire timeline since conception and then on a cellular level into your present physical body and you share each other’s experiences and state. There’s something I’m not getting yet about your final step. What words would you use with a part to bring it into emptiness? If I have a part that went from, say, nervousness to oneness and then brought that completed part into myself, then what would I do?July 13, 2006 at 12:50 am #15508
This is a very interesting topic. I’m still relatively new to the Taoist healing arts but I’ve had a lot of experience with Vipassana and my “parts” coming up and biting me on the ass. I read an experience by Michael where he mentioned that he met a former monk who had problems implementing Vipassana in the city and that is interesting because I have met quite a few people who’ve had that issue too. From my own experience I notice that after long retreats I develop an attachment to what I believe that “integration” or “peace” should be. Coming back to the city I begin to resist the new energy which can seem aggressive or a bit of a struggle. When I surrender to it I notice that it’s not that the energy itself needs to dissipate but that I learn to make my mind move past the struggle by yielding to it. I can’t really comment on what is happening Alchemically as I don’t know the lingo.
I work as a kinesiologist and NLP practitioner and notice that while a lot of the work I do allows people to “clear” issues at a certain level – I feel that at deeper levels the root of the issue still exists. In a sense the perception that this energy is an issue at all is a mind state that pulls us into believing that we have problems – but “purifying” that mind state seems to require a lot more work than what can be achieved in a short kinesiology or NLP session. I believe that the two work well together but I do not believe that NLP or kinesiology work as effectively as some types of meditation at the deepest levels. Then again many people who come to me don’t want to work at the deepest levels – they just want to be able to do what they want to do without undue pain and suffering. It just depends on what we want.
What I have noticed though and this is with practitioners too is that we can keep trying to use techniques to run away from actually transforming or understanding our issues. If a deeper level of integration or reconciliation is to take place we have to meet that energy. For the record I did spend quite a few years using meditation also to block my awareness of certain issues. But again I believe that it’s about what the individual wants and needs at that particular time.July 13, 2006 at 10:21 am #15510
oh I see… I think the Core Transformations process I read about was an edited version. What I’m proposing is actually much simpler than either of the two.
Do you remember the Goals post I wrote not so long ago? That’s the exact process right there… but with a couple of slight variations… firstly you work on parts not goals… usually unwanted parts first… you have to first identify the part – first as a phrase, then remember the specific times it manifested, then notice where it ‘lives’ (either in your body or somewhere else) – you then give it characteristics – what colour is it? how big? what shape? texture? size? weight? (we’re making a particle out of the wave here!).
Then you talk to the part as if it was another, separate entity, and you go through the hierarchy of goals it has for you in the same way as the process described in the Goals post… except you ask it “what do you want for me that’s even more important?” (instead of ‘what do I get’)… then you and your part experience whatever the more important goal is very vividly, and you ask again… at some point you’ll reach its ultimate goal which will be something like ‘oneness’ or ‘completion’ or some non-dual sounding, spiritual ideal… instead of stopping at that point – you ask again… what is even more important… the answer will be ‘nothing’ but there is a real sense of nothingness there – and you have to step into it and embrace it, and then go back down the ladder of goals the part had for you and notice that every positive goal will seem strengthened and every negative goal will seem silly (dont be surprised if you start giggling!)
then you ask if there is an opposing part… sort it out if there is… then find the polar opposites of the parts you’ve worked with, sort them out… and then finally you fill yourself with light as Jernej mentioned, this is important – you have to fill the vacuum with something! (I fill it with the energy created by the wuji qi gong)July 13, 2006 at 10:35 am #15512
Great – you’re an NLP prac… so you know full well how many of the processes are more of a ‘re-shuffling’ excersise than a true integration… it’s like you move the fragmented parts around a little so it’s more comfortable to do what you want. With this technique it’s kind of like doing the 6 step reframe, but instead of coming to a compromise between parts, we integrate them back into the big I.
Doing this over time seems to have very profound spiritual effects… you can change many things that are considered unchangeable in NLP (such as your dominant metaprograms)… at some point you notice that you cant use the technique any longer – because there are no parts… it’s just a complete ‘YOU’.
If you’re interested you should check out Zivorad Slavinski, and his ebook ‘Aspectics’ which is basically this process with more padding.
The clients you would want to do this with would have to show an interest in spirituality… because the effects of doing a lot of this is like very deep emptiness meditation that generalises into your waking, normal, day-to-day life.July 13, 2006 at 7:11 pm #15514
Thanks for following through on this Freeform. That’s what I thought you meant and I’ll have to see how it wants to work out in practice.
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