September 2, 2006 at 6:09 pm #17333
Note: two posts on Healing Tao and Buddhism and True Self vs. False Self are posted in lower sections.
on your supposed Great Denial:
>The great tao alchemist denial: We are not currently Immortal and Eternal!
This is like calling holding a tiny tree seed and declaring, “this is a mighty oak!”.
If the essence of the seed does not receive the proper water and fire, it does not become a mighty oak.
Don’t confuse potential with actualization.
>Some alchemists beleive each human has multiple souls and shen and if they are not integrated at death they will split and go into the cosmos,
this first part of your sentence describes my understanding.
>the chance for the unique spirit in human form to continual to exist is lost forever.
this part of your sentence contains a false assumption. Consciousness cannot die, but it can change shape. Until you integrate your persona, you don’t “own” your spirit, Humanity owns it. Nothing is lost, Humanity recycles your struggles and learning into new form that will undero alchemical transformations that are endless.
Your statement ironically accuses me of taking the Buddhist position – which is that all human consciousness in Nirvana SHOULD cease to exist, as Fajin quoted so clearly from the Wikipedia.
>Realistically and statistically speaking most have no real chance for immortality according to this view? This seems to be a very fear driven approach?
Statistically, please let me know how many Buddhists have attained the Non-Self of Nirvana?
Taoism is the only religion I know that accepts imperfect humans into the ranks of its 8 Immortals. That is why they have so captured the popular Chinese imagination of even peasants- these are not perfect virtuous goody-goody Arhats living in another realm, these are people from all walks of life with warts and blemishes and different useful skills.
Human immortality is achieved by simply allowing one’s destiny to spontaneously unfold, despite great resistance in the culture or nature. The higher levels of immortality require great discipline and practice. should it be otherwise?
I am unclear why you perceive the alchemical process to be fear driven. It simply is acknowledging that that is real consequences to one’s human choices, both here and in the hereafter.
It seems more probable that the notion that your position of “everyone is already immortal” and thus the implied “no one need to integrate before death” is an attempt to assuage the fear that one might not be integrated.
I agree with your underlying premise, that the greater process will continue to resolve yin-yang tensions in the physical plane even if you chose to do nothing and simply watch the process. Just because the alchemist chooses to develop skills that facilitate the process doesn’t mean they are doing it out of fear.
Bagua, I continue to note that your assumption of universal immortality is not something that I can find in traditonal buddhist texts, especially not wikipedia……
Just wondering why,
MichaelSeptember 2, 2006 at 10:37 pm #17334
I only want to quote one part, rest is for Bagua.
>>this part of your sentence contains a false assumption. Consciousness cannot die, but it can change shape. Until you integrate your persona, you don’t “own” your spirit, Humanity owns it. Nothing is lost, Humanity recycles your struggles and learning into new form that will undero alchemical transformations that are endless.
Your statement ironically accuses me of taking the Buddhist position – which is that all human consciousness in Nirvana SHOULD cease to exist, as Fajin quoted so clearly from the Wikipedia.<<
*The notion we had over false self and true self is key here. Human concsiousness is immortal concsiousness, which is our true self. Like I stated in my above post, the emotional concsiousness is just something that is built up after we are born. It is this emotional concsiousness that is being referred to which must be extinguished for nirvana, or immortality, which really are the same.
It is the ego (heart shen) that becomes still and does nothing, and the true, immortal self (yuan shen) is the one that does not die. You then "own" your spirit, not humanity. This is the true meaning of immortality, both in a Buddhist and Daoist way. They all lead to the same root. There are not 2 different roots, there is only one. They both lead to that one, Wu Ji.
P.S. I do believe Max said that there were more Buddhists in history to have reached the final goal than Daoists.
FajinSeptember 2, 2006 at 11:48 pm #17336
Does each person contain Yuan Shen? If yes then each person is eternal!
baguaSeptember 3, 2006 at 12:32 am #17338
What are your views on reincarnation?September 3, 2006 at 12:52 am #17340
Thanks for the info on the tai ji, i decided to go for one day to check it out and you were right.
Reincarnation? The truth is i dont know for sure. The longer I live the clearer it is there is some past influence in our lives, not just our parents. Tao traditon seems to have more than one view on these things, for example, some beleive the po is with us from conception and our mother’s Po nourishes us to birth. The Hun enters the body after 3-days, in this view this Hun comes from somewhere and we can assume it has qualites to it, past experience. My life experience, which is what I speaking from, not some theories or doctrine, is there are many influences from the past that comprise who we are.
What do you think?
BaguaSeptember 3, 2006 at 1:32 am #17342
Many influences from the past is what makes us what we are now. That’s all karma, be it good or bad. The point is in being free from karma.
We are only born again because of karma from past lives, so the question is, what happens when weare free of karma, what will happen when the body goes?
To me, immortality is complete consistency. Karma is cyclical and one is not immortal if he has karma. It is the same thing Dogen struggled with between original awakening inherent in everyone and an acquired enlightenment through practice.
Inherently, yes we are immortal, but the immortality that Taoists speak of, is the same as the mahaparinirvana that Buddhists speak of. I think this is what we should work after. How I love the Zen practice of shikantaza, just sitting there like an immortal or Buddha already enlightened not needing to do anything!
Btw, why do you practice so many qigong forms if all you need is Zen practice?
FajinSeptember 3, 2006 at 1:40 am #17344
Because Qi Gong is also for health and vitality, strenghtens the body and is healing, which is a major flaw in sitting only, regardless of the tradition. I think these should go hand in hand for a healthly life.
I always seek to find the most effecient and effective qi gong method, too many are not for regular people, to long and to complex, so Im very open minded to find simple, yet effective methods. For example, I have learned atleast 10-ba duan jin forms and pick the ones I like and ones regular people can practice.
baguaSeptember 3, 2006 at 1:54 am #17346
Not sure if this is on topic exactly.
Like to comment about the factor of time.
The astrology wheel is a map of energies moving through time. Of great value with meditation and healing practice. One reason – shows form moving around formless centre. In moving to stillness, silence, centre, one can rise up above time, be above it in a way. IMO some meditation practice can be just going back and forth to/from this still centre without much change to the form. A kind of dissociation, a little rest, zonk out. This can be useful in some ways but sometimes little learning and evolution takes place in the practice – that occurs through being bounced around by ones transits and progressions – movements in the wheel of time – bringing certain energies stored in the unconscious (memories) and prior conditioning into the fray for further learning. The great thing about inner alchemy practice is that it facilitates and accelerates this natural process. The water element stores the deep memories (as taught my Michael) – the light of consciousness in practice allows review, release of old energies and new understanding. We then move on. What is useful about astrology in this context is having some clues as to the origins of particular issues on line and how far back the roots might go. We are after all dealing with all kinds of ancestral influences and learning taking place within family groups. Having an expanded view of time an be helpful. Time means movement, spin, orbit. To just meditate on the centre and deny one’s form is the kind of ‘suicide’ being discussed here. The methods taught here emphasize interplay of formless/form – a true balance that allows things to keep on learning and evolving. Some of these old religious philosophical systems are really retarding. That’s where we are now with Pluto in Sagittarius – the ongoing evolvement of philosophical sytems through breakdown/rebuild (Pluto’s symbolism, whether dwarf planet/binary system or whatever). Anyway, just wanted to highlight time, memories and conditioning as the grist for the mill. Over.
RSeptember 3, 2006 at 3:32 am #17348
Yuan shen is who you are? Do you mean bagua? Or is bagua false? Does bagua stay conscience and go to heaven? I said what I needed to say awile ago on this subject.September 3, 2006 at 10:45 am #17350
>>Taoism is the only religion I know that accepts imperfect humans into the ranks of its 8 Immortals. That is why they have so captured the popular Chinese imagination of even peasants- these are not perfect virtuous goody-goody Arhats living in another realm, these are people from all walks of life with warts and blemishes and different useful skills.
Human immortality is achieved by simply allowing one’s destiny to spontaneously unfold, despite great resistance in the culture or nature.<<
Thanks! NNSeptember 3, 2006 at 10:50 am #17352
Did anyone ever see ‘Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves’? Don’t deny it, I know you did!
There’s this great bit in it. Morgan Freeman plays a moslem in this film, a moor, who returns to England with Robin. They call him a ‘painted man’ because of his dark skin.
At an evening celebration in the forest he is sitting by the fire when a little girl comes up to him.
Did God paint you?
Because Allah loves wondrous variety.
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