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Hello all:
It seems to me “Will”, which corresponds to Kidneys and Zhi Shen must be in harmony with all five shen, that one’s Will may be out of balance, creating disharmony and fragmentation, leading to the activation of unfavorable aspects of Ego and separation.
Did you know that the Five Phases was called “Family Therapy” in an ancient time, meaning influence one and all are influenced, they are inseparable, “Will” must be part of the whole and has its place and purpose, but must not be overly emphasized.
It seems we agree Wu Ji “somehow” created the polarity of Yin-Yang, some choose to say Wu Ji willed it, I prefer to say it is beyond my comprehension; from Yin-Yang to Tai Ji and then all things of life, included in this model is early heaven and later heaven. Now, did Wu Ji create this energy pattern for the sole purpose of the Shen, is this entire model of creation for the sole purpose of Shen to evolve and to travel back to Wu Ji, if yes what benefit to Wu Ji would this have?
Smiling as the Sun is setting so magnificently.
bagua
Bagua,
It seems as though this is a continuation of round 7, I will continue with your post.
You are correct in saying that we cannot comprehend the Dao and why it chose to manifest itself as Wu Ji which eventually gave rise to all things. If we look at Wu Ji as creating the potentiality of the universe, then we know the intent of Dao or God as I like to call it, or may it be the “isness” because it simply is, or simply exists. It means that Dao has created the potential for all matter and all things. It is up to us as to what to do with this potential.
Think of it as a stem cell that has the potential to become any cell in the body, or a tachyon/neutrino that can become any frequency in the universe. It is pure potential! Wu Ji gave rise to that potential. Shen concsiousness had the choice of doing with it as it pleased through intent.
So, the reason for the isness or God/Dao, whatever the hell you call it, to create that potential is the mystery. WHY DID IT DO THIS??? Does it seek benefit? I don’t think so. I think that God doesn’t seek for anything at all, it just gives formless form which ALLOWS us to seek benfit from it as observation techniques posted by Max, ALLOW us to obtain benefit from them, which is why we do them. Of course, as Michael and I agree, emptiness is the opposite of intent.
If we then complare emptiness to Wu Ji and shen/concsiousness to intent than it is shen/concsiosness that seeks benefit and Wu Ji that seeks nothing, it only allows. It is up to concsiousness to do the rest. Do you catch my drift Bagua? Need I say more?
Smiles away,
FajinHi Fajin;
Nice to hear from my old friend.
Faj
You are correct in saying that we cannot comprehend the Dao and why it chose to
manifest itself as Wu Ji which eventually gave rise to all things.
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Well my understanding is out of Wu Ji comes Dao, in only Wu Ji there is no way to speak of, no form to label, no words at all.Faj
If we look at Wu Ji as creating the potentiality of the universe, then we know the intent of Dao or God as I like to call it, or may it be the “isness” because it simply is, or simply exists. It means that Dao has created the potential for all matter and all things. It is up to us as to what to do with this potential.
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Well for me Wu Ji creates all this, the Dao is all this working, it is the matrix for it all, in all its forms and patterns and non-patterns. Dao is the vehicle to our true nature.Faj
Think of it as a stem cell that has the potential to become any cell in the body, or a tachyon/neutrino that can become any frequency in the universe. It is pure potential! Wu Ji gave rise to that potential
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okShen concsiousness had the choice of doing with it as it pleased through intent.
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Now you pop this in out of nowhere. Who cretes this shen consciousness, how did it manifest, Wu Ji/Dao has nothing to do with it?Faj
So, the reason for the isness or God/Dao, whatever the hell you call it, to create that potential is the mystery. WHY DID IT DO THIS??? Does it seek benefit? I don’t think so. I think that God doesn’t seek for anything at all, it just gives formless form which ALLOWS us to seek benfit from it as observation techniques posted by Max, ALLOW us to obtain benefit from them, which is why we do them. Of course, as Michael and I agree, emptiness is the opposite of intent.
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Well here is where we differ.
I do not separate dao for shen, or Dao from consiousness. Self-realization is experiencing Dao and you are one, not two. It was always this way.Very important:
Emptiness is a word to explain a state of awarenss or consiousness, it is a way to experience life at it is, to experience dao as it is, it is weu wei. It is emptiness in the sense the mind is not attached to false identity and allows one to experience life in its spontaniety, in its variety, in all its aspects.
Believe me faj, it takes lots of intention and will to cultivate and acheive emptiness. Emptiness is the fruit, pratice is the method. Hopefully we can get over this once and for all.
Faj
If we then complare emptiness to Wu Ji and shen/concsiousness to intent than it is shen/concsiosness that seeks benefit and Wu Ji that seeks nothing, it only allows. It is up to concsiousness to do the rest. Do you catch my drift Bagua? Need I say more?
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Shen/consiousness is not something that was willed into existence by individual shen, it is created by wu ji—dao, you cannot shut off your consciousness. We will ulitmately seek nothing, as we will know our inseparable realation with Wu Ji/Dao, creator and creation are one. The vibration or Qi Field at this level requires refinement, this is what our cultivation does, allowing our jing/qi/shen as one unit to realize and live from this space or qi field.Faj
Smiles away,
Fajin
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Smiles always,
baguaBagua: Very important:
Emptiness is a word to explain a state of awarenss or consiousness, it is a way to experience life at it is, to experience dao as it is, it is weu wei. It is emptiness in the sense the mind is not attached to false identity and allows one to experience life in its spontaniety, in its variety, in all its aspects.
————-This is a good Daoist definition of emptiness, as it emphasizes the UTILITY of emptiness rather than it being an absolute state. Merging with the wheel of Life, rather than getting off it.
But it is not the traditional Buddhist definition of emptiness, which seems to have it origin in assuring people that they could permanently escape all suffering, that if they joined the club their soul would be saved from further incarnation which equals suffering in their defintion.
This belief in Supreme Emptiness denies there is any self to enjoy this illusory life and is publicly avowed to getting everyone off the wheel of incarnation rather than enjoying it from the Empty center of the wheel.
It views the ultimate underlying attachment as “desire to incarnate”, i.e. that humans are attached to being embodied humans and need to give it up if they want to be free of karmic conditioning. Their definitions of virtue and acts of compassion are all defined by this need to help people get off the wheel.
This whole discussion goes around endlessly because of some simple overlooked issues regarding the origins and reality of soul completion.
m
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ps., bagua, your email has been bouncing for the last week. check your spam filters or server.Hello Bagua,
It is nice to hear your personal theory based on your Chan experience again.
>>Well my understanding is out of Wu Ji comes Dao, in only Wu Ji there is no way to speak of, no form to label, no words at all.<>Well for me Wu Ji creates all this, the Dao is all this working, it is the matrix for it all, in all its forms and patterns and non-patterns. Dao is the vehicle to our true nature.<<
*If we say Dao has come out of Wu Ji, than emptiness preceded intent. So, you are using intent to reach emptiness once again. Wu-wei. I describe wu-wei as following Dao. If we say creator is Wu Ji and creation is Dao, then we must not go back to the creator, there is a reason for creation to arise out of creator. We are separate from it.
I don't understand why Wu Ji would create unlimited potential for the reason of being one. If it created unlimited potential, then it is already separate. I don't understand how you say they are one. Please clarify.
It isn't needed to continue the rest of what you said, these are the two big ones that separate our paths. I would like to go more in depth on this. Creator and creation, emptiness and intent.
Smiles away,
FajinHi fajin:
Faj
It is nice to hear your personal theory based on your Chan experience again.
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My views are not limited to Chan, they are based on everything I have learned and experienced. I speak from my experience, free from a system that I must depend. Im not selling anything, I have no pony in this race.Faj
>>Well my understanding is out of Wu Ji comes Dao, in only Wu Ji there is no way to speak of, no form to label, no words at all.<<*This is the big one. It simulates your Chan experience as you cannot label it or describe it, except as wu-wei. I know it takes intent to reach the state of emptiness you speak of. But seeking it as an absolute goal is not following Dao. What reason did Wu Ji have for creation? What made it do that?
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Well you are beyond me if you can explain all the mysteryies of life, I call you my sifu.Faj
*If we say Dao has come out of Wu Ji, than emptiness preceded intent. So, you are using intent to reach emptiness once again. Wu-wei. I describe wu-wei as following Dao. If we say creator is Wu Ji and creation is Dao, then we must not go back to the creator, there is a reason for creation to arise out of creator. We are separate from it.
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You say that, I do not.We are never separate from creator, not sure what I can do to help you understand this, both in theory and direct experience. In time you will, i can sense this.
Faj
I don't understand why Wu Ji would create unlimited potential for the reason of being one. If it created unlimited potential, then it is already separate. I don't understand how you say they are one. Please clarify.
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I dont mean to be argumentative, but you continually speak from a dual perspective. We are part of Dao, inseparable, you do not have unlimited potential, you live according to laws and patterns, you can not change to a tree, change to a dog, change to a women (well maybe), it is fantasy to beleive you can be anything in the universe, this is ego playing.Faj
I would like to go more in depth on this. Creator and creation, emptiness and intent.
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I dont view intent as the opposite as emptiness, this is your framework.Everything I have studied of Tao, is creator and creation are one; dao and all of life are one; only ego creates this separation. You meditation should reveal this, I'm suprised you have not.
The ancient tai chi diagram has a blank circle in the center, with dark and white colors on each side, this is saying Wu Ji is the center and is within the tai chi, wherever you go wu ji is there, the entire tai ji and all things in life are dao.
In a way Wu Ji is Chong Channel, of of Chong is yin-yang, du and ren. Only theory can say du and ren are separate, they are one channel and includes chong, they are begin in the same space. the three are one.
The ancient yin-yang pictogram is a hill, the shady and shiny side, it is one hill, different persectives of one hill, never two hills, one hill. One unvierse, one mind, one consciousness, one qi field, this is the true reality, all other views artifically break down the one into myriad things.
Smiles from my heart,
bagua——————————————————————————–
Bagua,
You have me very confused. Let me clear it up.
I know that we are one with Dao, but you imply we are one with Wu Ji, the creator. Singing Ocean is right, it is quite difficult to understand you sometimes Bagua. One moment you say one thing, the next moment you change it. Not trying to be offensive with that statement, but it is true. Are we one with Dao, Wu Ji, or both? What are we one with?
I agree that we are one with Dao and must abide to Dao, I have been saying this for the whole time, but the creator (Wu Ji) is apart from us. You say that the creator, which I agree is Wu Ji, is in the middle of the Taiji symbol, the line that attaches the black and white, yin and yang.
WRONG. This is yuan, the neutral space between this and that. Wu Ji precedes the Taiji, as Taiji came from it. Just as we have electrons, protons, we have neutrons which are yuan. This is not to be confused with emptiness as that is Wu Ji.
What I am trying to say is that we need to abide to Dao and disregard Wu Ji, that is what Michael means when in Chan you stop yin-yang movement. It is not Wu Ji which creates the yin-yang fluctutation, it is yuan. Wu Ji is creator, it is the emptiness that we speak of, it is what you use your intent to achieve Bagua. Rather, I use intent to abide wuxing and yin-yang to Dao to create harmony, not Wu Ji.
VERY IMPORTANT:
Bagua, the main difference between me and you I have figured out is that you DO NOT believe we are self-creation. We, as concsiousness, created ourselves. We know the self is the highest above anything else. Self-responsibility, self-sufficiency, self-awareness, these are all things that are individualized. We are apart from the Wu Ji, we decide our own fate.
If only you agreed with me that we created ourselves, than you would agree with me that we should not cultivate emptiness as that would mean that we are not self-creation and have no choice but to cultivate emptiness. But we are apart from Wu Ji. Spirit is eternal, meaining it did not have a beginning, how could it have been created from Wu Ji? It must have self-evolved out of the potential of Wu Ji when Wu Ji decided to create Taiji, spirit just continued its evolution. Do you not agree with me that spirit is eternal? I’m just interested in methods of cultivation to evolve the spirit further. Whatever helps it to do so is acceptable. This is self-evolution.
If everyone in the world simply adhered to there empty space and cultivated it like the way you speak of, what is the purpose of science? What is the purpose of studying the body’s chemistry (biochemistry)? Learning more about ourselves and nature scientifically, it wouldn’t be needed because we would learn all these things but they would be of no use because either way, because we’d just need to cultivate the empty space. I’m sure when science gets to that plateau and learns more about spirituality and knows about spirit in the higher dimensions as well as learning more about qi (bioelectricity) and its functions, we will learn scientific ways of cultivating ourselves.
This is spiritual science, but that would not be needed if everyone simply adhered to empty space. Surely, it just can’t be like that. That is certainly not man’s destiny. I hope you can understand what I am trying to say from this perspective.
Smiles away,
FajinMy definition: The Tao is the way of nature.
We must study how NATURE expresses itself and manifests itself in reality, and we must do the same in our bodies to learn our NATURE.
hello fajin:
Bagua,
fajin you say: “You have me very confused. Let me clear it up.” now this is very confusing to me.
Well this will be my last time on this subject, Wu Ji is our true nature, it is always with us.
Fajin
Are we one with Dao, Wu Ji, or both? What are we one with?
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Is your mother our parent or is it your father? Which one is it Fajin, YOU MUST PICK ONE, they can not both me your parent. This is what you are asking me.Dao is part of Wu Ji, there are inseparable. Yin-Yang are not two, they are one. Yin/Yang/Yuan are not three, they are one.
Fajin
I agree that we are one with Dao and must abide to Dao, I have been saying this for the whole time, but the creator (Wu Ji) is apart from us. You say that the creator, which I agree is Wu Ji, is in the middle of the Taiji symbol, the line that attaches the black and white, yin and yang.
WRONG. This is yuan, the neutral space between this and that. Wu Ji precedes the Taiji, as Taiji came from it. Just as we have electrons, protons, we have neutrons which are yuan. This is not to be confused with emptiness as that is Wu Ji.
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I told you the ancient pictogram, with the center as a blank circle, that is wu ji, I DID NOT SAY THE LINE IN THE MIDDLE, please, if you are going to qoute me be accurate.Wu Ji—Tai Ji— all things, they are one matrix, not separate, this is what separates taoism from much of western thought, there is no creator outside humanity.
Can you tell me a taoist text that teaches the creator is separate from humans?
Fajin
What I am trying to say is that we need to abide to Dao and disregard Wu Ji, that is what Michael means when in Chan you stop yin-yang movement. It is not Wu Ji which creates the yin-yang fluctutation, it is yuan. Wu Ji is creator, it is the emptiness that we speak of, it is what you use your intent to achieve Bagua. Rather, I use intent to abide wuxing and yin-yang to Dao to create harmony, not Wu Ji.
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Sorry fajin this can not be done. Chan does not stop yin-yang movement, why do you keep saying this, it experiences all patterns as they are, no more, no less. Please go meet a legimate chan master.Fajin
VERY IMPORTANT:
Bagua, the main difference between me and you I have figured out is that you DO NOT believe we are self-creation. We, as concsiousness, created ourselves. We know the self is the highest above anything else. Self-responsibility, self-sufficiency, self-awareness, these are all things that are individualized. We are apart from the Wu Ji, we decide our own fate.
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You are a God then, and when you meet the Wu Ji God, tell me what happens please.Fajin
But we are apart from Wu Ji. Spirit is eternal, meaining it did not have a beginning, how could it have been created from Wu Ji?
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are you serious?Fajin
If everyone in the world simply adhered to there empty space and cultivated it like the way you speak of, what is the purpose of science? What is the purpose of studying the body’s chemistry (biochemistry)? Learning more about ourselves and nature scientifically, it wouldn’t be needed because we would learn all these things but they would be of no use because either way, because we’d just need to cultivate the empty space. I’m sure when science gets to that plateau and learns more about spirituality and knows about spirit in the higher dimensions as well as learning more about qi (bioelectricity) and its functions, we will learn scientific ways of cultivating ourselves.
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Science may destroy this planet, at miminial posion it.Lets move on to another topic, we can pick this up in a few years, maybe I will catch up to you.
bagua
Hello Bagua,
You don’t have to continue with me anymore, it’s your choice, but please here what I have to offer.
>>Dao is part of Wu Ji, there are inseparable. Yin-Yang are not two, they are one. Yin/Yang/Yuan are not three, they are one.<>Can you tell me a taoist text that teaches the creator is separate from humans?<>Sorry fajin this can not be done. Chan does not stop yin-yang movement, why do you keep saying this, it experiences all patterns as they are, no more, no less. Please go meet a legimate chan master.<>You are a God then, and when you meet the Wu Ji God, tell me what happens please.<>Science may destroy this planet, at miminial posion it.
Lets move on to another topic, we can pick this up in a few years, maybe I will catch up to you.<<
*The science I speak of is spiritual science. You will see it when it comes, then you will agree with me. When we have fueless cars, anti-gravity devices, etc. it will catch up to you not me. I have spoke to an alien and I know it is true, you will see sooner than you think, my friend.
Which topic do you have in mind? Shoot.
All the best, from your old buddy,
Faj
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