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in this thread I asked about practices that develop vertical surrender in the dantian
http://forum.healingdao.com/practice/message/23637/Steven suggested inner smile and Iron Shirt postures without packing, just feeling the dantian and the space below.
some more questions, does pulling the anus/perinium up actually make the energy go up?
what about dantian qigong, does it bring energy up or surrender it down?
I have been practicing ‘standing in tree’, spinning the pearl in the preparation for the orbit, and having chi nei tsang done on me which is relaxing my belly.
I want to go “through” the pearl in the dantian and into what spiritual teacher anadi calls ‘the absolute’. I can post a chapter of his that talks about this if anyone is interested. his website is here: anaditeaching.com
Though not a Taoist, more influenced by zen and Sufism, Anadi’s work revolves around awakening the three dantians and integrating them, and he talks about the immortality of the individual Soul when linked to the eternal Beyond…I have had experiences of the “absolute”, and got there through a very focused and cutting/piercing energy in the dantian where i suddenly appeared on the ‘other side’. in zen they call it ‘when the bottom of the bucket fallls out’…it is a rare state and not really talked about in spiritual literature, I was also wondering whether there is something similar in Taoist practice…
Thank you
Dantian qigong is simply qi packing.
Squeezing in from all sides: up from perineum, and down from above.
Similar to connecting a bicycle pump to a tire, and pumping against an “already full tire” . . . except that rather than pumping in air with pressure (which would be uncomfortable, and lead to antacids or gas relievers), you are pumping in qi (which is instead energizing). You compress qi/energy into the space. This not only increases your vitality from your center, but it also surrounds and cushions all of your internal organs in the abdominal area in a blanket of qi.As to the other issue you mentioned, there are practices in the Kan & Li formulas where you transition, or “peak”, into the prenatal world–the formless realm from which you are birthed. One practice for instance even at the Lesser Kan & Li level (of Michael’s coursework) involves taking the pearl (which is really *YOU*) into the deep void space in your dantian which leads back into the prenatal. In the higher level formulas, there are other practices that do similar such things from a different perspective. However, outside of mentioning this, I’d personally prefer not to try to filter the teachings of outside traditions. To me, to answer such a question fully (I feel) would mean deeply exploring these other traditions to get a real understanding of what they are talking about, and how it might relate. And, for me, I already feel that the Healing Tao coursework is quite vast and limitless, so I don’t have much passion to investigate outside sources (sorry). Maybe someone else (e.g. c howdy) will feel inspired to investigate. 😉
Best wishes,
Steven“Proclus tells us that ‘in the most holy of mysteries, before the god appears, certain terrestrial [i.e. chthonic] daemons present themselves, and fights which disturb those who are to be initiated, tear them away from undefiled goods, and call forth their attention to matter.’ The daimons here distract us from the higher symbolic purpose of initiation and redirect our attention back to the physical or, better, the literal world. Clearly these daimons are among Plutarch’s terrors, for ‘the gods exhort us not to look at these, till we are fortified by the powers which the mysteries confer. For thus they speak: it is not proper for you to behold them till your body is initiated.'”
“Like initiates into the Mysteries… all shamans stress the terror of initiation, including even the encounters with their helping or tutelary spirits, who can appear fearsome. But, as an Australian shaman advised, power can be gained from the spirits as long as we are not intimidated into panicking. There is no indication, in other words, that fear and pain are bad or wrong, as modern secular ideologies and psychotherapies tend to suggest. Dreams are full of fear and pain. So are myths. So are religions.”
-PATRIC HARPUR, Daimonic Reality: A Field Guide to the OtherworldI was born in Poland, a place which I perceived as grey, sad and very unsupportive to my soul. My soul deeply resisted birth into this plane of unconsciousness, insensitivity and ignorance. I was born into suffering; I was deeply depressed and felt completely alienated both from my original home and the unreal, dream-like world around me. Even as a small child, I knew that something of great value had been taken away from me, that I had been forced to forget something of tremendous significance. I was totally and utterly lost.
-http://anaditeaching.wordpress.com/journey-to-wholeness-an-autobiography-of-anadi/which postures are better for developing a relaxed belly?
-http://forum.healingdao.com/practice/message/23767/One can every now and then find remarks about Buddhist tantric mandalas that these are not of any use, but it seems that it’s not necessarily so. But it seems that the main key for their use is mostly lost.
Like it would be so that one would need to teach one’s system at very different levels to mechanically process energy in different ways.
So not only mula, but also uddiyana and jalandhara bandhas.
Also these visualizations seem to be extremely important for being able to scale down.
I also find that it’s useful to try to find some extra time to study different systems.
I personally would take enough Indian hatha yoga techniques (nauli, khechari etc.)if one still is able to function reasonably with one’s surroundings, because these take time to master and seem to be very important for more advanced practice especially.
HOWDY
>>>which postures are better for developing a relaxed belly?
>>>-http://forum.healingdao.com/practice/message/23767/The question here had to do with standing practice, and this is not really the right avenue for “developing a relaxed belly”. So asking which one (QF4 standing, or Iron Shirt standing) is better is kind of like asking “if drinking water, which is better: a knife or a fork?” . . . So it’s not really the right tool for the job, in my opinion. There are other practices that are more geared for this kind of development . . . the most natural ones I feel would be ones that involve relaxed qigong supported by natural breathing. Ocean Breathing (QF1) is probably the one the stands out the most in my mind; second most helpful in my opinion would probably be Deep Earth Pulsing (QF3).
>>>I also find that it’s useful to try to find
>>>some extra time to study different systems.Great if you have that kind of time.
I however find that daily living already takes up so much time with just “maintenance activities”, that the little time I have left I want to invest fully into my Healing Tao practices . . . because without sufficient regular practice and investment of time, you can’t get really deep.S
I understand that the pearl is ME, in anadi’s system the hara houses both the absolute, which would be the prenatal realm you mentioned, and the being aspect of pure me of the soul (“being” in his teaching being related to dantian)
interesting that there is this prenatal deep dark void space in Healing Tao as well….
I haven’t really researched different systems that much in relation to this, but I don’t think you’d find much…..it hasn’t really been written about much in zen it seems which may be the only tradition that mentions it in certain koans….
I’ll post something anadi wrote about it later on that may be of interest, a short read… maybe it will at least be interesting to see how the concepts or experiences relate…
so would dantian qigong or creating a relaxed belly through ocean breathing or nauli (have done some of that, c_howdy), be in any way related to developing the pearl, the personal identity aspect of the hara? does dantian qigong relax the belly or pack more vital force into it? anadi says that when the personal aspect is strong it may be more difficult to surrender, but when it does, the surrender is deeper….he also talks about having a relaxed belly so you can rest deeper in “being”……
as i see from your posts, when i asked about vertical surrender you mentioned standing postures but when i asked about relaxed bellies you said it’s something different, that using standing postures to do that would be like using a fork to drink water… do you see relaxing the belly as different from the pearl? please clarify just a bit, i am getting confused about the different ends of each practice…Thank you
sorry, meant to write “does dantian qigong relax the belly or simply pack more vital force into it? also, by packing more vital force, does it strengthen the pearl?”
forgot to mention, in modern teachings the Diamond approach teachings by a.h. almaas and the diamond logos by Faisal Muqqadim (sp?) (both related) also mention “the absolute” as the deep dark divine feminine, but do not talk about a specific location, only that it can also be experienced in the belly……
I don’t know what you mean by “relax the belly”.
If by “relax the belly”, you mean strengthen the fascial support between the organs and cushion them, then the answer is YES.
If by “relax the belly”, you mean remove muscular tension and the emotional holding of anxiety, I would say NO. (at least not directly).You don’t work with the pearl directly in Dantian Qigong.
It is really just a qi packing technique only.
Having more qi in the dantian, from having done Dantian Qigong, will strengthen the pearl when you work with it, but you are not focusing on the pearl when you do Dantian Qigong. It is not really the purpose of the practice, imho.S
When I hear someone say “relaxed belly”, I think about the muscular tension of holding and the emotional holding of anxiety / tightness in the abdominal area. This was my previous comment about Ocean Breathing and Deep Earth Pulsing being the best tools.
Well here one should see that those more advanced practices one can really access when all earlier preparations are fully established and can be retained even when these are not so actively (in separation) practiced.
Anyway though for example Yang Jwing Ming’s presentation (Qigong-Secret of Youth) about belly massaging is quite interesting it cannot compared with what M. Chia offers.
But here one would need to see how important seemingly it has been according to some teachings to spend hours and hours every day massaging abdominal are during certain phase of the training.
HOWDY
Whether one is doing CNT on oneself, receiving CNT from a CNT practitioner, or doing other forms of abdominal self-massage, these are also very beneficial for releasing tension in the abdominal area. I neglected to mention this earlier. Thx . . . S
The basic nova technique is very simple: Always create as many insoluble conflicts as possible and always aggravate existing conflicts-This is done by dumping on the same planet life forms with incompatible conditions of existence-There is of course nothing “wrong” about any given life form since “wrong” only has reference to conflicts with other life forms-The point is these life forms should not be on the same planet-Their conditions of life are basically incompatible in present time form and it is precisely the work of the nova mob to see that they remain in present time form, to create and aggravate the conflicts that lead to the explosion of a planet, that is to nova-
-WILLIAM S. BURROUGHS, The Ticket That ExplodedThe enteric nervous system (ENS) or intrinsic nervous system is one of the main divisions of the autonomic nervous system and consists of a mesh-like system of neurons that governs the function of the gastrointestinal system.
-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enteric_nervous_systemThe Ticket That Exploded continues the adventures of Agent Lee in his mission to investigate and subvert the methods of mind control being used by The Nova Mob, a gang of intergalactic criminals intent on destroying Earth.
-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ticket_That_ExplodedYes, but it seems that this abdominal massage is not only for relaxation or detoxification, but extremely important prerequisite for these YI JIN CHING & XI SUI CHING practices.
HOWDY
One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest (1962) is a novel written by Ken Kesey. Set in an Oregon psychiatric hospital, the narrative serves as a study of the institutional processes and the human mind as well as a critique of behaviorism and a celebration of humanistic principles.
-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Flew_Over_the_Cuckoo%27s_Nest_(novel)The enteric nervous system has been described as a “second brain” for several reasons. The enteric nervous system can operate autonomously. It normally communicates with the central nervous system (CNS) through the parasympathetic (e.g., via the vagus nerve) and sympathetic (e.g., via the prevertebral ganglia) nervous systems. However, vertebrate studies show that when the vagus nerve is severed, the enteric nervous system continues to function.
In vertebrates the enteric nervous system includes efferent neurons, afferent neurons, and interneurons, all of which make the enteric nervous system capable of carrying reflexes and acting as an integrating center in the absence of CNS input. The sensory neurons report on mechanical and chemical conditions. Through intestinal muscles, the motor neurons control peristalsis and churning of intestinal contents. Other neurons control the secretion of enzymes. The enteric nervous system also makes use of more than 30 neurotransmitters, most of which are identical to the ones found in CNS, such as acetylcholine, dopamine, and serotonin. More than 90% of the body’s serotonin lies in the gut, as well as about 50% of the body’s dopamine, which is currently being studied to further our understanding of its utility in the brain.
The enteric nervous system has the capacity to alter its response depending on such factors as bulk and nutrient composition.[citation needed] In addition, ENS contains support cells which are similar to astroglia of the brain and a diffusion barrier around the capillaries surrounding ganglia which is similar to the bloodbrain barrier of cerebral blood vessels.
-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enteric_nervous_systemUranian Willy the Heavy Metal Kid, also know as Willy the Rat-he wised up the marks.
“This is war to extermination-Fight cell by cell through bodies and mind screens of the earth-Souls rotten from the Orgasm Drug-Flesh shuddering from the Ovens-Prisoners of the Earth, come out-Storm the studio.”
-WILLIAM S. BURROUGHS, The Soft MachineI have impression that M. Chia has made very wise choice to have some anatomy and physiology in his treatises, because in these conditions it’s good to have also some of those also in my opinion. Even when it’s learned only from the books unlike those who are real students or professionals of such things. Real practititoners of course should and will develop special sensitivy and perceptions that other way.
Problem with these Taoist practices is that already Inner Smile, Six Healing Sounds etc. are practices which hardly anybody understands, why one is doing things like that, in the beginning.
For this reason it would be in my opinion useful to have that BASIC PRACTICES OF THE UNIVERSAL HEALING TAO-AN ILLUSTRATED GUIDE TO LEVELS 1 THROUGH SIX book.It gives good overview, I have impression, what M. Chia and at least some UHT instructors teach.
HOWDY
Ps. Sorry for my brokken English.
Jani had always been different. Precociously intelligent, she knew the alphabet by 13 months and, at a year and a half, spoke in grammatically correct sentences. By three, she was quizzing her parents on the Periodic Table. At four, tests revealed an IQ of 146 and an estimated mental age of between 10 and 11. She required constant stimulation and had few friends, preferring the company of a cast of imaginary rats, cats, dogs and little girls. She also hated to be called by her real name, insisting on nicknames such as Blue-Eyed Tree Frog or Rainbow.
-http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/children_shealth/9828583/We-did-not-know-that-our-schizophrenic-daughter-January-Schofields-imaginary-friends-were-hallucinations.htmlAbstract;Autonomic dystonia is one of the psychosomatic diseases, characterized by unstable multi-organic complaints, abnormal function of the autonomic nervous system, and is affected by psychological events. It is considered to be identical with somatoform autonomic dysfunction in ICD-10 (F 45.3). Many physicians and researchers both Occidental and Oriental, have taken a great interest in this disease, including Eppinger & Hess, Bergmann, Okinaka, Abe and others. The Autogenic Training one of the the most important therapies of psychosomatic disease, was established by Schultz & Luthe and introduced to Japan by Ikemi and Sasaki. “Zen” in Buddhism provides a efficacious treatment for the allied dysfunction so called “Zen disease”. In 1711, Buddhist Hakuin was suffered from Zen disease. He used three techniques of “Naikan-ho”, “Nanso-noho” and “ana-pana-sati” (Buddha’s breathing). He lay in supine position, relaxed the upper half of the body, energized the lower half of it, breathed a slow and calm breath, and had the image that warm creamy fluid flew slowly in the whole body. Repeating this again and again every day, he finally recovered from the disease. There are somethings in common between the “Hakuin’s Zen” method and the Autogenic Training. I would like to emphasize that the traditional “Hakuin’s Zen” method should be reappraised and applied to treating autonomic dystonia and stress-related ilness as well as to promoting health.
-http://sciencelinks.jp/j-east/article/200217/000020021702A0504936.phpI haven’t really researched different systems that much in relation to this, but I don’t think you’d find much…..it hasn’t really been written about much in zen it seems which may be the only tradition that mentions it in certain koans….
-http://forum.healingdao.com/practice/message/23970/Though not a Taoist, more influenced by zen and Sufism, Anadi’s work revolves around awakening the three dantians and integrating them, and he talks about the immortality of the individual Soul when linked to the eternal Beyond…
-http://forum.healingdao.com/practice/message/23960/There is quite dire warnings by M. Chia about certain things (in general it’s about kundalini psychosis) in his ‘Healing Light of the Tao: Foundational Practices to Awaken Chi Energy.’ Also this Hakuin Zenji (or Ekaku) is mentioned when unbalanced practices are mentioned.
So it would seem that most of these Zen lineages are not necessarily occupied with healthy practices. So to cure his “zen disease” Hakuin Zenji had to find Daoist adept.
He is not (first of all according to his own testimonies) in Buddhist terms very advanced practitioner.
Walking in the rain and getting “illuminations” is not getting enlightened.
HOWDY
Ps. There are of course very different kinds of Sufi lineages also, but most interesting ones seemingly would be those which have learned enough yogic things from Indian (Hindu) practitioners. Here again also zen is quite poor if you compare for example Zen koans to Patanjali’s yoga sutras.
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