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It seems to me that you think we can only argue about the topic which is not my intention at all. In the context of the conversation, “Good luck” reads to me more like an terse send-off with a strong touch of distaste or even condesention. So I asked you what you meant. Without any talk about things, it looks to me like my impassioned words just simply make you turn off instead of being a ground for discussion of the ideas involved. I’m sorry I bug you so much. Thanks for your thoughts.
Blessings, AlexanderAlexander…
Firstly, you don’t bug me ‘cos if you did, I wouldn’t even talk to you to start with.
Secondly, even if you did bug me, why be sorry about it? Not everyone is destined to get along. But, I reiterate, you don’t bug me.
Thirdly, I didn’t think we had an argument. I didn’t miss your point – I completely got your point and I said I didn’t agree and gave my reasons. My personal philosophy on time and energy: If I know saying something isn’t going to change anything for that person because they really believe what they believe, then I don’t see much point in spending that time or using that energy. Smile and let the person go on their way. You truly believe with passion all of those things that you said, and that is absolutely fine. I don’t agree – that is all it comes down to. Nothing says I am right and nothing says you are right – our points of view are simply different. There really isn’t anything too personal about a difference of opinion 🙂
OK now?
Keep cool 🙂
Emelgee
I’m not sure what the sincere question was, but I’ll try and answer as best I can.
There is an infinite God and there is finite man. Except for Earth, the universe may be devoid of life.
This beleif is not arrogance, but humility. God is infinite. He has no beginning and no end. Man is but a speck compared to God. If God wanted to create a near infinite universe devoid of life, why should I complain? Maybe he’s trying to teach us a lesson through an empty universe.
Idolotrous? No. I worship God, not life. A near infinite number of planets is still just a number and nothing compared to God. Things are insignificant.
Improbable? What does probability have to do with matters of faith? Complaining that God wasted resources creating such a huge universe with life on only one planet strikes me as very very funny.
I believe in the Triune God. There is One Father, One Son, and One Holy Spirit. Asking that I change my beleif to more than one Son is silly.
I find it idolotrous that someone would try to explain and reshape God using human reasoning. I find it improbable that God can be understood using human reasoning as well.
I’m not sure what this has to do with the Tao though…
The point is not that something is possible,
the question is why would you possibly believe such a thing?
worse yet, why would forced belief/confession be of any importance to the creator of the universe?
when you believe something you think it is true..
why wold you possibly think such an absurd premise is true?
i am sincerely asking, why do you think such a thing is true?
“Why would you possibly believe such a thing?”
First, I was raised in a Christian household. The God of my father is my God.
Second, I have felt his presence in a way that is real, but impossible to explain.
Third, I have faith. I believe without seeing. I don’t need logic or proof. There are mysteries in the Christian faith that I will never fully comprehend. This does not trouble me.
“Why would forced belief/confession be of any importance to the creator of the universe?”
Forced belief is no belief at all. God is able to see into our hearts. Parents that force a confession from their children are fooling no one.
“why would you possibly think such an absurd premise is true?”
I’m not sure what the absurd premise is… But I believe the Bible is the inspired word of God. I believe we are saved by grace, through faith, for works. By grace, because salvation is something that is freely given that we do not deserve. Through faith, because belief in Jesus is all that is required. For works, because our works are a natural product of our salvation.
You seem to be stuck on the size of the universe. What’s so special about a few billion planets? What’s so special about life? Life in and of itself is just a biological process.
“First, I was raised in a Christian household. The God of my father is my God.”
—–> so this dictates your cosmology? atheists grow up to be athiests because their parents were? we don’t have a free neuron here? I was raised by very Christian parents but I never believed a word of it, from day one.. it was just like Santa Clause which I also never believed in…
“Second, I have felt his presence in a way that is real, but impossible to explain”
—–> well that’s fine and there may very well be something supernatural about the whole thing, but an ability to convey and discuss it would go a long way.. furthermore having a mystic experience and translating a mystic experience into something as improbable as “our king is the only son of god in the whole cosmos and without him everyone goes to hell” are two different things..
“Third, I have faith. I believe without seeing. I don’t need logic or proof. There are mysteries in the Christian faith that I will never fully comprehend. This does not trouble me.”
—–> what kind of feeling can be translated into such an extremely improbable declaration? what kind of experience can lead to faith in something so unlikely?
“Forced belief is no belief at all. God is able to see into our hearts. Parents that force a confession from their children are fooling no one.”
—–> then whats all the “you’re going to hell if you don’t confess it” stuff about?
“I’m not sure what the absurd premise is… But I believe the Bible is the inspired word of God. I believe we are saved by grace, through faith, for works. By grace, because salvation is something that is freely given that we do not deserve. Through faith, because belief in Jesus is all that is required. For works, because our works are a natural product of our salvation.”
how much more absurd could a premise get? love is one thing..
try putting yourself in an opposing viewpoint..you are a species from somewhere in Arcturus that lands on Earth..you’ve lived just on your planet with your philosophies, arts, and humanities prior to landning on Earth in much the same way that people on Earth lived just fine with their philosophies and humanities like Hinduism, Buddhism, the Greek Mysteries, Taoism, etc on Earth prior to a Jew in Jerusalem’s historical record..
just like billions of other species across the cosmos..
you are told that on this planet the inhabitants think that the creator of the universe incarnated as a man who was a king and that without his sacrifice on their planet everyone in the universe is going to hell forever at death..
hmm..
what about all the people who lived loving wonderful lives before their God Kins’ birth? what about all the people who doubt such a thing?
what about the natives who insist that you must declare your beleif in their now departed God King in order to not be damned forever?
“You seem to be stuck on the size of the universe. What’s so special about a few billion planets? What’s so special about life? Life in and of itself is just a biological process.”
what about probability in the context of greek and roman myth making all ready rampant around the mediterranean prior to A Jew in Jerusalem?
i re-typed the end of this:
“First, I was raised in a Christian household. The God of my father is my God.”
—–> so this dictates your cosmology? atheists grow up to be athiests because their parents were? we don’t have a free neuron here? I was raised by very Christian parents but I never believed a word of it, from day one.. it was just like Santa Clause which I also never believed in…
“Second, I have felt his presence in a way that is real, but impossible to explain”
—–> well that’s fine and there may very well be something supernatural about the whole thing, but an ability to convey and discuss it would go a long way.. furthermore having a mystic experience and translating a mystic experience into something as improbable as “our king is the only son of god in the whole cosmos and without him everyone goes to hell” are two different things..
“Third, I have faith. I believe without seeing. I don’t need logic or proof. There are mysteries in the Christian faith that I will never fully comprehend. This does not trouble me.”
—–> what kind of feeling can be translated into such an extremely improbable declaration? what kind of experience can lead to faith in something so unlikely?
“Forced belief is no belief at all. God is able to see into our hearts. Parents that force a confession from their children are fooling no one.”
—–> then whats all the “you’re going to hell if you don’t confess it” stuff about?
“I’m not sure what the absurd premise is… But I believe the Bible is the inspired word of God. I believe we are saved by grace, through faith, for works. By grace, because salvation is something that is freely given that we do not deserve. Through faith, because belief in Jesus is all that is required. For works, because our works are a natural product of our salvation.”
—-> how much more absurd could a premise get? love is one thing..try putting yourself in an opposing viewpoint..
you are a species from somewhere in Arcturus that lands on Earth..you’ve lived on your planet (I should add here as part of a network of intergalactic civilizations) with your philosophies, arts, and humanities prior to landing on Earth in much the same way that people on Earth lived just fine with their philosophies and humanities like Hinduism, Buddhism, the Greek Mysteries, Taoism, etc on Earth prior to a Jew in Jerusalem’s historical record..
just like billions of other species across the cosmos..
you are told that on this planet the inhabitants think that the creator of the universe incarnated as a man who was a king and that without his sacrifice on their planet everyone in the universe is going to hell forever at death..
hmm..
what about all the people who lived loving wonderful lives before their God Kins’ birth? what about all the people who doubt such a thing?
what about the natives who insist that you must declare your beleif in their now departed God King in order to not be damned forever?
“You seem to be stuck on the size of the universe. What’s so special about a few billion planets? What’s so special about life? Life in and of itself is just a biological process.”
—–> what about probability in the context of greek and roman myth making all ready rampant around the mediterranean prior to “A Jew in Jerusalem”?
THis is from on down the list pulled up here to the front..
it’s a response to someone who claims to believe the common Jesus story:
i re-typed the end of this:
“First, I was raised in a Christian household. The God of my father is my God.”
—–> so this dictates your cosmology? atheists grow up to be athiests because their parents were? we don’t have a free neuron here? I was raised by very Christian parents but I never believed a word of it, from day one.. it was just like Santa Clause which I also never believed in…
“Second, I have felt his presence in a way that is real, but impossible to explain”
—–> well that’s fine and there may very well be something supernatural about the whole thing, but an ability to convey and discuss it would go a long way.. furthermore having a mystic experience and translating a mystic experience into something as improbable as “our king is the only son of god in the whole cosmos and without him everyone goes to hell” are two different things..
“Third, I have faith. I believe without seeing. I don’t need logic or proof. There are mysteries in the Christian faith that I will never fully comprehend. This does not trouble me.”
—–> what kind of feeling can be translated into such an extremely improbable declaration? what kind of experience can lead to faith in something so unlikely?
“Forced belief is no belief at all. God is able to see into our hearts. Parents that force a confession from their children are fooling no one.”
—–> then whats all the “you’re going to hell if you don’t confess it” stuff about?
“I’m not sure what the absurd premise is… But I believe the Bible is the inspired word of God. I believe we are saved by grace, through faith, for works. By grace, because salvation is something that is freely given that we do not deserve. Through faith, because belief in Jesus is all that is required. For works, because our works are a natural product of our salvation.”
—-> how much more absurd could a premise get? love is one thing..try putting yourself in an opposing viewpoint..
you are a species from somewhere in Arcturus that lands on Earth..you’ve lived on your planet (I should add here as part of a network of intergalactic civilizations) with your philosophies, arts, and humanities prior to landing on Earth in much the same way that people on Earth lived just fine with their philosophies and humanities like Hinduism, Buddhism, the Greek Mysteries, Taoism, etc on Earth prior to a Jew in Jerusalem’s historical record..
just like billions of other species across the cosmos..
you are told that on this planet the inhabitants think that the creator of the universe incarnated as a man who was a king and that without his sacrifice on their planet everyone in the universe is going to hell forever at death..
hmm..
what about all the people who lived loving wonderful lives before their God Kins’ birth? what about all the people who doubt such a thing?
what about the natives who insist that you must declare your beleif in their now departed God King in order to not be damned forever?
“You seem to be stuck on the size of the universe. What’s so special about a few billion planets? What’s so special about life? Life in and of itself is just a biological process.”
—–> what about probability in the context of greek and roman myth making all ready rampant around the mediterranean prior to “A Jew in Jerusalem”?
Science and faith have nothing in common. Science is knowledge based on observation, while faith is unquestioning belief. If I had proof that my God existed exactly as I believe, I wouldn’t require faith. I believe that faith is essential not only to my religion, but spirituality in general.
How did I come to this faith? I can only answer for myself. My answer will never suffice for you. I’ve listed the factors for me, but they are not universal.
If intelligence existed somewhere else in the universe, then science might affect my faith, but a thought experiment about the possibility of aliens just doesn’t cut it.
But again and again you come back to probability and reasoning. Sometimes you just have to pick something and stick with it. Every belief we have affects our lives and those around us. The journey and the now is what is important. You can question and reason and ponder the extent to which faith will affect your life until your dead, but that won’t start your spiritual growth.
Spirituality is an important part of any man’s life. You can neglect this aspect of your life, or you can embrace it and start the path. Christianity is a noble path filled with enlightenment and joy. This is the path that I have chosen. I wish you all the best with your chosen spiritual path.
Yes, but as I have asked you time and time again
(and being very open minded about things, including hyperdimensional avatars and so forth)
why do you “believe”?
this is not the same sentence as
“why do you have faith?”
belief means you personally are convinced of the truth of something..
faith means something more like placing hope in something..
i have neither of these in standard chrisitanity, although I do think there is great redemptive magick in it..
I think there was truth and fiction and the two were mixxed horribly..
I have absolutely no reaosn to believe that Jesus is the “Only” Begotten Son of God nor do I have any reason to believe that eeryone would be going to hell without his death..
thereofre I have faith in neither..
although I do think his teachings can lead to a peaceful passage through the afterlife
Faith is not hope. Faith is unquestioning belief.
Why do I believe in Jesus? I believe because I have decided to believe. Or put another way, I’ve suspended my disbelief. I do not question my belief, hence faith.
Why did I decide to believe? That’s a personal question, but if you’re interested.
I was raise non-denomination Christian. Both of my parents are ordained ministers. I never really knew if I believed in Jesus. After college, I stopped going to church. I was interested in ethics, morals and spirituality. I learned that it was important to share faith in a family. When parents share a common faith, the children are more likely to have a spiritual life. I wanted a family and I wanted a spiritual life for my children.
I met my wife to be. She was a Christian. Her family belonged to the Lutheran Church – Missouri Synod. The LCMS is a synod: a group that walks in faith and shares the same beliefs. The LCMS was important to her and her family. I decided it would be good for my family if I became a member of the LCMS.
I learned about the LCMS. I had one sticking point of reason that my intellectual mind couldn’t get over. I struggled with that sticking point for months. I was finally able to accept and come to terms with the stance of the LCMS and I decided to have faith.
My faith is not shallow and for show. It was a conscious choice to stop questioning. A leap of faith. I accept certain things to be true because I decided to accept them as true. Not sure what else I can tell you…
there is no observation without presumption
the set of presumptions defines bias
science is a religion
more correctly, it is a religious secton the other hand some sect are very ungrounded
and have their faith out of eternal presentI really am enjoying our conversation and no ill spirit is intended, i am just seeking to understand people…
to me faith means this:
if you think somone will be able to achieve something phenomenol because of their incredible faculties, then you will have faith in them..
this often coincides with hope because these things we have faith in often fill us with hope, a promise of something good we dream of, we have faith that it is possible, and this fills use with hope..
we hope that these things will come true and we have faith that they will..
that is what those things mean to me..
belief does not mean “pretend it’s true”
it means you think it IS true..
if a child believes Sant is some separate physical entity that comes down the chimney and in fact it’s Dad who never came down the chimney at all, they believed it.. and were wrong..
however if someone comes and tells you that this incredible thing is true and somehow it’s presence alone brings healing, magick, light, love, whatever, and they say “believe it even if it is beyond belief”..because the book is glowing and raidiating cosmic love waves or something
well that’s something different..they’re saying beleieve it despite it’s increbile nature
your use of the word belief disturbs me severely..
if you said “i am placing faith in the truth of it despite it’s unbelievability”.. then I would go well, that’s you, I am not..
i don’t think it’s true and I am not placing faith in the truth of what i see as a non truth..
i don’t believe it… then your definition of belief would mean me saying:
well hmm i don’t think it’s true at all, BUT, i’ll just turn off all my personal thoughts and accept it as truth despite all rational thought..
then if someone asked me if I believe it, what would I say?
no, i unquestionaly accepted it as truth despite it’s total non rationality and lack of proof..
i am having faith in it even thought it does sound so extraordinary..
now if I had 15 mystic experiences where light poured out of holy books and lightning crashed while booming voices spoke holy truths then I might believe it, or at least accept is as possible..
that’s why I asked “why do you believe it to be true?”
this gets down to what are YOU really saying when you say you believe it..
You’re saying “i unquestiobably accept it as truth despite all odds”
for some reason..
i basically think it’s a mythic metaphor for how great love and peace are and how we should avoid war and evil demon realms
but this is all avoiding the issue of
DO —> YOU <— really think its true?
I don't. I cannot say i BELIEVE it.. IN your shoes I could only say "I am placing total faith in it despite it's non believeability..
I would have to have a REALLy good reaosn to do that.. it's just too improbable in a universe of so many galaxies and star systems…
If an Islamic person comes to me and says "Jesus was a normal man just likie Mohammed and saying he was the ONLY true GOD KING is blasphemy..
well, I think that's more true, but I don't even use the word belief anymore because of stuff like this…
“I’ve suspended my disbelief. I do not question my belief, hence faith”
“It was a conscious choice to stop questioning. A leap of faith. I accept certain things to be true because I decided to accept them as true”
this just makes no sense..
if someone says the moon is made out of fudge and that as long as you believe that you will be OK..
despite the fact that you know the moons rocks and fudge bear next to nothing in common,
you decide to suspend all disbelief and accept as truth that the mooon is made of fudge..
you walk around thinking about how fudgy and wonderful the moon is all day..
is the moon made out of fudge? no..
WOuld you have said you believed it? i guess so..
Now a cosmic god king IS slightly more believeable..
you suspend questioniong, accept the book as truth, and have faith in it..
I simply cannot do that..
THere is no way that in a universe this massive that ONE god had ONE physical son and that everyone’s afterlife is dependednt upon his sacrifice or belief in his divinity..
the message is incredible..
perhaps he did exist and do all these things, but surely then even only as one of infinite GOD AVATARS on infinite worlds..
I can only find love in the message..
one sacrificed on one p[lanet does not bear much weight to me.. I think things would have been fine wihtout a crucifix through a message similar to Buddha ot Mohammed or COnfucious..
but please do tell, I am only trying to understand and communicate
“I’ve suspended my disbelief. I do not question my belief, hence faith.”
or in other words,
if someone said why did you do this, you would apparently say “I am trusting the book on it.. they said it’s true and I am going to trust them on it..I’ believ ein it based upon that trust..
well I can’t do that either.. a book is fallible.. translations crude.. corruption possible..
the story already backs this.. the Vulgate, the tribulations of King James, TYndale and persecution by the Roman church.. the fallibilities of Nicea..
there are just too many reasons not to trust the book..
If JESUS walks up and knockc me on the should I’ll really have to have a conversation with him about the vast cosmic ocean of star systems..
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