May 26, 2006 at 2:20 am #14436
wondering about this…
have been watching the barmy unfolding online and I was feeling quite upset to think that a board of people who I would consider to be “enlightened” could have a discussion that still could appear degenerate to such a degree of animosity.
So then I got to thinking about how my judgement about the people on this board had contributed to my disappointment (i.e. here I was thinking I was with a group of “enlightened” people (which made me feel enlightened!) – or people seeking it – and that this was somehow “better” than the average guy on a forum shooting off at the mouth)…so my judgement was the cause of my disappointment/anger or whatever feeling rather than the reality of what was happening.
So I am wondering how the issue of “judgement” has contributed to this current discussion.
What do you guys reckon?May 26, 2006 at 5:35 am #14437
have a look at the quote by zen master Sosan in my post “offensive posts”
Sosan is one of the greatests zen mastersMay 26, 2006 at 2:38 pm #14439
Hi Emelgee, I am wondering how you are using the term “guys”. Do you use it as an androgynouos reference or is your question just to the men?
“wondering about this…
have been watching the barmy unfolding online and I was feeling quite upset to think that a board of people who I would consider to be “enlightened” could have a discussion that still could appear degenerate to such a degree of animosity.”
I suppose there is the tendency to want to believe that a website dedicated to self-cultivation and all the highest ideals would attract a group of people who would all tend to be that way. However, where there is light there is dark, and the need for the resolving of the tension between the two if we are to get to the goal of harmony. That duality exists in us all, and is the cause of our conversations about “men and women” which you mention in another message you would like to see us depart from in favor of discussing more universal things. We can’t entirely yet.
You are not wrong to think there is enlightened presence here. And certainly it comes in at a higher level than the average chat page. But people have their stuff to work out and this is a forum, like life is a forum, in which to cultivate. What one has choosen to cultivate in onesself is what one tends to write like, I believe Singing Ocean said recently. Very true. We can come together only from where we are and we incur the reactions/interactions which that provokes. We are always facing ourselves, our reflections. When we chose to understand that this is so, we are able to merge with instead of argue against what is being said because then we are not in reaction/resistance. This takes will and clarity. One has to “want to.” One has to be willing to feel what is really going on inside and not fight it off, run away from it or project it on others, which happens habitually in society.
We see a microcosm of that here too. When Max wants Singing Ocean to provide him with evidence from his writing that he is being negative or dominant, he wants that because he is not feeling his deepest feelings (about himself) which literally construct the tone of what he is writing. The anger and dissatisfaction are obvious – but only if he were able to feel the underlying feelings. These things come from judgments we are making upon ourselves first and then projecting out to others. All of us do this. If we weren’t making judgments, we’d be living in a vastly different world.
Your disappointment is from your judgment/expectation, but obviously also comes from a part of you that wants more from all of us, including yourself. If you are a practitioner of alchemy then you can take whatever comes up inside yourself and work with it, purify it, refine the energies you are handed and get peaceful, and you will thereby be doing everyone here a service and can be contributing to the “upgrading” of the quality of our interactions. Although it is tough sometimes to stand clear in the presence of lower vibes, it’s a responsibility to do so. Maybe you could initiate in another direction when you don’t like the direction things are going in.
Beyond this subject- I was waiting for your reply to my question from a while ago about what you thought of Pietro’s discourse on love and lust. Did you decide not to spend time on it? Or did you get frightened away? (evil cackle).
Note to Max- Please believe that I do not judge you in using your conversation with Singing Ocean as an example. I support you in your process as I hope you support me in mine. -AMay 27, 2006 at 1:31 am #14441
“If I said to you: ‘Alexander, you secretly hate me’ and you reply ‘What? Show me the evidence’, does it mean you want the evidence because you are not feeling your deepest feelings (about yourself)?”
It could, Max.
The way I read some of your writings is similar to how I believe SO is reading them as well. I could be wrong, but I think there is an undercurrent to SOME of it that implies a heaviness and denial which SO has decided to commment on and engage with you on. And in your present circular conversation he expresses that he feels you are avoiding his questions. I tend to think this is true but I do not want to press this subject because the bickering that is resulting from some of these exchanges is sticking the energy up. I’m sure we could find more fulfilling things to talk about if we tried. For instance, what did you think about the rest of what I said in that post?
Again, if I have misunderstood or misquoted you, I apologize.
-AlexanderMay 27, 2006 at 4:04 am #14443
Thanks for your reply Alexander.
Guys was just a general reference.
The reason I didn’t get back to you re Pietro’s post is that I can find nothing in it that inspires my response. Not in a bad, dismissive way but it is his opinion/experience and I have no thoughts or feelings on it one way or another at this stage (other than respecting his opinion/experience).
EmelgeeMay 27, 2006 at 3:42 pm #14445
My turn to be disappointed.
I feel baffled by the fact that a) you opened a conversation about judgment and then didn’t respond to anything that four people answered, b) that you can’t find anything in Pietro’s words that inspires you to share with others on (!?) when this seems to be such a relevant and potentially helpful topic, c) you didn’t have any response to my message in the philosophy forum when I used a pertinent quote from you to try to help establish greater balance in our conversations than to say offhandedly that you had a minion now, and d) you had no response of any kind to my answer to your question “Does enlightenment mean a loss of sense of humor?”.
I have wanted to draw more women into conversation here because I think it’s a good thing for all of us. I can understand that maybe you haven’t got as much desire to communicate by writing as some have or, as you’ve mentioned before, that you may not have the time. When you have expressed yourself in the past I have enjoyed hearing your thoughts and have wanted to hear more. I don’t know what else to say. I feel frustrated. I guess I want to know: What’s really motivating you to write at all?
-AlexanderMay 27, 2006 at 10:31 pm #14447
Sorry Alexander, it isn’t my job to entertain or speak for all women. I speak when I feel inspired to share. It is that simple really.
Further, in my original post on judgement I said all I really had to say. It isn’t my nature to repeat things unnecessarily. I shared my feelings on something I discovered about myself and welcomed thoughts and comments from other people. People should not feel that because there is no specific reply to their message that their thoughts haven’t been valued.
But, of course, if you want to feel disappointed you are most welcome to feel that because it doesn’t really have anything to do with *me* specifically, does it?
EmelgeeMay 28, 2006 at 1:26 am #14449
Max, you inspired me to look further into why I either am viewed on this forum (or by Alexander alone) to not go deeper into things or if, in fact, I do not do so as a matter of course.
In my daily life I feel I spend a lot of time looking after and encouraging people – both in my work and within my relationships. I spend a lot of time and energy doing this and I don’t begrudge that at all. As time is going on people are asking me to explain to them the meditating I do, to teach them tai chi etc and I feel insecure in doing this because I fear I do not know enough. Consequently, I feel I land up taking the “leading” role in many interactions and working through the insecurities I feel in that way.
On this forum, I feel much more inclined to “go with the flow” and let conversations develop as they will (a luxury I am not often afforded in daily life) plus it is in this way I feel I am also learning not to intellectualise the process too much. On this forum I am much more inclined to let other people’s discussions “guide” me even when, in many instances, I don’t really understand what is going on 🙂
So, Alexander, I hope when you read this post you feel you have some clarification for your questions, as it has offered me some clarification also.
PS – My previous post I stand by though! Alexander, why do you have such expectations about my behaviour that you become disappointed when I am only being who I am? (As full of faults and contradictions as that may be!)May 28, 2006 at 2:05 am #14451
Emelgee, I don’t want you to entertain me nor do I expect you to talk for all women, and it doesn’t have anything to do with you specifically. Like I said, I just want more women to involve themselves here for balance. My desire comes purely from wanting a community feeling to be present. Blessings, Alexander
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