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Hey Michael –
>>As I said, NN, don’t bother reading the book, it will only confirm your opinions.<< Don't worry, I'm not going to read it! I've spent as much time on this subject as I care to... not really what i came here for. best NN
Hello Master Yoda,
>>The website believes that energy cultivation practice is like plowing the field and meditation is like planting the seed–they work best when done together.<< Oh and I'd agree absolutely, although I'd have to add that those two things are not your only 2 options either. Bring them all on say I, the more the merrier. BTW, I'm a big fan of yours. Nice to have an older wiser head come up with a voice of reason! When I reach 900 I'm hoping to look as good as you. best NN
If you read the rest of the debate on this forum, you will note my question: if Nan’s work is so definitive and exhaustive, why doesn’t it even MENTION the use of inner sound current, which is at the core of higher inner alchemy work (and evidenced in many widely available taoist texts).
The reply from the devotee, blinded by his love of Nan:
Nan knows about this, but its too subtle to be talked about, and only taught to the secret initiates.So much for writing an authoritative, honest book….
You mean like an honest and authoritative sex book you wrote with Chia?
And why did you only stop with the inner sound current? There are other inner currents that deserve as much attention. Actually one can wright books on it, but would it help someone in passing through this stage when they are actually experiencing them first hand? It’s like getting off the train to look at an amusing thing that cought your attention instead of continuing the journey.
Inner sound current may be at the core of higher Taoist inner alchemy work. For many other people, it’s just a road sign just passing by.
Being new here I suppose that it’s not my place, but in the interests of peace may I humbly recommend we drop this? best NN
If you are interested in ancient daoist texts that talk openly about spinning qi for cultivation. Or you could simply look a little deeper into Zhuang Zi for the inner sound current:
“Just then I’d lost myself completely. Do you understand such things? Perhaps you understand the music of Humans, but you haven’t heard the music of the earth. Or if you’ve heard the music of the earth, you have’nt heard the music of heaven…sounding the ten thousand things differently, so each becomes itself according to itself alone-who could make such music?”
So Max, what other currents are there that you are aware of that deserve as much attention since you mentioned it? And where is your book on all the inner currents?
The sound current is a tool to help navigate the inner planes; as a metaphor, it is more like the train than an amusement. How can you really separate the raft from the shore anyway? should’nt they both be in harmonious balance?
I am happy to oblige in discussing texts, time permitting.
Instead of dropping it, I ask myself the question, why do these zen folks feel they need to come on here and push their agenda anyway?
I’m sure we had this discussion before. So lets not repeat it again.
It’s very simple:
If you meditate correctly, all the activations and channel openings will happen on its own. N-a-t-u-r-a-l-l-y. Emptiness meditation is a very good way to do it.
We are well acquainted with the inner smile; it is a prerequisite for all further cultivation.
Daoist alchemy is also simple and is based on the deep fundamental cycles of nature:
It uses the inner smile (acceptance/neutral awareness), yin and yang frequencies, and the five phase cycle of elements (virtue qualities).
Qigong, if not forced or mechanical, is an accelerated method to open the pathways.
Alchemy is a great way to cultivate spiritually the innate virtue qualities and integrate all levels of yin and yang jing, qi and shen, and refine them into the true alchemists gold of spirit with substance.
so, you can sit and wait around for the channels to open or use your will and intention to ask them nicely to open for you. Sure the accelerated method might bring up deep issues that need to be resolved, but that comes with the territory: if you open a door, be prepared to step through it!
Max
I do agree with your view that original taoism holds a much more sound and direct approach to the essentials of daoism. It’s important not to confuse heritage with transmission, as there is alot of information that is part of heritage that becomes useless, but transmission always keep getting “upgraded” and improved, adapting to the changing chi of the differnt time periods humans live in.
Just one thing, I disagree with your notion of letting things be in meditation and everything will sort itself out. That is not entirely correct.
There is a time for doing and a time for non-doing. Sometimes the body or the mind needs a jolt of the right medicine to open, and let go. This is done by yourself or a teacher. If that doesn’t happen, life will do it for you.
Just sitting and forgetting is not really a correct approach for most people. Sometimes, it’s even impossible. Alot of sitting and forgetting actually amounts to the very opposite, sitting and remebering. And then you start a period of battling with you own baggage and patterns. And this can go on for years and years, wasting valuable time. Then, it is better to start working on some other aspect of the system, or better yet, get blasted by a dose of the right type of chi from your teacher, to be able to let go entirely.
Sometimes we need help. And sometimes we actually need to remmeber before we can forget. Emptiness meditation is not functional in all those respects.
Just my own rambling opininon.
h
Heya Singing Ocean,
You have a point. Might it perhaps be time for Bodri to put a discussion board up somewhere? Then everyone can do what they like in peace! best NN
Hagar,
I appreciate your comment.
The experiences that come with meditations based on one-pointed concentration and emptiness are different for each individual. They do indeed bring a lot of ‘sfuff’ out. and you do need a qualified teacher to help you. Letting go of things is the hardest thing one can go through- and that’s why visualization types of meditation are so popular. If that’s what it takes for most people to dive into their inner journey of discovery, then i don’t see any problems with that. But eventually they will have to realize that they can’t hold on to their mental states/illusions/channels and grow at the same time. They will need to let it all go.I noticed there is quite an effort from Michael to discredit Master Nan about his knowledge of Taoism. I don’t understand why this is needed to be done. After all, Nan has access to resources that not even avalable in modern Chinese.
is the best practice HT taught to people, along with Primordial Chi Kung.
Just these two practices is enough.Max,
I find the issue of who has the most thorough understanding of taoism, and which path is more direct a matter for scholars.
My point was just that pure sitting, done in a contemporary context often becomes rigid, or unflexible, as following and working with the energy often elicits faster results in an easier manner.
My own experience is that alchemy and pure sitting are just different and complimentary dimensions of practice. The pure sitting is working on the macro level, the alchemical practice is working on the micro level (cavities, space in the body). In the system I practice they go hand in hand,but have different emphasis, and effects.
In pure sitting, I tune into the cosmic energy and space, and let whatever happens play itself out. In int. alchemy I work with the transformation of the system, and open up the space in the internal cosmos.
The fundamental difference is best described metaphorically. The pure sitting creates light, and makes you come into a more symbolic state.
The alchemy is more like discovering the internal weather changes.Pure sitting is like the clear blue sky, where you become the space above, whereas the internal alchemy is like a sky full of shifing clouds and vapor, where the sun shines through, lighting up ocean, creating life…
h
‘we drop this’?
🙂Naa, that wouldn’t work. At least not here. You just let it run its course. Eventually it will come back to the source. That’s the Tao way.
And, btw, I was joking. Don’t feel responsible for what is going on here. We like to keep things a bit edgy. You know, just not to fall asleep at the steering wheel. 😉
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