February 22, 2005 at 4:01 pm #2795
The computer hacker analogy arises from the concept that without a proper teacher, one is like a technician without a manual. Hence, a hacker. I came up with this analogy long before I knew who Nan Huai-Chin was.
You know, Michael Winn writing that:
A prime example of his superficiality is how Huai Nan ridicules taoists for running the orbit in endless loops around their body, instead of focusing on some higher true spiritual paradise sought by Buddhists.
betrays exactly where Michael Winn comes from. Oh yeah–Nan Huai-Chin is on the kindergarden level (and superficial) because he suggests people do good deeds instead of selfishly pursuing immortality!!!
Doing good deeds and helping others happens to be the Ph.D. level of ALL FORMS of cultivation. This isnt Buddhism nor is it Taoismit is the underlying wisdom of ALL traditions.
Seriously, how is Michael going to attain immortality with no sense of doing good deeds? This is basic Taoism people, but Michael likes to avoid the whole concept of karma and reincarnation and other “Buddhist musings” when in reality they simply conflict with his own selfish and greedy pursuit of immortality.
As a matter of fact, if Michael had even the kindergarden level of awareness he attributes to Nan Huai-Chin, he would have warned all of us up in the caves on Hua Shan about the fox spirits that stole jing from everyone up there every night.
How was he supposed to know? Unless a man’s chi is clean enough, no fox spirit will attempt to steal it! 😉
Life is suffering. Look around the world and tell me that life is not suffering! You would be a big fat liar if you did so! Life is suffering because no matter how great your life is, one day you will get old and die. Then what? What will happen in the next life? Who can say?
Michael doesn’t care because his plan is to become immortal and then side-step the whole “death thing.” What if he fails? Then it is back into the meat-grinder with the rest of us!
Seriously, your body is a reflection of the mindnot the other way around. In other words, there is an answer to the “chicken/egg aspect” of the body/mind riddle in this respect: THE MIND CAME FIRST!
Naturally, when you are so far in the hole with a locked-up body that reflects a hopelessly attached mind then you need BODY methods to get to a SPACE where you can LET GO IN YOUR MIND.
It is like the body is a dense form of thought. You need to dissolve that dense thought using certain methods so that you can approach the less dense version of that thought IN YOUR MIND.
BUT THIS DOESN’T MEAN THAT THE BODY METHOD IS “THE WAY!!!”
All mundane methods lead you into your own mind–where the real work is done. The work of disentanglement and detachment. The more you can do so, the more your REAL CHI comes up and moves on it’s own accord.
Even moving the FALSE CHI with your mind (“playing” with your microcosmic orbit) it just another body-method that takes you to a place in your mind where YOU NEED TO DROP THE METHOD IN ORDER TO ADVANCE!!!
If you don’t DROP IT when you are supposed to then you will fall into a false path which gives you results SO YOU THINK IT IS THE REAL PATH. Or, you will just go nowhere with your practice.
Remember, the ultimate work is in your mind and NOT in your body.
In the days of Shakyamuni or Lao Tzu people didn’t suffer the lack of integration between the body and the mind that they suffer today. They also didn’t have distractions and neurosis like people do today. So it was easy to forget the body and work in the mind realm.
Today is different and requires dense “forced” methods but the danger is you get attached to your “alchemy” and your “qi gong” and your “body methods” and wander around playing with chi and accomplishing nothing or REAL VALUE. You do your methods and don’t realize WHEN YOU’VE ALREADY CROSSED THE RIVER YOU NEED TO PUT THE FUCKING BOAT DOWN!!! LOL!!!
Another way to look at it is to say that Buddhists talk about letting go of thoughts and feelings but you HAVE TO FEEL THEM BEFORE YOU CAN LET THEM GO!!! LOL!!!
Read books like “Aware Baby” and study the videos of Scott Sonnon” because you have to learn to let go and feel in order to have feelings to let go of!
But the Healing Tao fucked it all up because they taught everyone that the mind is a computer and the organs are the software and then later on that it is about shen theory.
In short, they gave the WRONG answer to this fundamental question:
“Does the chi follow the mind or does the mind follow the chi?”February 22, 2005 at 6:47 pm #2796
I think the differences in the mind approach of Buddhism and the body approach of Taoism are more apparent than real. At least, that is, with Tantric Buddhism and its close cousin Hindu Tantra. Of course there is the very real difference of Buddhist Refuge but the premises remain fundamentally the same: the notion of the inseparability of mind and body and mind and chi. In Tibetan Tantra the five Dhayini Buddhas are the pure expression of the skandhas while their consorts the pure expression of the elements. On being asked what the difference was between Hindu Tantra and Buddhist Tantra Dudjom Rinpoche replied Bodhicitta. Bodhicitta itself has quite specfic meanings depending on whether it is being looked at from a Mahayana, Vajrayana or Dzogchen viewpoint.
In Mahamudra and Completion Stage Yogas the body and its innate energies is cherished as a valuable vehicle for crossing the ocean of samsara. Working with the channels, tigles and energies is said to lead to a far deeper experience of Samadhi than the methods taught in the sutras. That’s the tantric view anyway.
Aspirants normally have to jump through hoops to get access to these tantric practices so in this respect the Healing Tao formulas are a real opportunity. Yes there are dangers and pitfalls but any approcah has these.
rexFebruary 22, 2005 at 7:33 pm #2798
Plato. allow to ask. Wouldn’t be “giving” the fox spirits jing from you be a “good dead” producing merit? I mean: Bodri in his White Skeleton Meditation advises that you give away your flesh for the hungry ghosts to eat… (I do not yet know the difference between these two types of beings… I am still in the learning process)…
HarryFebruary 22, 2005 at 7:38 pm #2800
you both deserve a spankingFebruary 22, 2005 at 7:52 pm #2802
sorry, plato, but this hasnt been my experience with michael. he’s done many good turns toward me that indicate generosity and good will, not greed and a selfish pursuit of immortality. it also indicates care and respect for the nurtutring of a student. i’m not going to get into details about what he’s done because those are private between him and me. but i’m sure i’m not the only one in this world he’s done good deeds for. is he flawless? no. and we all have our issues and shortcomings to work on, including you. for all i know, you invited (consciously or subconsciously) those spirits to steal your jing. maybe there was a deeper lesson you need to get out of it. i dont know. but your gripe here seems petty.
anyway, doing merit for merit’s sake, in ordr to earn merit or darma, is just as selfish. you’re not really trying to do good for anyone, you’re merely tryng to increase your own darma. good deeds must spring naturally from our virtue and be guided by wisdom. would you help someone change a flat tire on the side of the road if you knew they were on their way to murder somebody? i wouldn’t. nad i hate to think i’d inadvertatly assist them. that doesn’t stop me from doing good deeds. whent he voice of the spirit stirs inside of me and moves me in a natural and spontaneous way to do good deeds i do them. and the more alchemy i do in the pursuit of immortality, the more this occurs. so what michael has taught me has increased virtue and good deed doing. though i remain very very far from saint hood. i’m just indicating some results i’ve noticed.
maybe you think it’s a good deed to diss michael on his own website and steer people away from what you consider a bad teacher. but he’s a good teacher to a lot of people, and you should respect that. i dont see him over on taobums dissing your products you pitch there. and dissing him here is utterly classless.
i’ll finish with a post from taobums that pretty much sums up the karma issue, and others agree with it. you’re free disagree with it and i respect your opinion as it comes form your experience:
“well after almost 20 years of seeking and searching and practicing and playing, i have come to this conclusion: karma is mostly bullshit! especially the moralistic notion presented in buddhism and hinduism. and in fact, it doesn’t evenm really help you to think about it or “work with it”. it’s a wste of time and energy. the alchemy and meditation is all you have to wrry about. no act by intself is good or bad. this is probably the greatest fallacy perpetrated by organized religion of any kind–that a given action is always good or always bad. sometimes it’s ok to lie, cheat, fuck, or even kill. you need the wisdom and profound depth and consciousness that guides you thru the journey to see clearly the circumstances of life and act accordingly. forget about karma. the little bit of that teaching that is true will be made clear to you when it’s needed. dwelling on karma and morality causes you to lose sight of the big picture. the BIG picture.”February 22, 2005 at 8:04 pm #2804
thanks for the input. well i’m workin on it at least. some day…..hopefully sooner than later…..i’ll get there.February 22, 2005 at 8:58 pm #2806
Life isn’t suffering…except for humans. The Shaolin guy I trained with would belittle us for grunting or complaining about our little aches. “Look at nature”, he’d say, “do the animals or plants complain when they are hungry or hurt? No, they do what they do. They follow the way. Humans follow distortions.”
I value the opinions of Michael and Plato; I am a student of Michael and might hope to consider Plato my friend of sorts. They are two of the more intelligent, well-read, committed, live-life to the fullest people that I have ever met.
My over-riding sense is that there is something deeply personal going on in their dynamic. It would be really wonderful if they could stop sniping at each other and at other teachers, and find some common ground. Not alot, but just a bit, of common ground could go a long way. And that is where I’m putting my wishes.
ChrisFebruary 22, 2005 at 9:32 pm #2808
Michael called me here.
So I came.
To think that Shakyamuni had mother issues and Nan Huai-Chin is in spiritual kindergarden!
Imagine if I posted that Lao Tzu was a repressed homosexual. How I knew? I tuned into his energy! LOL
-PlatoFebruary 22, 2005 at 9:35 pm #2810
We are all humans, no?
I like Michael very much and mean him no disrespect even if you find it hard to believe.
-PlatoFebruary 22, 2005 at 9:37 pm #2812
You are close. The answer is to offer them dharma.
Not your jing!February 22, 2005 at 11:48 pm #2814
Nice post Plato.
I just want to add that the whole HT shen theory is over-simlified to the extreem. If one should talk about it, they should talk from a “non-linear time” point of view. Then, a lot of theories and methods will fall apart.
If one has to test if their spiritual method is effective, they should sit down and simply observe their empty space/immortal child/cauldron/whatever. If they can’t hold their attention to it for more then a minute and their mind wonders around, then one might consider questioning the effectiveness of their practices.
Very little of spiritual wisdom comes from practice. Merit makes it blossom and is the driving force that make you progress on your spiritual path. Contless masters talked about it and this is not a new concept. Do good deeds to others, whenever you can.
Metta.February 23, 2005 at 12:34 am #2816
with one or two exceptions, i’ve never met anyone who knows the difference between a good deed and a bad deed. and i’ve never met anyone who performs merit without self-interest.
merit is buddhist for “schmooze.” its a corrolary of the christian notion of sin: “dont be bad or you’ll burn in hell. and i’ll tell you how not to be bad.” so instead of worrying about whether what you’re doing is a sin or not, you about whether it’s merit or not. just another control mechanism from your friends at the international association of organized religions. or just another way of projecting your resentments onto others…..February 23, 2005 at 12:51 am #2818
You’ve never met anyone who knows the difference between a good deed or a bad deed? You must be joking!
You know how to tell the difference? When your karma comes and bites you in the ass, that’s how. As the lifetimes go by it will start to sink in. 😉
BTW, it don’t matter if you perform merit with self-interest or not.
You “get paid” anyway. 🙂 That’s why so much in this world seems so unfair.
Your “who knows what is good and bad” and “self-interest caveats” are just weak excuses for you to avoid the whole issue of responsibility.
As Keanu said in his latest film:
“You don’t believe in Satan? You should–he believes in you.”
-PlatoFebruary 23, 2005 at 1:31 am #2820
Well said and good post.This post alone already gives you good merit.
Michael must be out of his fucking mind to pass such remarks on Lord Buddha and Master Huai Chin Nan. Honestly, I was very shocked when I listened to his tapes where he systematically destroyed Mantak Chia to show to his student at Big Indian that he is better but not realizing it is just like the pot calling the kettle black as both of them are teaching the same shit but with slightly different wrappings. If one looks deeper, the whole ulterior motive is greed. This is so much for a teacher for those of his cronies and supporters who preached respect the teacher and respect the system and still thinks that his fart smells good. It is time to wake up!
He is very cunning indeed and has gone a long way from a photo journalist to a kingpin Jew smuggler in Africa and now Taoist preacher who is ignorant that the five skandas are just empty phenomena and still blindly telling the world that his alchemy on bodily sensation will bring immortality.
Metta to all,
Black HawkFebruary 23, 2005 at 3:36 am #2822
In real and proper Taoism, “fox spirit” is the same as “mara” in Buddhism.
Giving the fox spirit your jing is as good as succumbing to lust and greed of the five senses because no real transformation has taken place through BS practice.
Metta to all
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