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Ming men and dan tien: clarification sought

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Home › Forum Online Discussion › Philosophy › Ming men and dan tien: clarification sought

  • This topic has 20 replies, 5 voices, and was last updated 10 years, 7 months ago by Steven.
Viewing 6 posts - 16 through 21 (of 21 total)
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  • Author
    Posts
  • September 18, 2014 at 5:40 pm #42818
    Steven
    Moderator

    I know Walter used to sell a DVD called “Radiant Hand Body Activation Method”, and it was effectively Ocean Breathing. Later Walter marketed it *as* Ocean Breathing. I assumed that Michael had renamed it, since it was clear they were communicating . . . but maybe the name was collaboratively decided. Here is more history: Ocean Breathing history

    In any case, it did not come out of a vacuum, so what it “actually does”, is purely practitioner opinion.

    However, to me, if the clear expansion and contraction is centered at the center of the dantian–both with the breath and with the qi ball–it hardly makes sense to me that “the purpose” of the practice is to open the Door of Life wider. It creates the inconsistent question that you yourself raised, not to mention the “ignoring” of all the other qi that is flooding the dantian via the practice. So, I would say it is a consequence, but not the main purpose. The dantian has a function as I’ve already described, and the practice both seems and feels (to me) to be in line with that function based my own practice with it, so that’s the basis for my opinion.

    Others may have a different view (possibly Michael), but I don’t necessarily feel that others need to agree with me either. 😉

    The great thing about qigong and alchemy is that it is very individual. Each person has their own unique experience and unfolding of the practices. In short, there is no one “right” answer, outside of the personal experience you yourself receive. Comments by others that don’t match your personal experience should not be accepted, despite the source. This includes both audio lectures on meaning by Michael as well as opinions I post.

    Qi,
    Steven

    P.S. Sometimes Michael does not refer to the mingmen as an area that physically lies back by the kidneys, and he instead refers to it as the “prenatal inner space” of the dantian (i.e. they lie in the same space). While this view is not necessarily consistent with some Daoist literature (and one I don’t personally share), it also resolves the issue of the center of the dantian being the focus in his framework.

    Just between you and I, I think it better it most cases to not put too much intellectual mental thought into the meaning of the practice, but instead to just do the practice and let the practice *teach you* what it is about. Once you put an intellectual idea onto a practice as to what it is supposed to be, you immediately limit the possibilities that can unfold.

    This is why I’m a big advocate for getting really grounded and really embodied, and then just do the practices and let them teach you what they are about. The mind likes to control your spiritual evolution, but very rarely does it actually know what it is that you really need.

    September 28, 2014 at 4:08 am #42820
    Fool Turtle
    Participant

    Consistency/inconsistency within disciplines is an interesting subject. Thanks for the information, and your view, which makes sense to me–what is special about the right kidney? The kidney relative to acupunture points or the planets in differing astrologies? Science or art?

    A broad question is this: how does one determine what to practice based on inconsistent information? What is *best* and how does one determine that? I prefer to create experiences and then to seek knowledge that could possibly add to (or resonate with) the experience, but sometimes i seek knowledge in order to create an experience. I couldn’t tell you what song you’d enjoy, but I wouldn’t recommend that you eat the “Angel of Death” that sometimes fruits in my yard.

    If interested in consistency/inconsistency… then I am curious. This is vague, but the texts I’m studying are raising a number of questions (and reminding me of questions) that I can’t now answer based on experience or knowledge. If I lived 900 years, I think I’d feel the same way; yet, there are practical ways to live and some mysteries seem to be simply an acknowledgement of ignorance. Fermat’s last theorem and all that. You can build a fire and cook with it if you know how, etc.

    In the mind of the beginner… endless possibilities. Good thing babies have parents to teach them, yes?

    “A painting of a rice cake does not satisfy hunger.”

    September 30, 2014 at 4:29 am #42822
    Steven
    Moderator

    It requires using the power of discernment–examining all evidence with an open but skeptical mind–and trying to discern what is merely an opinion vs. some core idea. Ultimately, you have to let your own intuition be your guide. It has to come from your gut . . . your core. If you are trying to seek truth via knowledge you are already at a hopeless limitation. The mysteries of the Tao are immense in comparison that of a human life. Meditate deeply on my Laniakea post (General Page) to see this clearly. Truth can not come through the mind. You need to transcend it.

    October 5, 2014 at 2:45 am #42824
    Fool Turtle
    Participant

    I love poetry that I may never “understand” – and that’s ok. Your words gave me something to digest, so here’s a poem that has a feeling of … :

    Airing out kimonos

    by Fukuda Chiyo-ni

    English version by Patricia Donegan & Yoshie Ishibashi
    Original Language Japanese

    Airing out kimonos
    as well as her heart
    is never enough.

    Thanks

    October 8, 2014 at 4:08 pm #42826
    RichieRich
    Participant

    Thanks for the Ocean Breathing (OB) link. From this, it looks like Michael combined Walter’s breathing method with a qigong form he created. Interestingly, in the link, Michael states that he combined the breathing with qigong in order “to open the lower dantien”. As Michael often uses “dantien” to mean the Door of Life, I take this to be another instance of Michael stating that the purpose of OB is to open the Door.

    Sometimes Michael does not refer to the mingmen as an area that physically lies back by the kidneys, and he instead refers to it as the “prenatal inner space” of the dantian (i.e. they lie in the same space). While this view is not necessarily consistent with some Daoist literature (and one I don’t personally share), it also resolves the issue of the center of the dantian being the focus in his framework.

    Thanks for the clarification. I had a vague memory of Michael saying something similar on QF2013, hence the conditional phrasing of the hypothetical question in my previous post. If the dantian and mingmen occupy the same space, then, as you say, making the centre of the dantian the point of focus is unproblematic.

    I think it better in most cases to not put too much intellectual mental thought into the meaning of the practice, but instead to just do the practice and let the practice *teach you* what it is about. Once you put an intellectual idea onto a practice as to what it is supposed to be, you immediately limit the possibilities that can unfold.

    Whilst I don’t disagree, I think that, in this instance, much of my mental effort has been spent on trying clarify and understand the difference in perspective between you and Michael. I’ve been a little surprised that the two of you differ on the purpose of OB, on the importance you attach to the Door (“I would disagree with the sales pitch about the Door of Life you are quoting from his 2008 course”) and, possibly, on its location. But there again, I’m a lover of consistency. Others might proclaim vive la difference!

    Whilst thinking about this reply, I was reminded of the emphasis Michael seems to place on pre-natal chi in QF forms. In the extract below he talks about the importance of using pre-natal chi in the Five Animals.

    I have taken his comment to heart. In my Chi Kung Fundamentals course, I spend a long time from the very start doing a very simple chi kung movement I now call Ocean Breathing, a brilliant term coined by Senior Instructor Walter Beckley, who was experimenting with similar simple breathing methods. The secret in these methods is to get “mindless” as quickly and directly as possible, while still focusing on the lower dan tien. The image of water gets you out of the heady concept of breathing air, and into the deeper watery rhythms of your blood and jing. I link in a heart centered Inner Smile with this state of floating in waves inside the dan tien, and being aware of a vast ocean inside the body, an inner ocean of chi, bigger even than the outer ocean.

    The dan tien is no longer a tiny, hard to find point inside a dense little physical body — it is immense, and from the very start the source of all pure chi used in the Healing Sounds. I teach students to see their bodies filling with clouds of different colored chi from this inner ocean filling their vital organs and entire body, before they breathe it out using the Healing Sounds. And I give them dynamic movements to help release the chi, by integrating the Six Healing Sounds with the oldest chi kung movement known in China, the Five Animals Play. In between each sound & animal movement, I have them internally breathe between the vital organ and the dan tien.

    In one sense, nothing here breaks new ground. It simply provides more examples of the difference in view between you and Michael. But I thought the examples were interesting enough to comment upon!

    October 8, 2014 at 7:24 pm #42828
    Steven
    Moderator

    On Walter’s original “Radiant Hand Body Activation Method” DVD, Walter is doing qigong . . . so it is unclear what was “created” by Michael exactly. There is a lot of qigong out there, and practitioners borrow from each other all the time, so it is often hard to pinpoint the exact source. If you change something by 10%, it is someone else’s or did you “create” it? This gets into a really fuzzy area about what is proprietary, and to be honest, I’m not sure it is terribly important.

    At the same time, if Michael did create it, so what? People do qigong forms all the time, but the actual internal meaning behind what they do is pure personal speculation. No one has god-like omniscient understanding to such a degree that they can speak about meaning in an absolute sense. The only thing one can speak about, is one’s personal experience.

    So in my case it is clear.
    Considering both historical Daoist literature (which in itself has some conflicts) and considering imperfect agreement amongst several different Daoist practitioners, I try to discern what is most likely given many possibilities. However, the true test comes when I actually do the practice. I do the practice and see what I observe. I observe which possibility arises naturally from the practice. Then, based on all of that, I form an opinion.

    Sometimes this leads to agreement with Michael; sometimes not.

    I have a lot of love and respect for Michael, but unfortunately I have too much of an open skeptical mind to be an acolyte of any one single teacher. I don’t believe that there is a single person alive that is 100% correct, 100% of the time.

    S

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