- This topic has 5 replies, 4 voices, and was last updated 19 years, 3 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
I’ve been busy the past few days but had wanted to reply to the following post which seems to have disappeared, either because it was axed due to shenanigans on its thread or because of falling off the edge of the forum universe, but which luckily I had already saved to my harddrive for later review (something I often do).
All I wanted to say is–well said: A three times great, daoist ‘Emerald Tablet’:Re: Shen theory..bagua’s question FREE WILL + GRAVITY
From: Michael Winn
Subject: General
Date/Time 2006-01-20 07:18:17
Remote IP: 216.110.115.126
Message
>Taoists use different methods to accomplish the same thing- their success or failure depends on allowing this process to happen naturally instead of forcing it.There is a difference between looking within your body and observing energy sensations AS THEY ARE and WHAT YOU THINK THEY SHOULD BE.>Human mind is the key on any spiritual path. The moment it perceives any combination of 5 elements through your 5 senses and attaches an emotional response to it, you create karma. If you don’t stop this process, all your spiritual practices will have only a limited effect- just like cutting the weed without removing its root.
All of the excellent discussion about shen theory in this and the earlier thread are dancing around a hidden center of gravity without actually naming it. I will name it. It’s called Free Will.
Free Will notion arises from the idea that the primordial, undifferentiated being had the WILL to polarize itself (yin-yang octaves) and then began playing with these polarities in five phase cycles/harmonics/tones.
So that whatever got created in this process also has a tiny piece of that original free will. Including humans, that by design (as things evolved, and challenges arose) got a pretty high degree of free will given to them.
The five shen are sometimes called the Five Wills. They simply represent microcosmically the relationship between original will (here Original Shen) and its manifesting process (here Five Shen).
I think Max gave a good overview of the process, but drew the wrong conclusion.
Possibly because he’s influenced by a tradition that thinks the self is illusory and thus how could it have any free will?This is not too different from schools that believe all Will and thus all action is taken by God, thus human salvation relies on giving up your individual will and surrendering it to God. The belief blurs the simlultaneous co-existence of Original Will and its manifest forms expressed within the 10,000 things. There is not a conflict between the two; there is a process.
“Allowing” something naturally and “Responding actively” to an energetic sensation are both acts of free will, one is yin, the other is yang. Responding to an emotion does create karma. Karma just means action. So yes, response is an action to another action.
Nothing wrong with action – taking action is an essential aspect of free will. If we cannot take action, we don’t feel free. All outer action is preceded by inner action, which could also be called imagination – the activity of the five shen together creating a reality as an act of personal will. A perfect reflection of the action of the greater (cosmic) self in creating the reality in which it can also microcosmically act.
Inner Alchemy simply trains one to take action on higher levels of the chain of “self”, from lesser personal self to greater cosmic self to original self. To take higher action, one has to integrate the lesser 5 wills and act in a unified and harmonic manner. That brings one into closer allignment with Original Will and leads to greater trust.
When greater trust exists, more chi is released to flow into the lesse levels of self, and thus more power to exercise more free will. “Spiritual immortality” is simply a way to conceptualize/describe this process of developing responsible individual will that is allowed to exercise its creative imagination in more dimensions.l
When you birth a child, you hope the child will love you, and you encourage that response, that the child will acknowledge the love (yi, creative imagination/personal will needed to create another being) and sacrifice (giving of one’s sperm/egg) in order to birth. But you also know that you cannot force the child to love you, otherwise its mechanical (unwilled) expression of love would be meaningless.
The question, do the 5 shen have any reality? is really asking, does any level of the cosmic process have a reality? Or the underlying question really is, what can we say about that “reality” that would deepen our experience of it?
Of course, an ounce of practice is worth a ton of theory.
But perhaps still useful to have “dry runs” here in mental/cyberspace.
A “reality” implies a center of perspective, which requires a center of gravity to hold together the process (yin-yang and 5 phase); so gravity defines a sense of self. Any “reality” thus is held together by gravity.
Is gravity real? This is the greatest mystery of both physics and metaphysics – we know its real, but its source is elusive.
The embracing of Earth’s physical gravity (starting with lower dantian) and Heaven’s spiritual gravity (beginning with upper dantian) will eventually awaken the true center of gravity of Humanity (middle dantian).
These are the Three Ones, the trinitarian processs inseparable from the Original One which mysteriously arose from the Supreme Mystery, wuji.
Lovely how every small question leads back to the same mystery.
michael
I have the same question: what happened to that post?
It must have disappeared into the post-vortex. I guess now there’s no info its time to practice.
Well, yes, it was me, and it was not intentional.
I’m working on a new interface, and …My sincere apologies.
James
Yes, I hope the dialogue is reposted, I engaged in this subject because it is very ambigous and vague within the taoist community. Also, it isolates valuable areas of this important theory.
bagua
Here are some selected posts from that thread:
Is human nature a passive or active concept?
From: singing ocean
Subject: General
Date/Time 2006-01-23 01:28:59
Remote IP: 154.20.12.53
Message
Thank you for your reply.>>”I agree with this statement as well. That’s why a structured ‘actualization/visualization’ has a very limited effect on a unique set of imbalances of each individual in this spontaneous process. We need to let go of a need to be in control and just observe HOW IT IS. The magical thing is, if one truly does that, all the alchemy happens on its own, in its due time.”
The first stage of our training is inner observation and acceptance through the inner smile. Calling the meditations “actualization/visualization” is a very limited view of the resonance patterns of the five phases; we activate and communicate with their/our intelligence using sound, virtue feeling, colour, dynamic, season, taste etc. We activate them in all of their manifestations to realize them, and allow them to follow their own nature through intention and will, not force. One can actively choose harmony or passively accept what comes across their path, one road allows you to face your resistance and deal with your issues actively whereas the other happens without the intention over a longer time period.
>>”If one is not ready, the effects of Taoist alchemy are limited. If one calls it a ‘natural process’ and then uses his own will to actualise it, one is not following the Taoist pricipals.”
Being ready is a matter of doing the foundation practices and connecting with the intelligence of the qi field through opening the channels and letting go of fixed patterns in the vital organ shen. The inner will of the collective shen to harmonise usually happens over a long period in ones life, but by encouraging this now we accelerate the natural process. Whether or not it is following daoist principals or is “natural” is a matter of opinion from the school of training you practice.
>>”What do you mean by ‘root’? If I weren’t familiar with Winn’s Alchemy and it’s language, how would you describe it to me?”
By root, it is in the context of your original statement; I am referring to the five virtue quality/intelligences. In manifestation, the source diversifies into the physical through the five phases, in returning, we harmonize the five phases to reach the origin/root.
neutral point
From: singing ocean
Subject: General
Date/Time 2006-01-23 01:37:10
Remote IP: 154.20.12.53
Message
>>”As you quiet your mind and go deeper into observing your body more and more, you will be able to tap and actually experience the shen/emotionally charged energy strands of events happened in this life before. This re-experience, if done witout emotional attachment and clinging, will free you from their karmic influence.”Daoist alchemy allows you to become the balancing/harmonizing/fusion/neutral gateway for all those past/present/future strands of the shen as well. This is a progressive path of integrating the individual, collective and primordial will.
original will – yuan shen
From: singing ocean
Subject: General
Date/Time 2006-01-23 01:42:32
Remote IP: 154.20.12.53
Message
>>”That’s why an evolved being can act in a way to bring the greatest impact in a situation- all because they see things clearly, without a single cloud of emotion.”Do you mean from a point of pure neutrality? Merged with the original will?
Re: Nourishing Destiny?
From: Michael Winn
Subject: General
Date/Time 2006-01-20 06:25:51
Remote IP: 216.110.115.126
Message
Nourishing Destiny was added at my insistence.Lonny Jarrett is not from the TCM tradition, invented 50 years ago by Maoists, but from the Worsley Five Elements School of oriental medicine. Worsley is an Englishman.
Worsley took an aspect of Classical Chinese Medicine (CCM) and amplified the importance of the five phases, including the shen aspect – which had been effectively removed from TCM. Shen was too vague, too unscientific, too spiritual for the New Scientific Man the Maoists were re-inventing.
m
jing qi shen
From: singing ocean
Subject: General
Date/Time 2006-01-19 23:49:28
Remote IP: 154.20.12.53
Message
The cosmology basically says that the source beyond limit (wuji) manifests and the original self divides itself out, and steps down its frequency in order to function in formless and physical planes (wu-shen-qi-jing). The manifestation of the division is into the five streams of consciousness known as the five phases.The original self divides itself out and the process of alchemy is meant to integrate them back in (jing-qi-shen-wu) because of the separation and unconsciousness in the physical plane that makes people think they are separate from their source. The process of integration is a natural progression as a person assimilates and refines all their experiences of consciousness in their physical lifetime, but alchemy is an acceleration of that process.
In the situation of death of the physical body, from my understanding the term “fragmented Shen” means those aspects of personality (such as the Hun and Po souls, wood and metal elements) that are not able to integrate themselves into the original self during the physical lifetime for various reasons. These unintegrated aspects are still feeling attached to the earthly or heavenly aspects of the physical plane, and end up in the lower astral in a collective pool of (un)consciousness patterns that have not integrated back in to the original self, still containing the incomplete parts from their experience in the physical plane, waiting to be cycled back into the physical plane to be ultimately integrated.
Of course the “fragmented shen” are still part of the original self as everything that exists is.
There is an everpresent inner witness, a “conscious” part, and an unconscious part of our existence. I think this is a big reason why many spiritual paths think they have reached the original self, when they have just cultivated the “conscious” part of their being.
There is always room for interpretation.
time, five phases, completion, virtue qualities
From: singing ocean
Subject: General
Date/Time 2006-01-20 03:37:58
Remote IP: 154.20.12.53
Message
In daoist cosmology, Later Heaven manifests as linear time, Early Heaven as cyclical and Primordial heaven as an everpresent point in time with no past or future. How can impermanence or permanence exist if ultimately all things are infinitely present in each moment?I agree that the five phases have a major influence on human existence, but would say that the importance is more in cultivating a connection with the pure spiritual virtue qualities of each phase (or strand, or element) in order to react spontaneously to events rather than falling into a fixed thought or reaction pattern, to allow them to interact dynamically according to the fluid and everchanging circumstances of life.
The “individualizing” of the collective intelligence of the five phases as they step down into the human form can be integrated with the original self by harmonizing them and developing the inner will to create harmony, and allowing spontaneous patterns and interactions to arise.
The idea of completion/destiny would be similar to your idea of “karma” or “past lives” in that each unique human has a unique balance or imbalance of elemental consciousness, and will be drawn to certain events in their physical and spiritual-energetic lives that depending on how they are played out, will help to complete and harmonize that balance.
Daoist alchemy essentially allows the natural process of completion to happen but in an accelerated way by allowing the different energetic possibilities to combine before they physically or spiritually manifest.
I think that by cultivating communication with the intelligence of the pure virtue qualities, you would avoid imposing your “conscious” mind on them, and let them act through you: that spontaneous flow is a daoist method of avoiding fixed emotional patterns that you mention above. This is not “removing the root”, but harmonizing and balancing the roots to return to the source.
long answer
From: singing ocean
Subject: General
Date/Time 2006-01-20 23:28:57
Remote IP: 154.20.12.53
Message
I think we are again running into the problem of semantics: any statement can be interpreted in many ways.>>”Do these two exist simultaneously, if yes, then it is only the way one looks at time that creates the possiblity the two are separate? If viewed as simultaneously, then the two are one, there is no later or early, there is early-later heaven?”
Primordial, early and later heaven are all simultaneous.
“How can impermanence or permanence exist if ultimately all things are infinitely present in each moment? ”
***************************************
>>”Because there is physical reality and Qi reality?”Yes! The only true permanence is change as we spiral back to the source of permanence.
>>”Who is it that is cultivating the connection with the pure spiritual reality?”
The collective five shen cooperate together to fuse themselves back into their original self.
>>”1. Is there a space where the Collective Intelligence is not Individualized?”
Primordial heaven; chaos-unity
>>”2. Why would the collective create five shen that are not integrated, what benefit is it to do this?”
In the process of “stepping-down” into physical matter (slow moving vibration), the inertia of contraction manifests as a feeling of separation from the source. The source is still there yet is (falsely) felt as being distant. This may be an unintended side effect of physical manifestation.
>>”3. Why do you choose the words “Inner Will”, why not something like “natural response” or “Destiny of Creation”. Why is it “Will” is necessary for harmony, is this a natural aspect or process of our life, like a heart beats, lungs breath? If not what is the benefit of it?”
You may be familiar with the sentiment expressed in this society of feeling “out of control of your life”; we are under many outward projecting influences to be pulled out of our center by competing interests. It takes an intention of will to create balance and harmony, and go deeper into our own center. This is different than “going with the flow”, or just letting things happen, which may result in balance but will be a longer process.
>>”Does Lao Zi agree with these ideas, that one must “complete” themselves, does he believe humans are complete as they are?”
What is your opinion? Lao Zi talks about cultivating virtue in the self, family, community, world etc. If we see the virtues as aspects of the five shen that we connect with to return to the source, maybe he is talking about completion or maybe something else.
>>”How can energetic possibilites combine without physical or spiritual manifestation? Is this fragmenting these three inseperable aspects of our life, can you influence one and not the others?”
The energetic possibilities can go either way; towards the physical or the spiritual. The jing, qi and shen are all different frequencies on a spectrum of vibration, and are connected; when you put one into motion with will or intention, the others move also.
I think that by cultivating communication with the intelligence of the pure virtue qualities, you would avoid imposing your “conscious” mind on them, and let them act through you: that spontaneous flow is a daoist method of avoiding fixed emotional patterns that you mention above. This is not “removing the root”, but harmonizing and balancing the roots to return to the source.
*******************************
>>”Aren’t you splitting or separating “You” from the intelligence of the virtue qualities? Are these different, can you ever escape the influence of the five shen/elements, if so how?”The “you” in the sentences above refers to the author of the previous post, Max. Our manifestation in the physical plane is a result of the interaction of the five shen and is inseparable from them.
>>”What comprises the conscious mind?”
The mysterious unknown gives birth to the one, which spirals into the two making three, and five shen. Why isn’t this crystal clear? We perceive this source from our perspective on the proverbial mountaintop of the physical plane looking into the foggy distance. We have created a conditioned self divided into a polarized pair of what we think of as being the “conscious self” and the “unconscious self”, both in separation and resistance from the pure virtue qualities of the inner witness of the original self.
Re: long answer
From: singing ocean
Subject: General
Date/Time 2006-01-21 16:45:48
Remote IP: 154.20.12.53
Message
The collective five shen cooperate together to fuse themselves back into their original self.
************************************************
>>”Can you explain the difference between the five shen and the original self?”The five shen are the stepped down phases, cycles, streams or elements of the original self that allow it to experience polarity in a dynamic relationship. Separating, they manifest out, uniting they return back to the source.
Our manifestation in the physical plane is a result of the interaction of the five shen and is inseparable from them.
********************************************************
>>”If we are inseparable from the five shen, implying one inseparable whole, how can the five shen split at death?”Our physical bodies hold the portals to each of the five vital organ shen; at birth we may or may not have a particular balance or imbalance depending on our ancestors, astrology and geomantic forces at time of conception and birth, and growth through this physical life. The jing, qi and shen may or may not become integrated during this life; if one or more of them have irreconcilable differences and cannot agree with the others then they separate and our collective human form is recycled back. Obviously all of this is happening on many different levels: at death the physical organs do not separate and leave but they do stop cooperating and functioning together. The consciousness of the five shen then either continues to function together in the formless realms or remains split as they were during the physical experience.
short answer
From: singing ocean
Subject: General
Date/Time 2006-01-20 23:46:34
Remote IP: 154.20.12.53
Message
“The Way gave birth to the one,
The One gave birth to the two,
The two gave birth to the three,
And the three gave birth to the ten thousand things.
The ten thousand things carry Yin on their backs, and wrap their arms around Yang.
Through the blending of Qi they arrive at a vital state of harmony.”-Lao Zi, Ma-wang-tui 168 BC
(Chapter 42, text A)Re: bagua’s…5 Shen, FREE WILL in Earth & Heaven
From: Michael Winn
Subject: General
Date/Time 2006-01-21 10:59:01
Remote IP: 216.110.115.114
MessageNothing wrong with action – taking action is an essential aspect of free will. If we cannot take action, we don’t feel free. All outer action is preceded by inner action, which could also be called imagination – the activity of the five shen together creating a reality as an act of personal will. A perfect reflection of the action of the greater (cosmic) self in creating the reality in which it can also microcosmically act.
******************************
How is “activity of the five shen creating a reality” an act of free will? Who’s free will?— You are not a puppet, there is no God outside of you creating your thoughts, feelings, and perceptions. You self-create. You missed what I wrote. Let me say it a different way: There is only ONE will that exists, but it has many ways of experiencing and shaping itself, ranging from Original Will to Collective Will to Individual Will. All wills co-exist simultaneously and influence each other, as they have common origin. Your perspective on will depends on your level of cultivation.
—–When greater trust exists, more chi is released to flow into the lesser levels of self, and thus more power to exercise more free will. “Spiritual immortality” is simply a way to conceptualize/describe this process of developing responsible individual will that is allowed to exercise its creative imagination in more dimensions.
*******************
Is the followong another way of saying this, “Individual will attunes to the cosmic self/creation/intelligence”, so attunning is an alchemical process, and as you mentioned the taoists have lots of ways to attune?
———-Attuning can only happen by resonant rapport (in chinese, gan ying). It is the fundamental principle of how the life force works. It is an alchemical process if you are using the principles of the life force to guide your process, to resolve apparent differences and bring out deeper truth and give it greater substance.
************************
Special and important question!!!!!!!!!!!!!!The question, do the 5 shen have any reality? is really asking, does any level of the cosmic process have a reality? Or the underlying question really is, what can we say about that “reality” that would deepen our experience of it?
*********************
Ssome taoist literature seems to imply the five shen can scatter at death, implying they are not really you/self???— false conclusion. 5 shen are the awareness PROCESS of your local human self, a process that is by definition cyclical and thus temporary in form. Its illusion to consider the physical self permanent, but also illusion to consider the process illusory. the Process is REAL.
Are the five shen inseparable from the individual self?
— they are one set of parameters to define the individual self, give it boundary and direction and body. but that doesn’t make them separate from the collective or original self.
At death does the individual self split too?
—vague question. split from what? probable answer: you shift to other levels of self, there is no “split”. The “individual self” is just a mini-collective mirror, and at death it gets recycled to the macro-collective self.
If the five shen scatter into the collective, what happens to the individual self?
— depends on its level of integration and free will attained. If shen and jing have not integrated in the alchemical marriage on earth, they will not stay integrated in heaven. As above, so below. and vice versa. Its why alchemy stresses so strongly creating a vessel – the integration of jing, chi, and shen – while still in a body. You have greater free will in a body than in the sea of spirits.
That’s why spirits come to earth – to learn to manage free will. You have a mission/destiny to complete; completion brings integration.Opponents of Free Will comes from those aspects in heaven and earth that believe in Celestial Hierarchy, rule from above, and granting of power to individuals below who serve the Hierarchy.
They hate free will, and offer power to tempt many from the Right Use of Free Will in order to prove it is a failure, that it results in chaos and war and violence.
If that sounds like a religion/priest hood/political structure you know….time to wake up.
…and use your free will to smell the roses and embrace the unique freedom you have to live in harmony and balance with the whole, to love it without being controlled by any level of it. Your free will comes from Origiinal Being, and cannot be taken away by any Deity or Power structure on earth or in heaven.
That is my interpreatation and experience of the spiritual freedom offered by realization of the Tao.
Michael
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.