More on Rideforever..cont. from earlier thread.

[Michael Winn]

Pardon the delay in answering, I’m travelling abroad.

I’m not impressed by your response.

It’s more Osho-talk. Spinning words about topics you don’t understand. Saying it’s just my ego getting defensive. That you are only presenting a view. WRONG. I’m saying you are not entitled to judge a practice until you try it. The practice here is not just qigong – it is its integration with Inner Alchemy.

And when I said “i’m not as good as those Taoists”, I am NOT ego-competing with them. I am talking about my spiritual SKILL level. But psychological types like yourself will see everything through the lens of ego-psychology.

You are equally off when mis-quoting me about Qi being equal at all levels. I said everything is made of Qi. But you haven’t studied alchemy, so you don’t know about the many qualities and dimensions of Qi the Taoists use.

Or you try to take cover under other famous Indian gurus.

Let’s take Ramana Maharshi – a 16 year old teenager who was suddenly overshadowed by his oversoul and didn’t have a clue how to integrate it into human life. He had no method – it was simply his karma to be overshadowed. So he couldn’t teach anyone else how to get there, but because he himself had no clue how he got there. In India, that’s enoughd w to make you a saint, even though you have done nothing to achieve it.

I appreciate that he was successful in advertising to the world that the Primordial /Oversoul level of existence is real. In fact I read ALL his collected writings, to see if Ramana really had any genuine insight about the Primordial. My conclusion: he was uneducated, and so when pressed to define his spiritual life, he merely copied the ideas of popular Indian teachings and texts. Very little original insight. He had no clear explanation of his own. And that’s probably normal for a personality that got a download of primordial qi, more than he could handle. Not judging him, just observing who he really is.

His main contribution was to give people a simple method of questioning their habituated Self or personalitiy.

WHO AM I?

or as Alfred E. Neuman put it, “What me worry?”

But the problem is, he could never give any useful advice on how to integrate his ordinary personality with the primordial Self that was overshadowing him. So he was essentially an escape artist. I believe it was the tension between the two that eventually killed him.

He died relatively young, age 7o, of bone marrow cancer. That was a message from his jing, his embodied self, to his shen. Basically his embodied self said to the mental-self, if you are not going to love and honor me (the individual body-mind), then I am taking you OUT OF HERE.

His disease reflected perfrectly his attitude toward this life. The bone cancer manifested his own resistance to integrating the Primordial down into the personality level.

So Rideforever, i can understand why you also love Ramana – he also wanted OUT.
But death is the easy way out.

But if he had taken the alchemical approach of loving his jing, qi, and shen, and of coupling the primordial and personal selves, then I’m certain he would have lived another 30 years and had far deeper insights to share with others on how to copy with being HUMAN.

Again, you want to quote Lao Tzu. But the translations you quote are not even by people who can read chinese – they are pop translations off of other translations. And even most of the Chinese scholar translations are not by Daoist adepts who would understand the deeper content of Lao Tzu and his clear qigong comments like “A Sage breathes through his heels”.

The scholar-idiots, whom you so greatly admire, haven’t a clue what this referring to. But qigong adepts of a high level know instantly he is talking of breathing Qi into the “heel channel” of the yin/yang chiao mai, two of the Eight Extraordinary Vessels. Heel Breathing roots the adept deep into the earth, it GROUNDS the personality in a soul-level Qi channel.

So quoting poetry or blathering on about someone’s philosphy is not a substitute for hard earned alchemical work. Again – you are totally ignorant of what this work is – which is fine and normal. But you cannot resist making judgements about it, nonetheless, which is why I’m calling you on it.

You’ve been studying qigong ONE YEAR.
I studied qigong for SIX YEARS AFTER I was certified to teach before I felt that I understood it well enough to actually teach others.
I waited 15 YEARS before I began teaching inner alchemy at the Lesser kan & Li level. I wanted to be absolutely certain that I was guiding people down a viable path.

So it’s easy for me to spot someone blowing a lot of pretty words, aka hot air.

The Way of Inner Alchemy is not for fast-food samplers grazing in the spiritual marketplace. It requires discipline and training. You are an engineer. That is at least 22 -24 years of education, lifetime total. That is just what it takes to get a foundation in elementary school, then high school, colllege, and grad school.

So what’s the big deal if someone takes 5 or even 10 years to get a high level spiritual education? “too complicated….” Well engineering looks complicated to the uneducated as well.

Hope you get my point. I could go on and on and on….but it might get boring.

Blessings on the Way of Highest Engineering,
Michael

—–

An Intelligent Approach to the Human Situation

From: rideforever
Subject: General
Date/Time 2016-01-22 06:05:50
Remote IP: 78.147.146.213
Message

Yes, well I think it is a good approach, don’t over-reach I didn’t say Qigong shouldn’t be practiced. It seems anything said is met with that kind of defensiveness. That’s just the ego.

I am offering a view. Nothng more nothing less.

You can indeed follow “teachings”. And then you go to a workshop, see a teacher, and you do what they do. And then after that you see another and another one and another. And so on.

So Qigong practitioners do that. They basically copy what they are told.

This is quite different from other spiritualities which simply seek to wake up.

So, that’s okay. Qigong can help for sure. But we also have to see that being dependent on other human beings is not the greatest plan is it. Are human beings so realiable – perhaps we should seek to be dependent on reality instead. That would be better.

The ego strongly defends itself. It has lots of great excuses.

It is interesting how you described your initial experiences with Indian spirituality because you always talked about energy. That was your experience with the spaxe between the breaths : big energy man !!!

And then interestingly you said you met some Taoist people and you realised:

“I am not as good as them”.

That is a big thing to say. “Not as good”. Your own words.

It’s all a competition isn’t it, more levels, more power, more energy. Being as good. I want to be as good as them. Hell of thing to say for a man looking for truth. Isn’t it.

And you seemed to gravitate to Indian teachers who are all about energy and techniques and sex-mad : here is a tip, those teachers who went to America were indeed like that.

Not once did I hear you talk of devotion or soul, or consciousness. Didn’t seem interesting to you.

But … you went to high school in California in the 60s, tried a lot of drugs, LSD, speed, whatever. Winn, am I wrong in thinking that this name is full of “powerful people”.

So it seems your entry into the path was in that vain. Power, energy and so on. Get high, go big.

BUT, look at Ramana Maharshi, probably the most famous Indian sage. He said simply “abide as the self”, and spent his days looking after his cow Lakshmi. But seems he wasn’t interesting to you.

Not “powerful” enough. Not “exotic” enough. If you spend time with Ramana Maharshi you are not going to be “as good as” anyone, are you.

Right ? So I think you story is very coherent and clear.

It has given me a lot of information to ask such questions of you. And … there is a possibility of you listening to what I am saying. BTW I am only interested in your Qigong techniques because of your unique mix.

Steven would never say anything like to you. He plays by the rules. Who would ? It is easy to find ourselves in positions were we are never questioned.

Once again I am not saying that there is anything “wrong” with alchemy and qigong and so on. And after all these years I am sure you Qi is of an enermous calibre, I don’t doubt it.

I just make some observations in general.

Turning it into a RIGHT / WRONG conversation is just the ego-mind again. That’s how it functions, always YES/ NO. The ego-mind operates through accumulation. Power, energy, women, chi kung techniques.

As long as you are reacting to “I am not as good as them” … then there is a slavery to this inner movement. You are tied to it.

Okay … so let’s take one of your big points, that all Qi is equal, everything is made of Qi, you progress gradually and so on, there is no sudden awakening.

Well do I really need to challenge this ?

Look at mankind in general destroying everything. Why ? Simply because they do not have self-knowledge. You don’t think giving a man a ladder when he needs it is going to help … because ALL QI IS EQUAL. Ridiculous.

It is like when you see a baby knocking milk over … do you say:

“Oh, you know, having studied Alchemy and been to 8 sacred mountains of China, I am not going to do anything because all Qi is equal”

No, of course you are not going to do that. You show him what to do. Right ?

Same if you have been hiking on a mountain, and you can’t find your way. It’s unclear. You try a few different, walk 5 minutes this way, 5 minutes that way, and find your way.

But also you might down one of these paths see the peak … and then you can orient yourself towards. This is sudden awakening. Actually not a bigger deal than going hiking. Just extending your real world experience into the spirtual domain. Easy.

Right ?

Here is another question for you, say you walk into a public restroom and it is covered in shit. Do you say : “well, heaven will not let me in if I have a love/hate relationship to these humans, so I am staying here” ? No, of course you don’t. You go find a clean place. That is also one of heaven’s lessons.

Of course there are times when it is also useful to stay in the dirty restroom. There is also a lot to learn there.

Personally I like to try and experience both. This is real Kan & Li. You experience everything, and this is what I suggest to you in all these comments. I thought that was your path as well ?

So whilst I heartily condone your very wonderful and powerful Qigong transmission which brings inumerable benefits, I think it is wise to keep one’s ears open, and be a little wary of accumulating energy or money or power or whatever. Yeah it’s useful … but …

Everyone has enough time to listen to Ramana Maharshi.

Finally I would say something in a different direction; When it comes to Lao-tzu, here is a quote from Lao tzu :

“Be like this tree. If you are useful you will be cut and you will become furniture in somebody’s house. If you are beautiful you will be sold in the market, you will become a commodity. Be like this tree, absolutely useless, and then you will grow big and vast and thousands of people will find shad under you.”

“Absolutely useless.”

Your quote is : “I wasn’t as good as them”.

These are completely opposite. Do you see ?

What I am saying here is that Qigong is not Lao-Tzu’s teaching.

Though it has its own merit.

[RichieRich]

​Hi Michael

Enjoyed your response.

You write​

And even most of the Chinese scholar translations are not by Daoist adepts who would understand the deeper content of Lao Tzu and his clear qigong comments like “A Sage breathes through his heels”.

The scholar-idiots, whom you so greatly admire, haven’t a clue what this referring to. But qigong adepts of a high level know instantly he is talking of breathing Qi into the “heel channel” of the yin/yang chiao mai, two of the Eight Extraordinary Vessels. Heel Breathing roots the adept deep into the earth, it GROUNDS the personality in a soul-level Qi channel.

When I did QF with you in 2013, you similarly remarked about scholars not understanding Lao Tzu’s statement about breathing through the heels. And your remark came to mind a while back when I was flicking through a copy of the Encyclopedia of Taoism that I’d borrowed from the library, and came across the entry zhongxi (“breathing through the heels”) (pp1286-7).

The entry, by Catherine Despeux, and which can, happily, be viewed via Amazon, notes that

A study by Hidema Ishida (1988) shows that shows that zhongxi designated in antiquity one of four kinds of breathing: through the skin, through the nose and mouth, through the throat (to absorb the celestial breath), and through the heels (to absorb the earthly breath).

This morning I found a review of Ishida’s essay by Pregadio who writes

Ishida Hidemi’s Japanese contribution (“A Study on ‘Breathing with the Heels'”) examines the practice hinted at in the enigmatic passage of the Chuang-tzu: “The Realized Man breathes with his heels, the common man breathes with his throat”…First Ishida examines various sources to show that the expression chung-hsi, is not mere metaphor, but signifies the circulation of one’s breath down to the heels between inhaling and exhaling (hsing-ch’i…or ‘circulating the ch’i‘) . One of the texts analyzed is the famous ‘Inscription on the circulation of ch’i‘…dating from the fourth century B.C. Interestingly, Ishida resorts to the Lao-tzu to explain some of its key terms. Next, he describes the theory of respiration in classical Chinese medicine, showing how chung-hsi is related to the later notion of the four ch’i-chieh…(‘ch’i thoroughfares’) in the head, the chest, the abdomen, and the feet. In the third part he examines other breathing techniques: in particular those expounded in the writings of the patriarch of T’ien-t’ai…Buddhism, Chih-i…(538-597), and the Taoist ’embryonic breathing’…

So it does appear that some scholars have at least some understanding that what Lao Tzu wrote was “not mere metaphor”!

[ribosome777]

Wow, this is like Winn being dunked after decades of insulting the Buddha!
Maybe he’ll breathe through his heels!

[c_howdy]

Cycles of Time: An Extraordinary New View of the Universe is a science book by mathematical physicist Roger Penrose published by The Bodley Head in 2010. The book outlines Penrose’s Conformal Cyclic Cosmology (CCC) model, which is an extension of general relativity but opposed to the widely supported multidimensional string theories and cosmological inflation following the Big Bang.
-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycles_of_Time

In Buddhism, the three marks of existence are three characteristics (Pali: tilakkhaṇa; Sanskrit: trilakṣaṇa) shared by all sentient beings, namely impermanence (anicca), dissatisfaction or suffering (dukkha), and non-self (anattā). These three characteristics are mentioned in verses 277, 278 and 279 of the Dhammapada.
-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_marks_of_existence

In Buddhism, the term anattā (Pali) or anātman (Sanskrit) refers to the perception of “not-self”, recommended as one of the seven beneficial perceptions, which along with the perception of dukkha and impermanence is also formally classified among the three marks of existence.
-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatta

Rasāyana, रसायन is a Sanskrit word, with the literal meaning: Path (āyana) of essence (rasa). It is a term that in early ayurvedic medicine means the science of lengthening lifespan, and in later (post 8th-century) works sometimes refers to Indian alchemy.
-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rasayana

The Kalachakra (Sanskrit Kālacakra, Tibetan: དུས་ཀྱི་འཁོར་ལོ།, Wylie: dus kyi ‘khor lo; Mongolian: Цогт Цагийн Хүрдэн Tsogt Tsagiin Hurden; Chinese: 時輪) is a term used in Vajrayana Buddhism that means wheel of time or “time-cycles”.
-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalachakra

…sabbe saṅkhāra aniccā — all saṅkhāras (conditioned things) are impermanent…sabbe saṅkhāra dukkhā — all saṅkhāras are unsatisfactory…sabbe dhammā anattā — all dhammas (conditioned or unconditioned things) are not self…

Historical Buddha’s teaching about anatman is very simple to understand so challenge is how to relate to this kind of realization.

In my opinion Shakyamuni is not disparaging body but being realistic.

Also his teachings in this respect seem to have been first of all reaction against his contemporaries who have been speculating or maybe channeling information which is very hard to verify.

HOWDY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDQmzyADgTw

[RichieRich]

I’m sure Michael wrote as he did because he’s come across numerous scholars who haven’t understood Lao Tzu’s meaning.

The scholarly work that has understood it is, arguably, somewhat obscure. I only stumbled across it whilst randomly browsing the Routledge Encyclopedia of Taoism. And the work referenced there (by Hidemi Ishida) is published in a Japanese edited collection which may not have been translated into English.

So if it failed to register on Michael’s radar, it’s not altogether surprising.

I’m sure Michael’s delighted that some in the academic world have grasped Lao Tzu’s meaning.

[Steven]

I need to correct a misconception here.

The phrase “the Sage breathes through his heels”
is found NOWHERE in Lao Tzu’s (Laozi) Tao Te Ching.

It is found in the writings of Zhuangzi (Chuang Tzu).

Chuang Tzu was a contemporary of Lao Tzu, who promoted many of Lao Tzu’s ideas and wrote many detailed stories around Daoist philosophy of the writings. The writings of Zhuangzi (Chuang Tzu) form the second most popular Daoist text, with the Tao Te Ching being the first.

Given the fact that the Tao Canon has over one thousand texts, many of which are held with regard, and many of which are alchemical, it is not terribly important to make the distinction, but it is important to not spread the misconception that the phrase “The Sage breathes through his heels” was said by Lao Tzu, when he said no such thing.

Steven

[RichieRich]

Correction duly noted! The first sentence of the Routledge Encyclopedia’s entry on Zhongxi couldn’t be clearer.

Breathing through the heels is first mentioned in Zhuangzi 6 which states that “the Real Man (zhenren) breathes through his heels whereas the ordinary man breathes through his throat”…

But I missed it!!!

[daoman]

Thank you for this very interesting answer, Michael!
You clearly state what is the ID of the Daoist path: Working on integrating all levels of the individual being into the Dao. I wish I was an english native speaker.I would participate more. But perhaps in that matter (forums),less is more 🙂
I also take the opportunity to thank Steven for his contributions, always helpful.
Be well everyone!

[Michael Winn]

Howdy, love the serpent image, thanks.

Bottom line: historically, Buddhism DIED in India because bodies kept appearing. This suggested that there was some kind of Self causing them to appear, and no one believed the theory that there was No Self.

Buddhism only survived because Tibetans revived it, mixed it with other teachings, modified it. – Michael

[Michael Winn]

Thanks for sharing this research,Richie.

Yes, modern scholars are getting better at looking at the esoteric side, especially after harold roth’s Original Tao treated the entire Tao Te Ching text as a meditation guide.

But they still did not identify the Eight Extraordinary Vessels.

And my bad, it was Chuangzu in this case. – m

[Michael Winn]

The CORRECTION is that I have never insulted “the Buddha”, only perhaps those who later tried to make a religion out onf his efforts to ease the suffering of some human souls by reminding them that their physical existence would eventually end and with it their suffering. That was a great TECHNIQUE.

As a religion, it had so many contradictions that they had to keep re-inventing it, each time of course claiming that Buddha has whispered some secret clarification on his deathbed. Thus Hinayana, Mahayana, Tibetan Buddhism, Chan Buddhism, and their numerous offshoots.

But taking a dive into the dunking pool looks pretty refreshing way to cleanse off the crap that is sometimes being spouted on this forum about qigong…..:). – m

[c_howdy]

http://www.strippingthegurus.com/stgsamplechapters/thai.html

Stripping the Gurus:
Sex, Violence, Abuse and Enlightenment*

by Geoffrey D. Falk

CHAPTER XIII

THAI SURPRISE

Confucius say, “Man who go through airport turnstile sideways going to Bangkok.”

APPROXIMATELY 95% OF THE SIXTY-FIVE MILLION CITIZENS of Thailand (capital, Bangkok) are Buddhists.

More than 350,000 monks and novices live in Thailand’s 35,000 temples—ten monks for every temple, on average. Tenets enjoindered on those devout monks include strict injunctions never to touch intoxicants or women.

Clearly, such restrictions would not constitute an easy or exciting life.

As if to break such monotony, then, we have the renunciant monk who proudly exhibited over sixty vintage cars—many of them Mercedes-Benzes. Some of those were donated, others were purchased with money from his temple treasury, with the claimed investment intention (though questionable business acumen) of opening a museum to benefit that church.

There was also the monk “caught on camera wearing a wig and enjoying a nightlife of loud karaoke singing, boozing and other taboo acts” (Ehrlich, 2000).

There was, further, the highly respected former Buddhist monk, accused of possible embezzlement of funds, who stepped down as spiritual adviser to the prime minister. That, after having also been accused of having sex with some of his female followers and living a lavish lifestyle. “His monastery came complete with the latest sound equipment, elaborate furnishings and luxury cars” (PlanetSave, 2001).

There was the deputy abbot who was recorded, in fine voice, engaging in phone sex with women (Thompson, 2000).

There were the monks accused of selling amphetamines and of hiring some of the country’s 700,000 prostitutes (Economist, 2000). “Two girls for every monk.”

There was the Chivas Regal-drinking, Mercedes-driving abbot who was disrobed for allegedly … er, disrobing. With two women at the same time. Two nights in a row. While impersonating an army special forces colonel—a serious crime.

A subsequent search of the holy man’s private residence turned up pornographic materials, lingerie and condoms. As well it should, for a monk who was renowned among local law-enforcement officials for going out on the town nearly every night.

There was also, by abstinent contrast, the forty-year-old Buddhist monk who, as a protest against the sufferings of those in his country, planned to immolate himself on the steps of the Burmese embassy in Bangkok.

As he spoke, I discovered an astonishing thing: although he planned to take his life to protest the great injustices he had fought against for many years, this was not the real reason for his decision. The true reason was that he had fallen in love with this young girl. He had been in monk’s robes since age fourteen and for twenty-nine years he had given his life to the order. He had no other skills and couldn’t imagine himself married, with a family, yet he loved her. He did not know what to do, so burning himself for political reasons seemed the best way out (Kornfield, 1993).
There was—speaking of burning—the Thai monk who gruesomely roasted babies—already dead babies, thankfully—hoping to utilize the oil collected from them in magical ceremonies. That was done with the intention of creating a “babyish ghost,” to be employed in the black magic manipulation of others (Ehrlich, 2000).

There was, even more horribly, the monk accused of raping an eleven-year-old girl.

There was the Buddhist abbot arrested for the alleged murder of a woman whose remains were discovered floating in the septic tank at the house of a neighbor (Ehrlich, 2000).

There was, finally, the monk caught committing necrophilia in a coffin beneath his temple’s crematorium.

Thai surprise.

http://www.strippingthegurus.com/stgsamplechapters/thai.html

[c_howdy]

…there are limitations in Hindu yoga practice which are addresed in the Taoist methods taught here…
-http://forum.healingdao.com/general/message/18868/

The Hindu methods are as complicated and actually many of them one can find easily from books.

HOWDY

http://www.amazon.com/Systematic-Course-Ancient-Tantric-Techniques/dp/8185787085

[c_howdy]

The Trikaya Doctrine (Sanskrit, literally “Three bodies or personalities”; 三身 Chinese language Chinese: Sānshén, Japanese Language Japanese: sanjin) is an important Buddhist teaching both on the nature of reality, and what a Buddha is. By the 4th century Common Era CE the Trikaya Doctrine had assumed the Form that we now know. Briefly the Doctrine says that a Buddha has three ‘bodies’: the nirmanakaya or created Body which manifests in time and space; the sambhogakaya or Body of mutual enjoyment which is an archetypal manifestation; and the Dharmakaya or ‘Reality Body’ which ’embodies’ the very principle of Enlightenment.
-http://www.chinabuddhismencyclopedia.com/en/index.php/Trikaya

The Sambhogakāya (Sanskrit: “body of enjoyment”, Tib: longs.sku) is the second mode or aspect of the Trikaya. The Sambhogakaya is a “subtle body of limitless form”. Both “celestial” Buddhas such as Bhaisajyaguru and Amitābha, as well as advanced bodhisattvas such as Avalokitesvara and Manjusri can appear in a “enjoyment-body. A Buddha can appear in an “enjoyment-body” to teach bodhisattvas through visionary experiences.
-http://www.chinabuddhismencyclopedia.com/en/index.php/Sambhogak%C4%81ya

… as a religion, it had so many contradictions that they had to keep re-inventing it, claiming that Buddha has whispered some secret clarification on his deathbed…

For Buddhist it would be correct to think that these new phases would be result of new revelations given actually not at all in physical form.

HOWDY

[Author]

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