Home › Forum Online Discussion › Philosophy › My interpretation to Singing Ocean – “correction” (con’td)
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April 4, 2006 at 12:08 am #12355FajinParticipant
Singing Ocean,
Let me simplify. The Chinese say that the kidneys store jing and the stronger that your jing is, the stronger your will is. This does not have to do with spirit, this is related to jing or kidney hormones. If you had no jing, you would have no will to do anything, even breathe, as you are dead. Jing exists on every single plane there is, because spirit would not be able to do anything alone in that plane, it needs a physical body; hence, the desire to reside in a physical body.
Why I say that this ego-will is yin-yang because it is the heart-kidney or fire-water relationship. The personal heart shen is the manifestation of all the other shen emotionally and it expresses the desires, passions, and emotions. So, negative ego, can be compared to heart fire rising, it should be descending to warm the kideys. The same goes when jing is plentiful, one should convert it to qi, the best use of our free will. More jing = more free will because more jing means more qi since qi comes from jing, and so we then use qi to work with shen.
So, free will exists ONLY if jing exists. If there is no jing, there is no free will. Spirit is desire because that is what makes it go to a physical body. Simply, spirit wants to become free but needs the jing, and qi. Trace back to Michael’s wheel analogy of expanding the whole wheel with jing, qi, and shen. Now, we have the necessary will to free spirit but because negative ego (spirit) is acting against our free will, we see free will as totally controlled by the ego.
However, this is not true, free will is ONLY INFLUENCED by the ego, not the ego, because ego is 5 shen manifested through personal heart shen. Heart = ego, kidneys = free will. Wether early heaven or later heaven, free will is there if jing is there, so wherever jing is, free will is too. But remember, the level of free is dtermined by the graspiness of the ego. So many spiritual paths attempt to detach from the graspiness into emptiness like Chan.
Regards,
FajinApril 4, 2006 at 1:57 am #12356baguaParticipantHi Faj:
very nice presentation, very nice. Some comments for clarification.
faj:
So, negative ego, can be compared to heart fire rising, it should be descending to warm the kideys.
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Are you just saying an imbalance causes heart fire to rise and negative ego to manifest? So clear heart fire and do six healing sounds or fusion 1 to balance the situation? And does heart fire rising cause the negative ego to manifest?faj:
The same goes when jing is plentiful, one should convert it to qi, the best use of our free will. More jing = more free will because more jing means more qi since qi comes from jing, and so we then use qi to work with shen.
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If one has the goal of living a spiritual life and lives their daily life with that in mind, does this naturally convert jing to shen? In the sense your Yi is focused on living a spiritual life?Faj:
So, free will exists ONLY if jing exists. If there is no jing, there is no free will. Spirit is desire because that is what makes it go to a physical body.
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does the spirit always have a body, in some form, in all realms?Faj:
Simply, spirit wants to become free but needs the jing, and qi. Trace back to Michael’s wheel analogy of expanding the whole wheel with jing, qi, and shen. Now, we have the necessary will to free spirit but because negative ego (spirit) is acting against our free will, we see free will as totally controlled by the ego.
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If spirit wants to be free, why did it take physical form?Faj:
However, this is not true, free will is ONLY INFLUENCED by the ego, not the ego, because ego is 5 shen manifested through personal heart shen. Heart = ego, kidneys = free will. Wether early heaven or later heaven, free will is there if jing is there, so wherever jing is, free will is too. But remember, the level of free is dtermined by the graspiness of the ego. So many spiritual paths attempt to detach from the graspiness into emptiness like Chan.
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Emptiness allows one to percieve life, it is not nothing. it allows one to be enligthened by all things. It is the realization we are the myriad things, we are the collective, while at the same time an individual energy center.AND most importantly, what is the function of the negative ego, what value does it have, why did Wu Ji create this potential?
thanks,
bagua
April 4, 2006 at 2:36 am #12358singing oceanParticipantMore jing does mean a stronger will, but more Zhi in the kidneys does not mean automatic free will in my view.
I think free will is the harmonization of ALL the conditioned jingshen (vital organ shen) to work together and create neutrality. In this sense, all the positive and negative aspects of ALL the vital organ shen in the conditioned self work together. The heart, kidneys, lungs, liver and spleen all have aspects of positive, negative and neutral and therefore the potential for free will. A higher level of free will would be the harmonization of all the five phase pure virtue qualities into the center whether crystallizing that through raw conditioned yin-yang jing or the refined frequency of the pure virtue quality of jing. Free will is then the yin-yang cooperation of all the jingshen into neutral.
I think it is true what you said earlier though that the original self had the will to polarize itself (if you want to call that desire, which is a loaded term), and therefore create other levels of will (five phases, etc.). In a sense, also the higher yin-yang-neutral expression of all the vital organ shen cooperating is the fire-water relationship, but that was not clear in what you wrote if that was your meaning.
Good to remember also that the heart and kidney both contain inner aspects of positive, negative and neutral: it is the inner fire of the water and the inner water of the fire element that combine to create the higher expression of neutrality.
April 4, 2006 at 8:44 am #12360FajinParticipantHello Bagua,
You proposed some interesting questions, I’ll take it from the top.
>>Are you just saying an imbalance causes heart fire to rise and negative ego to manifest? So clear heart fire and do six healing sounds or fusion 1 to balance the situation? And does heart fire rising cause the negative ego to manifest?<< *We know that eating red meat will make the heart fire rise according to TCM right? This, in turn, will cause emotions of anger, aggressiveness, impatience, etc. to arise and the sympathetic nervous system to take command. So, yes, I am proposing that the heart fire rising indicates an ego out of control. When you eat foods like dark green, bitter foods, it causes calmness, peacefulness, and the parasympathetic nervous system to take command. If the six healing sounds or fusion, or whatever does the job can act out on a deep enough level, ie. emotionally, ego may be controlled. The heart-kidney relationship is imho, the ego-will relationship. >>If one has the goal of living a spiritual life and lives their daily life with that in mind, does this naturally convert jing to shen? In the sense your Yi is focused on living a spiritual life?<< *Well, we both agree that the jing to qi translation occurs naturally, and so I'm guessing that the qi to shen translation also works naturally. But, inner alchemy is a way to speed natural evolution and work on the translation more directly. I don't think that the intent to live life a certain way will improve the translation much, but the intent to shape the life force will. >>does the spirit always have a body, in some form, in all realms?<< + >>If spirit wants to be free, why did it take physical form?<< *The main question here is, "why did spirit want to reside in a physical body?" I think that I will leave this to Michael as he will speak of soul completion, I don't want to start this again, Bagua. >>Emptiness allows one to percieve life, it is not nothing. it allows one to be enligthened by all things. It is the realization we are the myriad things, we are the collective, while at the same time an individual energy center.
AND most importantly, what is the function of the negative ego, what value does it have, why did Wu Ji create this potential?<< *Bagua, I understand that emptiness is not nothing. It is something, I gave my scientific interpretation of it, which, I believe, seems very accurate because it compares Eastern cosmology very well. I also understand that it must be experienced, words cannot define the experience, only distinguish or characterize it. If heart fire rising indicates negative ego, then the purpose of negative ego would mean that it is a by-product of living in a physical body negatively in an unspiritual nature. I think that my first answer to your first question covers this somewhat, requires some reflection, however. This is only true if the whole heart-kidney relationship is true, which I have demonstrated as my theory. Nice questions Bagua, Fajin *
April 4, 2006 at 8:58 am #12362FajinParticipantHello Singing Ocean,
If we have prenatal virtues of kindness, love, etc., then wouldn’t we have postnatal anger, hatred, etc.? This is why I say that negative ego is a by-product of being in this body. Not simply being in this body, but how we CHOOSE to live in this body, which, again, is influenced by karma and other factors, but all in the body.
If all soul aspects of ourselves have the potential for free will, what was the purpose of residing in this physicality? I don’t understand what you mean by creating different levels of will. There is one will, free will. In this body, we are free, only it is our negative ego that measures that “freeness”.
I agree with you that inner fire of kidney and inner water of heart combines to create neutrality. It’s like an atom that contains neutrons, protons, and electrons. Like Bagua says, all natural processes try and reach a state of balance and harmony, and so we should live with this intent to allow this. So too, I think that we should create the proper, or natural, ratio of positive, neutral, and negative in the kidney-heart relationship toa allow maximal free will and radiant virtues to shine forth.
Smiles away,
FajinApril 4, 2006 at 12:08 pm #12364baguaParticipantH Fajin:
Couple more questions.
If negative ego is a by product of living in an unspiritual way, than is the negative ego some mechanism or a signal to a person to make a change?
If yes, when we look at the history of humanity, is this mechanism or process effective?
If Wu Ji willed itself to polarize, can it will itself to not polarize anymore?
bagua
April 4, 2006 at 12:47 pm #12366FajinParticipantBagua,
More interesting questions that I’ll gladly answer.
>>If negative ego is a by product of living in an unspiritual way, than is the negative ego some mechanism or a signal to a person to make a change?<< *Well, the thing is that I do agree with Michael that there are other influences too, like planetary and karmic as your spirit is eternal and ego is shaped by what happened in past lives. I know, I know, you will probably say that this is Buddhist/Hinduist and I do agree with you. However, from what Michael said about this alchemical process, we work on those soul patterns. Like I said about the heart fire, this is postbirth as this is a by-product of living in an unspiritual way and so this must be worked on. The heart fire rising is a manifestation of not all the ego patterns, but just the one in this body, ie. postbirth. And is not the only signal to make a person change. The postbirth patterns of heart fire which can be dealt with practices like 6 healing sounds and fusion are just one signal. There are those other patterns too, like karmic for example. So, the alchemical process works on those. Of course, I did not experience this yet as I am saying this from my knowledge of it. But, if the alchemical formulas do help one to effectively work on those patterns, than ego is taken care of. We use the life force of planets, suns, stars, etc. to help us work on those patterns. So, we are SHAPING the life force to work on the ego in this way. >>If Wu Ji willed itself to polarize, can it will itself to not polarize anymore?<< *If that was a possible choice, but it is not because wuji is not concsious. Only conciousness made that choice, and so it is spirit that chose to polarize out of desire. Desire is not really a choice, but a direction. We see stepping down again. Keep asking if you want, your CHOICE, Fajin
April 4, 2006 at 5:08 pm #12368baguaParticipantHi Fajin:
fajin:
*If that was a possible choice, but it is not because wuji is not concsious. Only conciousness made that choice, and so it is spirit that chose to polarize out of desire. Desire is not really a choice, but a direction. We see stepping down again.
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Please clarify.In the order of evolution, when is this consiousness created. You are saying Wu Ji did not polarize itself, who decided to do this and where in this Wu Ji-Yin-yang and Five Phase process did this occur?
thanks,
bagua
April 4, 2006 at 7:21 pm #12370FajinParticipantBagua,
I will happily answer but I would like to ask you to afterwards comment on this and tell me why you have been asking me, ok? Thanks!
Now your answer:
Wuji carries infinte potential and is brought about through desire or intent, whichever. I like to refer to it as desire, but may be called intent (yi). Through wuji, all the colour and sound frequencies emerged that make up the dimensions or early heavens (I believe more than one).
Individual concsiousness or yuan shen is simply this light (yuan) from the wuji that emerged. It simply wants to continue evolving in an endless eternal process. Shen or spirit, is light in higher oscillation (early heaven, higher oscillation or vibration if you will) that becomes independent through intent. So, this concsiousness becomes individualized from the greater collective totality. This individualized concsiousness or self-concsiousness now, desires or intends to continue to evolve. It needs to create a “space” to do so and steps down into a level where it can polarize.
The thought frequency travelling at the speed of light, which is the speed of oscillation occuring at this density or dimension, allows the cyclical process of polarization. Then, I think you get the rest.
So, “when” is an invalid answer because time is eternal at the level of shen, meaning there is no beginning and no end. Shen began polarization. So we are shen, ie. we are positive, negative, and neutral ego. This goes back to when Michael said, WHO is attuning to the center? Although, we chose to step down into a physical body and polarized ourself so yes, we are also jing, qi, and shen.
This is very difficult to comprehend and requires alot of contemplation as I myself have done; although inner alchemy would help me get there faster. Through intent to shape ourselves into an individual consciousness, we do the same thing by creating a pearl or an immortal child, the intent to create. We are just reversing the process. We created ourselves through intent (I choose intent instead of desire) now we are doing the same to get back with the creation of the pearl.
Metta to you Bagua,
FajinApril 4, 2006 at 7:23 pm #12372FajinParticipantBagua,
I will happily answer but I would like to ask you to afterwards comment on this and tell me why you have been asking me, ok? Thanks!
Now your answer:
Wuji carries infinte potential and is brought about through desire or intent, whichever. I like to refer to it as desire, but may be called intent (yi). Through wuji, all the colour and sound frequencies emerged that make up the dimensions or early heavens (I believe more than one).
Individual concsiousness or yuan shen is simply this light (yuan) from the wuji that emerged. It simply wants to continue evolving in an endless eternal process. Shen or spirit, is light in higher oscillation (early heaven, higher oscillation or vibration if you will) that becomes independent through intent. So, this concsiousness becomes individualized from the greater collective totality. This individualized concsiousness or self-concsiousness now, desires or intends to continue to evolve. It needs to create a “space” to do so and steps down into a level where it can polarize.
The thought frequency travelling at the speed of light, which is the speed of oscillation occuring at this density or dimension, allows the cyclical process of polarization. Then, I think you get the rest.
So, “when” is an invalid answer because time is eternal at the level of shen, meaning there is no beginning and no end. Shen began polarization. So we are shen, ie. we are positive, negative, and neutral ego. This goes back to when Michael said, WHO is attuning to the center? Although, we chose to step down into a physical body and polarized ourself so yes, we are also jing, qi, and shen.
This is very difficult to comprehend and requires alot of contemplation as I myself have done; although inner alchemy would help me get there faster. Through intent to shape ourselves into an individual consciousness, we do the same thing by creating a pearl or an immortal child, the intent to create. We are just reversing the process. We created ourselves through intent (I choose intent instead of desire) now we are doing the same to get back with the creation of the pearl.
Metta to you Bagua,
FajinApril 4, 2006 at 11:30 pm #12374baguaParticipantHi Fajin:
The reason Im asking these questions is to isolate the beginning, the creation of polarization. Because some posts seem to cover lots of ground, i prefer to stay focused on this one issue.
Fajin:
Wuji carries infinte potential and is brought about through desire or intent, whichever. I like to refer to it as desire, but may be called intent (yi). Through wuji, all the colour and sound frequencies emerged that make up the dimensions or early heavens (I believe more than one).
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Is it Wu Ji that has this intent?
Is it Wu Ji that has this desire?If no, then what does have these in the Wu Ji field, becuase it came out of Wu Ji?
How does one go from Wu Ji to polarity without Wu Ji directing it?
Fajin:
Individual concsiousness or yuan shen is simply this light (yuan) from the wuji that emerged.
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Why did it emerge? Can it emerge without the support and direction of Wu Ji?Fajin:
Shen began polarization. So we are shen, ie. we are positive, negative, and neutral ego. This goes back to when Michael said, WHO is attuning to the center? Although, we chose to step down into a physical body and polarized ourself so yes, we are also jing, qi, and shen.
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Why did it polarize? What is the purpose?thank you for your focused feedback.
bagua
April 5, 2006 at 12:16 am #12376FajinParticipantBagua,
OK, no problem I’ll continue answering and hopefully we get somewhere.
In the beginning, the very beginning, there was Wu Ji and only Wu Ji, right? If this is correct than that means that no other factors lead to the Wu Ji beginning the process of creating, meaning that Wu Ji DOES have intent. Like I said, as is written in Dao De Ching, Wu Ji created 10,000 things. So, we know that Wu Ji must have the intent to express itself in every way possible.
Light separates the faster-than-light world and slower-than-light world and so it is yuan. Wu Ji created yuan and yuan polarized into yin and yang. Concsiousness always existed, wether in the formless potential with yet no level of intent of the Wu Ji with yet no level of intent, or where it is at in its evolved state right now. It always seeks evolution and so when yuan was manifested from the Wu Ji, conocsiousness took the form of that spiritual light and was in the evolved state of shen. Shen is pure intent (better than desire), and because the level of intent was strong enough to continue the evolutional process, it polarized. Intent was like the spark of polarization.
The intent of Wu Ji to continue its expansion of creating allows consciousness to continue evolving. Consciousness simly took the form of light and became shen. It’s because there is a high level of consciousness in the light, the oscillation is higher than qi, and remains in early heaven. Spirit consciosness or call it just shen, desires to continue evolving and must then polarize. Intent does that.
Here is a question for you. What did Wu Ji create. In the Dao de Ching, it says Dao begot one, then one begot two. So, Wu Ji begot ONLY one, right? This would have to be yuan, because only yuan can polarize. Polarization occurs because of the continuous desire of the original spirit to evolve and obtain the highest form of spiritual evolution, freedom. So, it steps down onto the level that allows freedom, on the jing frequency, which is will itself. That will can only be fre will if it is the ego’s desire or intent to be free. What do you think, makes sense?
My modern physicist research shows that the black holes emit colour and sound radiation. This is spirit in its primitively evolved form. The sound vibration and colour frequencies are what make up the dimension. It allows for evolution, which only concsiousness can allow.
I’m just trying to follow what modern physicists are saying and what the Dao de Ching says, and putting my entire experience of the Dao in this theory. It may not be exactly right, but I think that I have grasped the essence of the whole creative process and stepping down. I would like to hear if you have any more questions or comments, Bagua.
Thanks for asking, my pleasure,
FajinApril 6, 2006 at 7:15 pm #12378baguaParticipantHi fajin:
Faj
In the beginning, the very beginning, there was Wu Ji and only Wu Ji, right?
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Yes, in a way that is all there still is, depends how you want to view existence.Faj
If this is correct than that means that no other factors lead to the Wu Ji beginning the process of creating, meaning that Wu Ji DOES have intent. Like I said, as is written in Dao De Ching, Wu Ji created 10,000 things. So, we know that Wu Ji must have the intent to express itself in every way possible.
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The Tai Ji did this, you skipped a step.
Also, when in the past I mentioned you are being linear, I meant this model of Wu Ji-One-Yin/Yang-Tai Ji to all things did not happen step by step, but all at once and still exists this way.Faj
Light separates the faster-than-light world and slower-than-light world and so it is yuan.
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Yuan means original, why do you insert it there?Faj
Wu Ji created yuan and yuan polarized into yin and yang.
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What term in the process of Wu Ji-Yin/Yang-tai chi to all things is Yuan, where are you placing it in this process?Jaj
Concsiousness always existed, wether in the formless potential with yet no level of intent of the Wu Ji with yet no level of intent, or where it is at in its evolved state right now.
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Define consciosness in the Wu Ji state please?Faj
It always seeks evolution and so when yuan was manifested from the Wu Ji, conocsiousness took the form of that spiritual light and was in the evolved state of shen.
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please define spiritual light?Faj
Shen is pure intent (better than desire), and because the level of intent was strong enough to continue the evolutional process, it polarized. Intent was like the spark of polarization.
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Why do you assume it took some intent to continue evolution, didn’t Wu Ji provide the energetics for the process to continue?Faj
The intent of Wu Ji to continue its expansion of creating allows consciousness to continue evolving.
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This is clearer and more consistent. It not only allows it, it drives it?Faj
Consciousness simly took the form of light and became shen. It’s because there is a high level of consciousness in the light, the oscillation is higher than qi, and remains in early heaven. Spirit consciosness or call it just shen, desires to continue evolving and must then polarize. Intent does that.
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Your presentation is fragmented. Your words read as if Shen is independent and some how came up with the desire to intent or is willing it. But Wu Ji is the always the driving force, it always existed and always will exist in each person.What do you mean consciuosness simply took the form of light, it has the choice not to? Or is it just the unfolding of Wu Ji’s energetics.
Faj
Here is a question for you. What did Wu Ji create. In the Dao de Ching, it says Dao begot one, then one begot two. So, Wu Ji begot ONLY one, right? This would have to be yuan, because only yuan can polarize.
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Wu Ji created one, this includes time and space, one creates two, this is time and space activated. There is no need for tao alchemy at this stage, its just natural unfolding and humanity is not created yet.Faj
Polarization occurs because of the continuous desire of the original spirit to evolve and obtain the highest form of spiritual evolution, freedom. So, it steps down onto the level that allows freedom, on the jing frequency, which is will itself. That will can only be fre will if it is the ego’s desire or intent to be free. What do you think, makes sense?
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Polarization occurs to create time and space and the physical manifestation, not need for spiritual evolution yet. You imply all of creation was made so your spirit can evolve.Most references to ancient taoist culture impy humans were in tune with their spiritual aspect of life, no need for alchemy, they were spiritualy evolved.
Just my thoughts and experiences,
bagua
April 6, 2006 at 8:04 pm #12380FajinParticipantHello Bagua,
I will continue from your replies but first some questions of my own. You asked me, now I’ll ask you.
Bagua, can you tell me why heaven is termed early and later. Why don’t they just call it heaven, why do they distinguish? I am interested to hear your answer.
Also, why are you concsious in your body, and not my body?
Will concsiousness have an end? Did it have a beginning?
What is the difference between time and space?
I would like to continue this, but your view is quite different from mine and until I understand you further, there is little point in proceeding becuase we will just keep going in circles.
Thank you,
FajinApril 6, 2006 at 8:26 pm #12382baguaParticipantHi faj:
I will get back on that, may not be until tommorrow.
bagua
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