March 10, 2005 at 12:19 am #3135
Thank the Tao that there are more opinionated souls than I otherwise there would be no one to have followed guiding me to Tao so I could find the True teacher myself 🙂 Inner Peace and Smiles to all.
I know it is hard for many to accept, but enlightenment and being an asshole, confrontational, giving, “loving”, virtuous, whatever, have not much at all to do with each other. Please don’t take my word for it though, figure it out for yourself. I can say that there is nothing the matter with virtue to help one on the Way but once it is obtained, it practical application wanes. That is not to say that one becomes a BTK lunatic, rather, you a naturally what and where you are.
Last time I checked, I have called many kettles black, have messed up this and that, made friends and made enemies (and quite honestly, I am not that bad a person :)).
The Fox thing intrigued me for a bit and then last night when the “energy” came to me, it showed me a fox as the bliss came through. I was laughing my ass off!
This just meant to me that possibly Plato (asking you and speaking of you) experienced the Kundalini or Universal Life Force or whatever one chooses to call it.
I recall the words of Sri RamaKrishna who said something to the extent (I know I am not quoting it exactly right, but) that God will come to those who seek him in the way that is close to the seeker. Further, from my own experience, after this occurs, you can be REALLY AFRAID. Actually, I had to “conquer” fear althogher before it came in the first place and afterwords was just brutal. To me the experience that was described is quite possibly the Life Force and when the conditioned mind/ego tries to comprehend it, well, there are various versions of freakin…
After my experience like that, I read in a book about Kundalini and how this person described it as taking over the person, so amazing and powerful like having sex with God. I myself felt that. And even recently have read some stuff from another Kundalini Master who described it the same way but even more explicit. In later experiences, I have communicated through telepathy and in conversation (as was mentioned in another post here). But that is another story for another day.
My question to Michael and Plato from here is…
What is your take on this perspective (this apparently Universal Experience as described in traditions all over the world)?
MattMarch 10, 2005 at 9:11 am #3136
I am so glad you brought this up. I was dropping obnoxious mental viri hoping this would happen.
If anyone remembers the old Chia books, the end of the white cloud formulae end with the real yang kundalini coming up.
Interestingly, this is when the real work of ANY cultivation school begins.
I am approximating here, but the whole joke to me was when I realized that the “highest” of the white cloud formulae is actually low-level stuff if that at all!
“How can that be!” you all will cry! “Lao Tzu visited me in a dream in a cave and told me to walk up the mountain instead of running! I cried as a goat led my shoe-less ass around some granite rock to see Master Shu! We are all integrators here and your divisiveness is damagin the group pearl! You are a Buddhist yet your ‘un-virtuous’ posts hurt my feelings!
Of course, nobody in the Healing Tao system got the yang kundalini to come up in the way the classic taoist books talk about, so shouldn’t this be a clue as to something?
“Oh no! I looked at a picture of mistress cow and my kundalini came up! I was a kundalini master but couldn’t integrate it so I took up cooking in the deep center!”
Well, maybe you should go read some books by Master Nan. Or a Bill Bodri book. Nan is the only a recognized enlightened master by the Buddhist esoteric school, the Taoist school, and the Zen school.
“Nonsense! Bill Bodri doesn’t have enough footnotes! Master Nan doesn’t even know the microcosmic orbit! Hell, I can’t read a book over 200 pages–I only have a G.E.D. I like blue cool aide! Why do you jump around from practice to practice? You should learn how to ride a broken bicycle before you get one that works! I am not a US citizen but the goddess protects me!”
But then comes Spyrelx with the best stuff yet:
“Your ego is so massive. Your cock is too! You have no right to call me a loser even if I have had zero success with women in my life and refuse to become a high status male who is successful with women. I have more issues then a magazine stand! Why are we even talking about HSM stuff in an alchemy convo? lol”
There, my seeds have been planted in the woman of your minds.
P.S. Spyrelx, fuck you! LOL!!!!!!March 10, 2005 at 9:46 am #3138
It is really so sad to see you like this. No sarcasm (well, a little bit in my title – but I’m not comparing you to a swine, I just like the bit about pearls going unrecognized), no guile, no anger, just sad.
I remember my first post to the HT board around 7 years ago. I was so excited that my idols on the board – Eric Yudelove and Plato Rosinke – replied to my post in a really helpful and heartfelt way.
Then, sadly, Eric went crazy when his wife died. And, now, sadly, you seem to have lost your center.
ChrisMarch 10, 2005 at 1:50 pm #3140
I’ve never met Plato but i have sympathy rather than anger towards him as he is obviously hurting a lot.
We’ve had a lot of fun with this fox thing at his expense. I think he should know that there’s a lot of people here holding a space for whatever completion that may take place for him. This is the healing tao after all.
in our light
mike 🙂March 10, 2005 at 4:03 pm #3142
IMHO on the issue of ‘No mind’ meditation vs. Energy work, I think Plato is correct in the beginning and in the end. On squaire A, day one, you really ought to work on a smooth clear mind. By squaire’s XYZ you should be running smooth and clear, no techniques or trying. Who can really argue accumulating virtue is bad?
I just think that in the middle, you have balls and a body. If we look at this alchemical stuff more as ‘Natures’ lanquage, then the higher practices are more poems then a dogma to be followed. If they do your body good, keep’em. If not drop’em. But the language that you’ve picked up along the way is invaluable.
MichaelMarch 10, 2005 at 4:29 pm #3144
I am not advocating pure mind training.
Body-based techniques are wonderful.
However, when I analyze The White Cloud Formulae they way they were originally transmitted to Chia they appear to be a series of form-based, energetic manipulations constructed to allow one to let go of the body and the ego and arrive at a state of empty mind–where the real path begins.
Since I find it questionable if such activities will allow you to ultimately let go, my thought is that Chia misinterpreted it and put the cart before the horse–creating a classic case of semblance dharma.
More evidence for this notion of mine, is that White Cloud’s Taoist Alchemy is more like a description of what happens inside the body when one follows pure mind training!
What I know is that Michael Winn didn’t resolve this core issue. He ignorantly assumed that the White Cloud stuff is the way to immortality, and then modified the formulae as he saw fit!
This has produced a false path since the fundamental premise is wrong.
This is not about Plato vs. Winn or Buddhism vs. Taoism, it is about correct cultivation vs. incorrect cultivation.
Hence, my concern.March 10, 2005 at 5:05 pm #3146
Or perhaps there are different points of view on the same subject.March 10, 2005 at 5:10 pm #3148
When I was in High School, my favorite English teacher told me 2 things when I graduated to help me with my life:
1. Everything Is Not Relative.
I was very fond of using your style when I was 17. I found out very quickly that it was ineffective because it was based on falsity.
Yes, there are different points of view on the same subject–but only one correct one. Don’t be lazy–we have plenty of time to arrive at a conclusion.
2. Never Enough
This was his oracle-at-delphic way of saying that I am an asshole. Like I am being on this board right now. 😉 Or was he saying something else?
Like the oracle at delphi, he was a crafty man!March 10, 2005 at 11:21 pm #3150
I totally agree that everything is not relative. But enlightenment isn’t a pop quiz, there are many ways.
For me the top 2 spiritual fallacies are.
#1. What works for you will work for other people.
#2. What works for you is actually working for you.
Beyond technique or philosophy, maybe some people have a spiritual knack that takes them far deep into spirituality just by dumb luck temperament.
Its better to judge a martial arts teacher by the calliber of there students, then by whatever Juice they personally have. You’ve seen more of his Winns higher level students then I. Were they balanced? Happy, Healthy Energetic? Spiritual?
The bunch I ran into at the BAsics Course seemed to be really good people. Actually pretty fun loving and knew there way around a meditation
also rereading some of my earlier posts, some of my writings were offensive and juvenile. Sorry. The bottom line is that you are a senior student who’s writing these things to help us.March 11, 2005 at 12:54 am #3152
I think #2 is pretty funny.
Hey, this board is supposed to be offensive and juvenile. It has always been that way so you don’t have to apologize. I love the constant flames.
You are also correct that I am writing this to help you guys and gals. Believe me, there is nothing I would rather do then never return to this board. It is an utter waste of my time when I take into account that I have a business to run, and a ton of other goals. Posting tires me out after all these years.
Thing is, I view you all as my responsibility. I have spent so many years on this board learning and growing and that doesn’t give me the right to abandon you all and say “hey, they don’t get it and it is a waste of my time to try and convince them so fuck them.” I have to give it a fair try, and so I will be back again and again over time.
We are the future of Taoism.
I know this will piss people off and they will say “who is this arrogant person talking like this” and “who does he think he is?”
I trained for one day with Vladimir Vassiliev and I asked him how he could move the way he did. I told him I thought it had to do with the spaces in his joints. He looked me dead in the eye, smiled and said “I trust myself.”
I thought he was keeping secrets.
Only a few years later do I understand his genius. From studying with Scott Sonnon I know I was right–it is about the joints, but in order to open up the joints you need more then the Body Flow course. You need to trust because lack of trust was why your joints locked in the first place. The exercises give you a window to restablish your trust in yourself. Once you have done that, then trust keeps it that way. So from Vladimir’s point of view the answer was indeed “trust yourself.”
Furthermore, it was obvious to him that I would have figured out the technique, but the thing I would never have figured out was the trust part.
So this is why I don’t care if I sound arrogant to someone. Responsibilty lies with those who know. Blame lies with the ignorant. That’s why blame is useless.
Those who know have to find a way, for if they don’t, then who will?
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