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July 25, 2009 at 9:47 pm #31943singing oceanParticipant
Yup, makes sense to me. Thanks for the clarification.
July 25, 2009 at 9:49 pm #31945singing oceanParticipantThat sounds a little condescending.
July 25, 2009 at 9:56 pm #31947singing oceanParticipantNei Yeh (Inner Training), P.101-103, “The Philosophical Foundations of Inner Training”
I agree with what the author says here, but find that there is something missing in his explanation, and also problems due to language and translation.
A large part of the issue is that the Author takes a “philosophical” approach, Whereas I tend to view things as a practitioner.
Western authors tend to confuse the term “Xin” as mind, whereas I think it really refers to the consciousness of the heart, more clearly, the “heart-mind”, or “body-mind”, the consciousness of the five shen (see discussion below).
The author translates “Vital Jing” as “Vital essence”…essence has the connotation in the english language of being a refined and concentrated substance, whereas Jing has the connotation of being a thick and fluid form of energy with regenerative qualities that support the physical form.
He also translates “Tao” as the Way (the path, the only way? destiny, or fate? The flowing unfoldment? this is unclear), that could mean many things, I would therefore translate Tao as The Great Process with connotations of consciousness to it, but ultimately unknowable.
Note that the author does confirm that “Most important for Inner Training, when we can store it within our Heart Mind, we become sages”.
P.101-102:
Harold Roth tends to mix up the terms vital energy and vital essence, or at least always see the essence as the progenitor of the energy, a one-way transformation, and not a two-way process. This is apparent in this quote: “The vital essence, it is the essence of the vital energy”(P.101)…he draws the conclusion that jing gives birth to qi, and so starts inserting that view into places where it is not present: “Therefore this [form of] vital energy [that is, the vital essence] is…”(P.102), then goes on to say “as a cosmic power or force, the vital essence resembles the very Way itself”, which of course is true if one takes a holographic view of the universe, that each particle contains the entirety of the whole, but I would say that it is the interaction between the jing-qi-shen that really resembles the Great Process, the entirety of the process of transformation.P.103 (Roth):
“Although constantly moving in and out of the mind, the Way can come to abide within it when one cultivates tranquility (quiet, calm, peace) through the regular and systematic practice of breathing meditation. Though beyond dualistic concepts and pronouncements, it can be apprehended directly within this cultivated, or “excellent” mind. These passages do not suggest that the Way is sometimes present within human beings and at other times absent. Rather the way is always present. However, the awareness of this presence enters the human mind only when it is properly cultivated. This emphasis on the potential of people to experience the Way is also paralleled in how Inner Training discusses the Vital Essence…”Lets see how much the connotations change when a few words are substituted:
(Roth)
“Although constantly moving in and out of the Heart-mind, the Great Process can come to abide within it when one cultivates quiet, calm and peace through the regular and systematic practice of breathing meditation. Though beyond dualistic concepts and pronouncements, it can be apprehended directly within this cultivated, or “excellent” Heart-mind. These passages do not suggest that the Great Process is sometimes present within human beings and at other times absent. Rather the Great Process is always present. However, the awareness of this presence enters the human Heart-mind only when it is properly cultivated. This emphasis on the potential of people to experience the Great Process is also paralleled in how Inner Training discusses the Vital Jing…”You can see how much the meaning is altered when a few words more familiar to practitioners (rather than scholars) are changed. Let me give a few thoughts on this paragraph:
Breathing meditation? this is suggested within the text, but from the perspective of a practitioner, there is more to it than that that the author has already commented on (storing the shen within the jing).
I would replace “apprehended” with “realized”.
I would also clarify that it is not only the “awareness” of the Great Process entering the Heart-mind, but that the human Heart-mind becomes a microcosm of the Great Process itself, embodying the Process from within the human Heart-mind.Wow, I think my next profession should be as a daoist scholar.
July 25, 2009 at 11:00 pm #31949singing oceanParticipantI do agree that I’m in the process of transformation. I answered in the way that I did because your answers seem like they seek to encompass all points of view, but I am still left with the feeling of not being sure exactly what has been said.
I was trying to paraphrase what your approach is in order to communicate more clearly, but maybe it was an oversimplification. I should note that I get the feeling certain issues are being avoided here, so to get to the heart of the matter as you said:
“All this does not address the fundamental topic, are we the tao now, do we have everything we need now or are we creating something that does not exist now?”
Please read my post above that talks about the cultivation of a skill, but I’ll paraphrase for brevity: Humans are, and always have been a part of the Great Process (the Tao) from birth to death, we swim in the process containing all elements, yin, yang and yuan always and are connected to all levels of its being in each moment. By following its pattern (yin-yang-yuan, the five phases) and accelerating its process (alchemy), we are able to experience more embodiment of the Great Process than if we had not, we are more aware of its movement because a resonant (gan-yin) microcosm has been cultivated within.
In short, no we are not creating something new, we are cultivating embodiment of a mini-version of the Tao’s movement within us so that we can communicate with it more easily, it is always present within us, but our level of communication with it has not always been the same.The real question is this:
“Do we use awareness/mindfulness to experience the Great Process (the Tao) within us, or experience it through cultivation of resonance with those forces within us.”
Yes this does imply that our ability as humans to communicate with the Great Process can be improved, in much the same way that someone develops a skill or an achievement (gong).
For example, if the process of mindfulness/awareness of the Tao is used, do you think that the skill of practicing that has never changed for you or has it deepened and become easier to practice?
July 25, 2009 at 11:43 pm #31951singing oceanParticipant1. The vital jing of all things:
2. It is this that brings them to life.
3. It generates the five grains below
4. And becomes the constellated stars above.
5. When flowing amid the heavens and the earth
6. We call it ghostly and spirit (shen).
7. When stored within the chests of human beings,
8. We call them sages.My own paraphrase:
“”Vital Jing gives birth to all form
From the stars above
to the five grains below.
When it flows between Heaven and Earth
We call spirit.
When it is stored in the center of humans,
we call them sages.”As per your suggestion that “Zhong” refers to movement, thoroughfare as well as middle and center, or “chest” as the author translates it, this produces an interesting combination:
“When shen is stored in the central moving thoroughfare of humans, we call them sages.”
Channel: the course traveled by a body of water
Zhong: center, middle, moving, thoroughfare (a channel!!!)Humans are already in form, we are birthed from Jing – so for Shen to be stored in their center, it copuld mean that the shen is stored, mergecd and integrated within the Jing.
By saying “when” the Shen is stored within the Jing (form), we call that human a sage, it implies that Shen is NOT ALWAYS stored within the Jing, otherwise we would call all humans sages. We only call humans sages when they do have Shen stored within their center.Wow, maybe I’ll write a commentary on the Nei Yeh.
July 25, 2009 at 11:44 pm #31953singing oceanParticipantCan anyone translate what the character used for “Ghostly” on line 6 of the Nei Yeh, verse one is?
July 25, 2009 at 11:48 pm #31955singing oceanParticipant“Inner Training”
This title implies that some sort of practice or cultivation is taking place, so the purpose of the book (Nei Yeh – Inner Training) is to teach someone how to cultivate themselves inwardly.
Is the purpose or method of the text to cultivate AWARENESS of the Great Process of Tao, or is it to cultivate Jing, Qi and Shen (a resonant microcosm of the great process)?
July 26, 2009 at 12:06 am #31957singing oceanParticipantAs I have said, in Harold Roth’s writing there seems to be the quality of someone trying to psychologically understand what is an embodied experience for practitioners of alchemy. I would like to take the opportunity use some of the english translations of chinese terms that are more familiar to practitioners:
“Inner training defines virtue (te-inner power) in a very concrete psychological sense (an embodied experience). It is linked to both the vital Jing and the Great Process. It is what enables the sage to secure vital Jing, and it is the perceptible manifestation of the Great Process within human experience. It cannot be controlled by force or will or use of language, thus implying that it rises within awareness devoid of individual will and dualistic thought.”
I would agree with this completely except for the last sentence:
“Thus implying that it rises within awareness devoid of individual will and dualistic thought”
I would say: “Thus it becomes embodied within the Heart-mind containing both individual will and the will of the Whole, recognizing the Great Process as giving birth to yin and yang from an unknowable source of yuan qi.”
I think that the use of will does not directly produce the embodiment of the Great Process (or control it), but it does take will to initiate the practice. Will is instrumental in allowing the Process to spontaneously arise within a persons Heart-mind, in actively being a participant rather than a bystander.
July 26, 2009 at 8:55 am #31959DogParticipantIt is true I feel, that we are change. Thus Alchemy is only speeding what is. What is the process of change? For that is our process. Yin Yang is a child of us and we are a child of Yin Yang. May your prodigal children come home to rest. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_Prodigal_Son
July 27, 2009 at 11:01 pm #31961singing oceanParticipantIt is good to be in a process of transformation. It is also good to acknowledge being in a process of transformation, if things stayed in a fixed state, then the Great Process could not evolve.
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