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>>So, I think it’s time to tell you the game I’m playing… The reason I have not been giving you anything you can grab hold of, like Michael does, is because I’ve been attempting to demonstrate the difference between Taoism and Magick (there is method in my madness).<< That is very classy and yes you certainly succeeded in conveying what you intended! Thanks. Now I follow a good deal of what you said... but by no means all. We still have much to investigate so I hope you are up for it. I am enjoying this VERY much! You say: >>And now you’re probably wondering how I still havent understood your experience of Magick and how body centred it is for you etc.. I suggest you just put those doubts to the side for now<< Well yes I am wondering a *little*, and I don't think you can QUITE get rid of Gregory so quickly! We are of course a little at cross-purposes here. The 'Power Rangers' thing... I don't do that! Nor do I do anything involved with the kabbalah etc. I have said this before. The reason I am interested specifically in the Taoist map is - that there IS one, and when there IS one, I am worried about using it! Do you understand what mean? It is precisely the fact that when I am using a map I am no longer - well, free-form! - that makes me a little bit concerned. It is why in the past I gave up on every system that used one. I do not want to have to give up on this system too! So I must INVESTIGATE the map - obviously I can't necessarily do this talking with you, but I thought maybe I might! If I am to do a small beginning on a Taoist practice it has a certain 'structure' and is not at all 'blank'. The orbit and the animals are already cultural and they are already languages and symbols. They refer to a bigger picture which I must take on faith as being in some way 'true'. I myself much prefer to be 'blank', but Taoism as taught here does not allow this exactly. Let me tell you something Freeform. My motto used to be: "Even This Is Not The Answer". My motto now - that is the symbol I use to represent myself to myself (!) - is: [" "] - that is the best I can do (with this keyboard)! No progress can be obtained without reconciling what, in order to continue ego and desire (and death), we insist conflicts with something else. And yet all lives together as one - in the universe and in the body. I know, I know, only Taoism can understand the body! My belly aches automatically and I am over mental and prone to spend too much time on computers! (not that I did for the last 2 months...) Well read on... and ask yourself: were you so eager to think I knew nothing because I am a 'magician' that you did not read what I said? Did you think I do not understand, where there is a 'magician' there is also a 'not-magician'? Take the androgynes and sex. This I discovered only in magical way - I continue to practice magic and nothing else, although very few books seem to contain the magic I practice! (Perhaps it is 'not-magic'!) Now then, you say, 'what we're talking about here is *far* more ambiguous [than a physical object] - it doesn't exist in space-time in the same way as the cafe'. I must respond that I vehemently disagree! Spacetime is not the same there, I grant you. Why is it less REAL there? I am going to show you right now that, by the very things YOU said, the androgynes must be just as 'true' as the Cafe! BECAUSE - YOU say, remember - >>’you cant point at something and say “that’s X” because as soon as you do, it will turn into “Y”<< Do you not see - this means EXACTLY, that if you say "I am a man", you make a woman in the same moment! And this what Michael is talking about when he says there are four people in a relationship! And just as it is ALWAYS TRUE that saying 'it is X' makes it into 'Y' as well, so it is ALWAYS TRUE that as long as there are humans and they fuck, there will be a place in the universe (not the physical universe but certainly the universe!) where there are actually *androgynous humans* - by the very law of opposites which you invoke. If the X/Y law is true then so are the androgynes. They are as real as the Blue Cafe. There is even a specific place that you can find them. Just not a material place! Freeform if all the intangible things in the universe can be reflected in the body then they all do exist in definite places! I am still reeling from the Saturn's belt thing - but it only confirms what I mean. This is not something I found on any map - it something that I found in MYSELF - you would say perhaps in my own body. I do not see my body too clearly this way yet, and I think Taoism can help me! But I MUST see, if I am to take on a practice that has a formal structure and a training program which claims to 'progress' - that the map according to which it 'progresses' includes within it things I have already experienced. I think the reason Michael is prepared to tell me all that he does, is because he senses this is what I am saying. I am never happy nor comfortable if people say - here is step one and we know all the steps. And the reason is, I have only ever had magical success by not doing any of the things one is 'supposed' to do. But still I appear to have progressed! I already *do* know that the symbols are in my body. Why else would I say things were body-centred? I can feel them... in fact many times before now I have even felt what turn out to be acupuncture channels - again without any intention to do so - and bought atlases to try and see what is happening. I came to realise that they are symbols as well and have long known that all symbols must interact because that is what they are made to do. (Did you know Franz Bardon had acupuncture charts on his wall?) I have changed many of the things I wanted to and I am still using ONLY 'magic'. Now on this site Michael claims to have a language and model, that works with all things I have found. Has he in fact? None of the others ever have. I need to know! I need to join what he says to what I feel first - what I feel, freeform, not only what i 'know', symbolically. THEN I can spend much hard-earned cash and time. First I must see, what do people here think? Can I get on with them? Of course - sometimes yes, sometimes no! Now then, I do understand what you did, and I also understand now my sense that you were not playing fair. However I ALSO would like to tell you that I still do not understand some of what you *said* - why you said it - why you felt the need to say what you did after having read things I'd written - things that showed I already understood what you were so carefully explaining! I still do not understand - even though you have now explained! I still believe that you contradicted yourself or else did not play fair! And now you know why I want to understand. There was alot of tomayto/tomahto/let's call the whole thing off going on! Was all this just a game? It was not only, I say it's language and you say it's communication! What about all this business of 'filters' freeform?? You say that everyone walks around with his or her own filters, such that they could both experience the same conversation and have a totally different impression of it. (I think we have demonstrated that fact!) Also I think two people could be sitting in a Blue Cafe and each does not see a 'true' Blue Cafe. Each sees through their filters and so each sees something different. One is sad, the other happy. Our senses are also a language and our senses also go through filters. You seem to agree with this. So you think each of us walks around in his/her own world, basically! Why then is the idea that 'you create your reality' to be characterised as 'new-age bullshit' and 'utter bollocks'?! Why is it different to say, we each walk in our own world, from saying, we each create our own reality? This is what I mean when I say tomayto/tomahto... you see? You see why I asked, who does then? You laughed... but did you understand? Or take the thing you said just now - that when you call something 'X' it is also automatically 'Y'. You seem to believe I don't understand anything at all, from the way you try to spoonfeed this to me. Of course I know that this is true! Why else would I say that yin and yang exist whether we name them or not? The universe is built from the process of naming them. IT IS THE SAME THING AS YOU WERE SAYING FREEFORM. It isn't a language trick. But always you prefer to say no, no... as (the real) Yoda says: "Hear you nothing that I say?" Anyhow, whether these seem fair questions to you or not, you have helped me - even if the 'difference between Taoism and magic' is still not quite as easy to see as a cafe. Further, you have given me a good time, and already I am feeling a little bit closer to being satisfied - so thanks! love NN PS Austin Osman Spare - he say - "No man can show greater self-love, than by giving up all he believes". Or: "Verily, things are of necessity through their conception and belief. Then let us destroy or change conception, and empty the belief'. Does this sound like a magician addicted to his upper Tan Tien? The inventor of sigil magic himself - that you feel must be mental because it devolves upon belief that things must be a certain way, symbolised in a dead manner, ignoring the fact that they must equally be the other way too. He already knows this, and he *is* a MAGICIAN! He says when you believe something freeform, believe the other thing also. Then you are free. He calls it Neither-Neither. Do you want to know what 'NNONNTH' means? Nnonnth stands for what I wish for - always and forever. When I tell you about Spare's concept of neither-neither, I am sure that you can have a good guess what NNONNTH stands for (acronym)! But I will never tell. It is possible to be a magician and not blindly follow one's own symbols without realising anything. (I am not saying that everyone who followed Spare's path had a clue like he did of course - self-evidently not). To do so one must know reality and not only fantasy - this I recognise.
– please see other answer freeform, FREEFORM TRY THIS. I’ll come back to your “no-ruler” later if you like. – I think you’re wrong freeform, I think you’re wrong! – that is, I believe, YOU THINK YOU ARE WRONG – but I think also I have decided that with you a single conversation at a time is sufficient! NN
>>We are of course a little at cross-purposes here. The ‘Power Rangers’ thing… I don’t do that! Nor do I do anything involved with the kabbalah etc. I have said this before.<< lol - I didn't suggest you do the Power Rangers thing... Early on in my search I discovered a method of using 'process' instead of 'content' - where people all around me were raving about the content of the book, I would identify the various processes... instead of asking 'why?' I started asking 'how?'. Using this method I started deconstructing everything I came across in terms of process and constantly thinking that the content has no real value. It's hard to explain, but I'll try. I learnt to notice how people *code* and *decode* their reality and what effects this has on their behaviour - So my girlfriend would come home all upset, wanting to dump all the content in the open, waiting for me to say "why are you upset, hun?"... I rarely did - I would ask questions that would reveal how she coded her sensory data to arrive at the emotion... I would get her to reveal to me the process she used to get herself upset - the specific sequence of processing sensory data and how the sensory data was represented. Once I knew the specific process, we would play and shift the process about - we'd make sure that when she came across a similar situation she would run a different process... so for example sometimes she got really upset when her mum talked to her in a certain way - she'd get all depressed afterwards... so I found out what she did to make herself depressed, and then we shifted the process about - and she would never get upset when her mum talked to her in that way... (it worked like magic!!) So then I got into 'spirituality' - I discovered many models of spirituality, naturally I would deconstruct them and find the process behind it all. My first attempt at this was with magick... I took many rituals, jotted down the specific processes, took out all content (symbolism) and replaced it with my own symbolism (I purposly chose silly symbolism, as a way to prove to myself that the actual content doesn't matter - it's how you *use* it. So I would have the trusty Power Rangers clearing and balancing the elements - they would visit me in my dreams and advise me how to solve problems and get over difficulties (usually portrayed as silly rubber monsters! lol) - they were great, and helped me a lot! Next I got into deep meditation and Hawaiian Huna - the process behind meditation was harder to figure out, but it got me concentrated on my own 'processes' and how I do them... which helped. I noticed that Huna was very accurate in terms of not getting too stuck to the content and symbolism (which was mainly embedded in the Hawaiian language - which I couldn't be bothered to learn!) and it concentrated much more on the process - I combined deep meditation with Huna practices and got in contact with my lower tan tien. There was much more of an emphasis on kinaesthetic experience than I found with the magick practices - and this seemed to be really balanced. From then on I enjoyed learning about myths, mythology, stories, shamanism - deconstructing psychological and philosophical models (I was interested in these way before my deconstruction phase)... I attempted to find all the processes - and I did and noticed that there were similarities and correlation between all of these models; they were all a metaphor for how to reach spiritual maturity. So I decided - I'm not happy with any specific model I've found - so I'm going to take the very pure patterns and processes and use them without any symbolism and content... guess what... whenever I tried to nail down the patterns, I'd lose em - they made sense in my mind and body, but when I put them into practice bits were apparently missing - I was witnessing the 'elusive obvious' and it was kicking my arse. So I gave up for a bit - decided to just marvel at the absurd, ungraspable beauty of the universe, without making any significant, noticeable progress. "How do I do this - I'm so close to something big, but it's always out of my reach" - was the main thought in my head for some time. Of course over this time loads of little coincidences were happening - it's like the universe was smiling back and saying - "hey - you're pretty absurd, beautiful and most definitely ungraspable yourself!" And then I stumbled acorss Taoism, and specifically Mantak Chia - I read some books and discovered that I'd actually been doing quite a few of the practices spontaneously and decided this as a good sign. Found Chia a bit grating after a while and grudgingly started looking towards Michael for some inspiration - once I got some of his DVDs, I discovered that he was far less dogmatic, much more simple and flexible - I liked it! So I started deconstructing Taoist alchemy to scavenge the tasty morsels of meat... over time I noticed that the Taoist model was so well thought out, that even the content (which I usually ignore) was a microcosmic version of the process - why was this so? no idea - but I found that even though, for exapmle spinning the orbit wasn't 'real' (i.e. you had to train yourself to find it real) - it was having a very different effect than other practices with similar intentions. Why is taoism so effective? my suspicion is that they use their bodies as the ultimate map - there is no reason to go dig out some wise sage who will illuminate you with his stories of how he got to where he is now - all of that is right here *in* me - the map is already laid out, and it's in my body - not in some text, not in what Michael, or Chia or Ken Cohen or Kumar Frantzis say but right in my body - I didn't need to rely on someone else for my answers - and I liked it! Now that I've been practicing alchemy for a little while, I've begun appreciating the help that Michael gives - although the map to spiritual fulfilment is *in me* - it is also in him, and although these two maps are not the same there is again that elusive obvious correlation - and since Michael and others have walked way further down their paths, I appreciate their information on how they got there. Now I don’t consider myself a Taoist - more a mystical agnostic - and I use quite a few other practices (mainly from Huna - which, not only is very similar to Taoist alchemy, has a very sweet approach to it - effortless, balanced and usefull in the every-day kind of way). I also use all kinds of other tools, models, ideas - they often contradict each other, but I've become very flexible at taking the map as just a map - and not the territory it depicts - so I don’t get angry or confused when two maps don’t align, even though they promise to lead to the same destination... It's like having different coloured glasses - you can change to the colour that's most useful, and not get hung up when you see the same thing through different coloured glasses and realise that it's now completely different. I'm gonna have to stop for now - I'll answer your questions tomorrow, but at least for now, you'll know where I'm coming from. PS. Neither - Neither, Not That - Not That, Neti - Neti, "the map is not the teritory", the Zen Master's wave of the stick and my own words - as you've so eliquentily summarised: "But always you prefer to say no, no..." they're all pointing to the same elusive place (or at least pointing you away from your own illusions of that place)...
>>Early on in my search I discovered a method of using ‘process’ instead of ‘content’ – where people all around me were raving about the content of the book, I would identify the various processes… instead of asking ‘why?’ I started asking ‘how?’.
Using this method I started deconstructing everything I came across in terms of process and constantly thinking that the content has no real value.<< I understand completely and have done much that is similar, so now I understand why you 'sense a similarity between us' - apart from the fact that we like to wrestle of course. The content *does* have real value... the same value as the body... when it's *yours* and not just a diagram in a book... but if the process isn't right you do get distracted by *chasing* the content... that i never did... for me I never thought it was the process I analysed, only the motive... always the will... why THIS, why just THIS way... all the symbols were arbitrary... what is happening, why choose, why desire to do that?... for me desire is always the key (why the ruler as an alchemical object doesn't work! Even if you say it is 'orgasmic'... I can't believe it!)... is this what you mean by analyzing 'process'?... not going to do someone else's ritual, because it will make me into someone else!... but what is the desire and what is the thinking?... I have studied that and I like those guys... but where did it come from?... >>there is no reason to go dig out some wise sage who will illuminate you with his stories of how he got to where he is now – all of that is right here *in* me<< Yes of course... somewhat offended you think I need to know that... you still come back from the adventure and tell the tale in whatever language will get it across... the stories can always be fun and sharing fireside tales is a good thing... but there is nothing else, I never did anything else... I know it is all one thing... Problem: I don't always understand what I get as a process even though I'm in it... I could continue as I am... and sometimes I think the process is already known that I am going through, by someone else, at least partially... caught between continuing being completely independent or succumbing to a program... I'm glad to hear you say Michael's stuff is loose... I need people who are loose... >>guess what… whenever I tried to nail down the patterns, I’d lose em – they made sense in my mind and body, but when I put them into practice bits were apparently missing<< This is the part I *don't* get... you found patterns and you froze them into symbols, and could not revivify? What do you mean by 'putting them into practice'? Do you mean repeating exactly the same? Why was the pattern separate from putting into practice? Do you mean the language became dead? (Perhaps it is better to say that we are sigils rather than symbols... we must be *processes*, which means desires... this is how you can have a 'dead language' - no longer fucks, no longer generates, all meaning gone, shell only remaining... like that?) Coupla snapshots of last 12 months for me... it is far less diligent than you!... I don't understand ANY map really, so I never 'deconstruct' them - for me map is record of experience... only experience counts ever... so naturally, to spite myself, I accidentally find correlations between me and maps in doing the magic itself... they tease me just like you do... a part of me then says, see you could have followed the map of x... foolish doubt!... Sometimes I wish I could follow the map - but you encourage me by saying you still follow many/none... But do you do the same with practices also? - many/none? Or do you only do only one thing, one practice, with many maps, and if so how lay the maps on the one thing and which thing is it?? But maybe an impossible question... for me magic is best but I cannot even say what I do properly... ignore any impossible question... (On the other hand you also say the orbit is artificial? Please tell me does your orbit involve the feet or only the trunk and head? Does it involve the arms? I have an idea what you mean by artificial...) My method? 1st remove everything, then deconstruct *me*, what I am doing, why, how... the intent... always strongly connected to the people around me... to desire... to life... why did I choose to experience this?... always experience and desire... Gave myself sunburn in winter, indoors in London...!.... disappeared after ten minutes, happened twice... looked like I'd been on the beach 4 hours w/ no sunblock... face bright red, heat rash over body... in the yang/outside areas I guess... like blushing I guess... too much heat! So I gained control.... perhaps I could also give myself frostbite now?... I won't test!... I see now why it happened... why i desired to experience this... body-centred anyhow!... I give sigils sounds... please tell me, do Taoists sing or do they only dance?... I buy a book for actors on voice-coaching... when I use different sigils my body changes and my voice changes... I notice the sound I say... breathing slowly... it lights something up somewhere, follow it carefully... take away the vocal cords... watch the breathing... shape of word in belly activated by breath... let it vanish... shape my mouth and jaw to say the word... take it away, no shaping but the word still exists and I am still in some sense about to say it... still find intention and shape of sound somewhere... it causes the lighting-up... Is that a bit of an acupuncture meridian?... the sigil-sound has translated into an energy... some is in my body, some not.... later I find it is the TB meridian... two processes reflected each other... now I must discover - are they cold or hot? What directions do they go in?... but I work them with sigils still... both processes, both living languages, translating into one another... I think maybe meridians are REAL similar to signs of the zodiac... 12 of them, 4x3 and 3x4... Spare says how you get to 12 from one (but not using 5 like the Taoists)... also says it doesn't matter!... doesn't of course... Maybe I should have continued and not even bought acupuncture atlas!... but I like the fireside tales of others even if I do not suddenly say, now I will use this pattern and do 'meridian qigong!'... I cannot tell if this is what I'm doing or not, does it matter?... Difference between a symbol and a sigil... you consciously understand a symbol, but not a sigil... you make a symbol to represent 'I know this' - which is a limitation... you make a sigil to represent 'I don't know this'... which is a process of expansion... but I don't know if you did this ever, or used only Power Rangers etc.... (cool BTW!)... enlightenment is not my aim, I do not have an aim and I do not have a belief... yet still I progress!... Told a few people about it... that when you see a sigil you light up different bits of your soul... that when you take your breath to say something you are always making magic... one said: It is like Bardon's Kabballah!... No, please!... not the fuckin' Tree Of Life yet again!... no, no, apparently he does not use the tree... I checked it out... he takes individual LETTERS... not Hebrew... ANY... not whole words until letters are learned... like Mickaharic speaking is the way... you 'speak' not only physically... by binding them into yourself with colours and sounds and directions and parts of the body... very complete, very very advanced... processes that combine, like making the universe... from words, from letters, from soul/mind/body... not supposed to do until you have done other things of his 1st... doesn't matter... I can continue as I am... it is speaking but also all the senses... so i didn't buy it but I know I'm not crazy now!... plus Bardon writes uninspiringly/uninspiredly... (to my taste - what do I know?)... I think, I DO feel meridians here and the Taoists know meridians... maybe time to revisit forum... although I feel chakras too and they don't speak of this!... but OBE practice is a bust for now... should I read Kabballah of Bardon even though not supposed to practice?... I read the Bardon reviews on Amazon... one person says - "This is a very high Western Qigong"!... I think, definitely let's revisit forum... and here I am again. This is just a little piece.... also OBE'd for a month, now stopped it... not time to use it again for maybe three years... also use entities as sigils... to see where they live in my 'body'... do they have moods?... to find why I chose to make them at all... the re-absorb... always desire... observe not only others but myself very carefully when I'm in the world... comparative anatomy... all embryos are identical! wonder... I used to read magic books perhaps like you - what do these people do, why?... but recently I read nothing at all... I already know how to get where I want to go... now suddenly i read Spare and he has the same thing, very very excellent, now I know it can be done, and much better... he uses no structure so I am free to explore and he is more skilled... he KNOWS... he says, "Verily, in disappointment is his chance"... he understands the rhythm of life... uses its real structure and no artifical one... like when you 'gave up for a bit', or could not make dead symbols work - disappointment was your chance... now you make something and don't 'know' it... so you don't spoil and kill it by 'knowing' it... oh very very beautiful! ... it never runs dry for me and I am not searching desperately, never, UNTIL I try to shoehorn what I do into someone's 'training program', then I come unstuck always... my 'training program' is my life, and what happens in it, and never separate... it's why Spare appeals to me again, no program, and he says 'escape the driving MUST'... what I want to know is, is there something else that could be useful, especially since my sigils seem to be teaching me my meridians?... they anyway cannot be artificial, since points sing out cold and hot spontaneously before I even knew they existed... but you tell me what you mean when you say the orbit is learned and not real... then we can put it to Michael if you haven't already... I think he thinks it is very natural!... Classic judo player's move you did. Eat all their yang with a bigger yin. Nice one! But don't be a typical man! Don't come all over me, then roll over and go to sleep! NN PS - >>so I found out what she did to make herself depressed, and then we shifted the process about – and she would never get upset when her mum talked to her in that way… (it worked like magic!!)<< Weird, I do this with my lady also! Hands up anyone else?? Especially, a woman does this for her guy?? Didn't Michael say, I used my Taoist skills to attract a beautiful wife! Plus we do dragonherbs. And that's Taoist ain't it? Plus bellydancing. But this was a while back. Now she is aware. PPS >>my own words – as you’ve so eliquentily summarised: “But always you prefer to say no, no…” they’re all pointing to the same elusive place (or at least pointing you away from your own illusions of that place)…<< Cut the crap man! This place I visit all the time. This is the place I am returning from with my questions, don't you see?? This place needs better and better translation back into my life. I use the map to communicate something REAL which happened, an EXPERIENCE. Not a symbol! I use it because it is there to use for communicating with Michael, not because it is what I follow! It CAN mean. You CAN look at a painting and FEEL it, not just see it! It doesn't mean I think it's 'true'!
>>but you tell me what you mean when you say the orbit is learned and not real… then we can put it to Michael if you haven’t already… I think he thinks it is very natural!…<< Well Michael himself states on my cd that the orbit (up the spine, down the front) is the physical manifestation of an energetic movement which is an energetic pulsing in and out of your centre. By doing the orbit you pulse your energy. When I was doing Huna, I would do the Ha breath which is similar to the orbit, but also anatomically very different (connects at the back of the throat and not at the tongue/pallet point for example - and there is a different flow to it) it had the same/very similar effect that made my energy body pulse. I've tried exercises under a deep hypnotic trance - in one of them I became a magnificent galaxy constantly imploding and exploding in a rhythmic manner... the same effect as the orbit. >>This is the part I *don’t* get… you found patterns and you froze them into symbols, and could not revivify? What do you mean by ‘putting them into practice’? Do you mean repeating exactly the same? Why was the pattern separate from putting into practice? Do you mean the language became dead?<< I'll explain the best I can the patterns I've noticed in every effective spiritual system: "ritual" - a ritual can be thought of as a language (I know, I know - you've already said that...) the important aspects of ritual are 1: movement and internal kinaesthetic sense, 2: visualisation 3: sound 4: breath and 5: (which binds it all together and sends the ritual into the correct direction) intent. The practice of microcosmic orbit includes all these aspects of ritual (and so do many of the Taoist practices). What you seem to be doing is orchestrating your life into a ritual frame - which is great! Now that I've explained it, I've forced a very complex, ambiguous experiential understanding into a linguistic model - which as you say has killed off the magic of it. This model is basically using the senses and a strong intent to direct them - but it's never that simple, senses sometimes combine and interact (called synesthesia, as you may already know) - this is unexplainable - and if you do explain it, it loses all of its power. >>Difference between a symbol and a sigil… you consciously understand a symbol, but not a sigil… you make a symbol to represent ‘I know this’ – which is a limitation… you make a sigil to represent ‘I don’t know this’… which is a process of expansion… but I don’t know if you did this ever, or used only Power Rangers etc…. (cool BTW!)<< Excellent! - I've now learnt something new (about your 'reality tunnel') - that's a great distinction to have! I think we're in agreement then that "understanding", being "sure", "convinced" or "certain" about something kills off the energy flow. (This is what we learn to do at school btw) - Meeting a person who is sure about their reality tunnel is a funny experience (and in fact happens every day). So what allows more energy flow? Being confused and curious! confused being the most important one - when I started learning all these different models I got very confused in trying to get them (their content) to correlate - like where the fuck do the chakras fit in with the taoist model? how come there are 4 elements in the western tradition and 5 in taoist (and huna) etc... The confusion was the best thing I got out of this exploration. If you or anyone else wants to try this game out, for laughs and giggles, maybe it will illustrate the difference body-centred and mind centred: concentrate on your belly, relax, take your time and do it properly - Imagine a coloured pearl there - that is your attention. Now as you're relaxed with your attention down deep in your belly, start breathing some life force into it... good... now explain your experience - or pretend to explain your experience to someone else - then stop and notice where the pearl is? (Up in your head by any chance?) I know you know this, NN - so dont get pissed off at me again... >>The content *does* have real value… the same value as the body… when it’s *yours* and not just a diagram in a book… but if the process isn’t right you do get distracted by *chasing* the content… that I never did… for me I never thought it was the process I analysed, only the motive… always the will… why THIS, why just THIS way… << ok - this is where I feel you still haven’t understood my point of view - if you ask a "why" question you will get mainly content and a bit of process... even if you ask "why this way?" you'll get content and stories out of it. "NN - why are you here reading this?" - what's your answer? mainly stories right? or stories about your motive... "NN - how is reading this affecting you?" - your answer will have fewer stories now... "NN - how do you know you're being affected?" - it's a hard question to answer, but your answer would have to include process (and not only in the words you use, but also in the movement of your eyes, and where you place your attention (and thus energy)) One other thing - since we've established that we have certain similarities. I found that when I was getting into metaphysics, spirituality and so on, my self importance would rise significantly... so I would remind myself that I'm a simple animal - even though part of my practice is to free up the simple animal drives that control me, I still haven’t fully done so. I wrote a post about the four circuits/drives of the human animal - and I find it very useful to put these glasses (model) on, to analyse a situation. So what are the circuits operating in our exchange? - Definitely 3rd circuit - intelligence - map making - symbolising - time binding semantic circuit. That's part of it - but the other major part is the 2nd circuit domination / submission circuit. I noticed that early on in the thread we kept 'wrestling' (as you've put it so well) for dominance - "I've already marked this intellectual territory with my excrement - how dare you challenge me by moving in on my (intellectual) patch" - I noticed your view of this same dynamic had more of a sexual flavour - but the basics were the same - who is trying to fuck who? What do you use as your tool for fucking - obviously no phalluses here in the forum, so we use words. We're still primates and we're still playing the domesticated primate game - otherwise why would you be so drawn in to carrying on the conversation even though I'm not giving you what you really want (and Michael is) - why would I be drawn to do the same? (I don’t usually post on forums that much). We're playing very simple *emotional* games - most people do... just in the same way that primates groom, dominate, submit, share food, fuck etc. at first we were wrestling trying to dominate each other - then we both noticed a potent adversary, so we went on to grooming and some sexual favours lol! Can you see this? Do you agree? - I know that by agreeing you'd be grooming me... so answering this question *will* be a move in this emotional game, so decide exactly how you want the game to be played out before answering! Remember when you wrote "that's more like it!" in response to a post where I agreed with you more than before? Could this have been your favourable response to my grooming/submissive/agreeing behaviour? By bringing this model into play I'm attempting to show how using many different models to view reality has benefits - no one model can ever cover the fluid, elusive and beautiful reality that may be out there! >>Cut the crap man! This place I visit all the time.<< LOL!!! absolutely brilliant, let me analyse this using the 'domesticated primate' model above - so I encroached on your territory here - I knew I was doing it, because this seems to be a very important issue for you (even your name is based on this idea) - so I nonchalantly pretended to be teaching you the lesson that you've obviously been learning for a while! Dude - I crapped on your territory, and you told me to "cut the crap"!! It’s beautiful!! Can you see these unconscious games being played out??
>>I’ve tried exercises under a deep hypnotic trance – in one of them I became a magnificent galaxy constantly imploding and exploding in a rhythmic manner… the same effect as the orbit.<< A- ha! At least THIS now explained! I like. Already do it! But does it have a direction? It is front back? Or like in Golden Dawn - side to side and then through the middle? Not important - I will find out later. >>What you seem to be doing is orchestrating your life into a ritual frame – which is great!<< Ta. You're great too, etc. >>Now that I’ve explained it, I’ve forced a very complex, ambiguous experiential understanding into a linguistic model – which as you say has killed off the magic of it<< Disagree. Not what I said! This is what you said - not what I said - did not understand. >>if you do explain it, it loses all of its power.<< Disagree. >>So what allows more energy flow? Being confused and curious!<< Naturally agree very strongly! All the stuff about knocking over cups was intended to convey this. Of course don't ALWAYS need confusion - only if STUCK. >>”NN – why are you here reading this?” – what’s your answer? mainly stories right? or stories about your motive…<< Definitely stories. But not MY motive. Motive ITSELF. = Tao/[" "]. >>I noticed your view of this same dynamic had more of a sexual flavour – but the basics were the same – who is trying to fuck who? What do you use as your tool for fucking – obviously no phalluses here in the forum, so we use words.<< NOW we're gettin' it! I hoped you were following this - it's why I used the sexual flavour. Then very puzzled as you seemed to follow perfectly but I still could not follow you afterwards... did you not remember the two questions with which I began, sexual questions? But go on... >>Can you see this? [animal wisdom in action]. Do you agree? – I know that by agreeing you’d be grooming me…<< Of course agree, knew from start, assumed you also knew from start! Did I not make obvious? From way I wrote? All do this constantly. If you were conscious of it why assume I was unconscious of it? >>the ‘domesticated primate’ model<< OK, HERE's the kicker. Disagree on an epic scale but must sidetrack to deal. You game? Ok, I say you said yes since we are on roll. One little flipover and you will see what I mean I KNOW it this time. Epic scale become minute = problem sorted. You say - when you make the model you lose the energy. I say - not so! Why Freeform why would I lose the energy just by making a model of it? When you made the primate model did you lose the primate energy? No! We have just demonstrated it. You say rulers are good alchemy - but you have to make them orgasm to do it! Freeform, WHY do we use rulers? Observe this spider: she makes the web, round and round between the leaves, with the ruler in her heart. Why? To eat. Why? to fuck. Why? to create. Why? - [" "] I use a ruler - it is the same. Ruler part of my body ruler externalised I could not be part of its! Ruler doesn't want to create, doesn't need to LIVE. Universe VERY VERY ALIVE - ruler much much less alive than blade of grass. Its life comes only from me. I use to make a house. Why? Keep warm. Why? Eat entertain. Why? fuck and orgasm. Why? - [" "] Freeform all I say is - if you look at apes they do not follow a model they simply act w/ Tao right? Model makes no difference to them nor to you, Tao still intact. Right? So model not "bad thing" only replacing experience WITH model bad thing. Right? A model is just a thought. So you do not need to lose energy from having the thought. You lose energy only if you say the experience IS the thought, can still make the model if you know how to destroy it when needed! Freeform why does that painter paint the blue cafe? He is poor and sleeps in a garrett on Monmartre when he could be running his dad's textile business why is this? Same reason - [" "]. Yes? He makes - what? - a MODEL only? Of the cafe? When all the money not on whores and wine goes to paint? Why does it mean so much? Because he chooses to make it mean much and in so choosing it comes to do so. SELF/Tao goes into it. And the next minute - he sells the painting without a care. Why? [" "]! It was good for him simply to express the painting. He can discard it afterwards. Others see the painting/model - they see his experience not only the cafe. They can deduce things. They see the cafe itself every day it makes no difference to them! But the painting could suggest more that they haven't seen by seeing it with another's eyes. Afterwards they could see cafe his way - their way - ANY way. You can see primate behaviour with model - without model - ANY way. Have lost nothing, have gained if it suits you. Model takes away NO energy. Only YOU take away energy from Tao by freezing it into model. Want to unfreeze? Remove the thought! What did you lose? Better? THEN we tackle finger/moon. NN
>>Better?<< Much! (groom groom) I gotta be quick - I'm going out to play with other primates in a bit. >>You can see primate behaviour with model – without model – ANY way. Have lost nothing, have gained if it suits you. Model takes away NO energy. Only YOU take away energy from Tao by freezing it into model. Want to unfreeze? Remove the thought! What did you lose?<< yes! removing the thought may seem quite simple as a concept, but often it's not so easy! I'm getting used to doing this myself - but in no way have I perfected it. That's why I found it strange that you thought that thoughts/models should be taken seriously... I remember in an art gallery this couple standing there, looking at a huge cube of steel, stroking their chins talking about the use of space and all kinds of clever-sounding shizzle - in the meanwhile their kids were running around the cube, rolling on the floor hiding from eachother etc. I know what I would prefer to be doing - unfortunately I have to play the "mature adult" game (dang!). >>So model not “bad thing” only replacing experience WITH model bad thing. Right?<< oh yeah! remember I dont tend to judge 'good' or 'bad' - but i know what you mean, and agree - however you're pretty unique (groom groom) and I havent met many people who dont constantly confuse models for reality.. In fact I bet that you do too sometimes (I certainly do!): ever been happy about winning some money? - give the same money to an ape and they'll treat it as a piece of paper. >>>>FF: if you do explain it, it loses all of its power.<< NN: Disagree.<< ok - if I translate experience into words/thoughts/models/maps than the energy of the original experience is lost - when *you* read/discover the words/model etc. *you* add your own energy to it - and create another experience with some "error" and some "correlation" with my original experience. when I was talking about the act of measuring I was talking about space-time - if you have point A which is some distance from point B you have space and thus time. If you dont have either point A or point B then you only have [" "]! Ok I gotta go... but just wanted to say thanks ;0) I've learnt quite a bit from this exchange - and I value your view of creating maps and models as an artistic, creative, "sexual" process - I agree... some models also transend their own barriers - these are the ones that cause *you* as their observer to create/destroy your own models - they force a process in *you*. Ever seen a Chapman Brothers piece? or read a profoundly simple book? I believe Taoism has this quality.
We agree now except finger/moon must be tomorrow.
This is in lieu of further wrestling. When Robin Hood and Little John meet – first fight then friends good system! Typing fast because hungry – finger/moon! But more soon.
>>yes! removing the thought may seem quite simple as a concept, but often it’s not so easy! I’m getting used to doing this myself – but in no way have I perfected it.<< Did not say had perfected what mean by perfected? >>That’s why I found it strange that you thought that thoughts/models should be taken seriously… I remember in an art gallery this couple standing there, looking at a huge cube of steel, stroking their chins talking about the use of space and all kinds of clever-sounding shizzle – in the meanwhile their kids were running around the cube, rolling on the floor hiding from eachother etc. I know what I would prefer to be doing – unfortunately I have to play the “mature adult” game (dang!).<< Know what mean - but 'dang' not necessary! This why I say - take what you want and pay for it. Want confusion/curiosity? How get? You decide - you get. Prefer to roll around or stand still stroking chin? Then do! Only your option only your decision. >>when *you* read/discover the words/model etc. *you* add your own energy to it – and create another experience with some “error” and some “correlation” with my original experience.<< Nearly agree nearly enough. Have experience a little contrary will demonstrate another time. 'own energy' is problem phrase for me! If stroky-chinny serious make confusion - you want, then do - pay. If roll on ground make more fun for you - you want, then do - pay. Freeform - whole life is work of art. Same. Why I used sex not fighting apes. Apes only fight for sex! Why I say it's language why artists invent new languages. See life - what do? Think? Be? Eat? Any! If no good - do something else. Always must pay. Time. >>some models also transend their own barriers – these are the ones that cause *you* as their observer to create/destroy your own models – they force a process in *you*.<< No force EVER you always decide. Whole life work of art - can destroy useless models in instant you decide. Effective art or not you decide. See Duchamp see Cage! This screen art could change you completely. Change life or not you decide. Happen now happen later you decide. No decision. This very significant this not significant you decide. Tao everywhere. Significant = meaningful = [" "]/Tao. >>- give the same money to an ape and they’ll treat it as a piece of paper.<< He do what he want he decide! Man in pub hits you he decide! Grandmaster ninja hit you he decide! food/drink now I decide! lovelovelovelovelove from soul NN Gregory very beautiful! Tomorrow I finger your moon.
>>Know what mean – but ‘dang’ not necessary!<< I've got a bit of a Napoleon Dynamite addiction - that's the reason for the Dang!... If you still havent seen this film - go and rent it now!!! One thing I'd like to know more about is your notion of decision. Is this similar to the notion of 'free will'? If so, does everyone have free will, or ability to make concious, willfull decisions?
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