“OK, now” …look up here, Steven

I may have to let some of the words of you and Bagua
digest a bit . . .

I see what the both of you are saying, but at the same
time, I feel like there is more to the story.

For instance,

1. If it’s all about “remembering who you are, and
recognizing your true self”, then if that was/is the
ideal state, then why was it lost? I mean, if it
was the optimal situation, why did we change from that
state? Maybe we needed more?

2. Moreover, if being in the state of now and operating
from the core true self is the key, then why did we
need to come down here to begin with–in the physical
plane? From that perspective, coming here would
be unnecessary as we already *had* what we needed.
One could argue that we came here in physicality to
create a new environment for deeper understanding
of the true self, but that seems incomplete to me.
While your point of view has merit to me, it seems
like it is only one part of the whole picture.

To me, it feels like we came here to understand the
true self better, but *also* to enjoy the opportunity
for creative exploration and interaction on a level
not possible just in the spiritual realm.

On that end, I’m like the kid at the amusement park
who is unhappy that he has to go home at the end of the
day. I feel like I’d like to continue this exploration
indefinitely. On that end, I’d like to express my
intention to the universe that I’m happy with
my “current job”, and that I’d like it to continue . . .
and on that end, I’m not interested in being “fired”
and replaced with a new employee–or even altered
(say by having memories, personality, logical thinking,
etc. wiped and replaced with a new structure). I
feel that it’s already working as is, and changing things
is not desirable.

In other words, understanding the true self and
feeling the presence of “oneness” is only *part* of
underlying goal. Development *beyond* that seems
like another peg in the wheel–otherwise, we would
have already been content before physicality. After
all, we originally stemmed from the universal oneness
to begin with.

I don’t know if you know what I mean . . .

I agree with what both of you and Bagua have said, but
I feel like it is stopping short of capitalizing on
the gift of being here. In other words, developing
awareness of no separation, developing an awareness
of full and complete being, only returns us to where
we were–ultimately better than the separation we
think we feel now, but that only represents getting
back to where to where we were–not beyond. And why
would we come here if not for the possibility to go beyond?
It’s like being in a well, entering the physical realm,
slipping down 10 feet, and by recognizing pure awareness
of true self and unity we return to our original position–but
we have not moved up the well. That’s my issue. While
the words you speak do wonders to move you up the well to the
original position, they don’t move you beyond it.

I guess I’m rambling now, but the point is that while
I feel the truth in what has been said, I feel it is
missing something. Moreover, when I say that, I feel
like I’m saying it from some deep inner feeling of
intuition and not just a mental construct. In other
words, it feels right–even though I can’t really explain it.

I know I must be frustrating to you (and others, i.e. Bagua),
but I guess it’s in my nature to not keep silent about
intense inner feelings that there is more to story than
just accepting a belief that others concur on. I feel
an overwhelming need to dig deeper, and ask annoying questions
that others feel are obvious–especially when I’m not so
certain that they are obvious and that maybe–just maybe–
certain beliefs and assumptions are actually assuming too
much–stopping short and not getting the whole picture.

It’s why I annoyed the hell out of Sunday school teachers
who didn’t understand why I couldn’t just accept what
they considered to be obvious facts, such as “Jesus is God
in human form”. I would ask questions like, “If Jesus
*is* actually God, then why would he need to pray to God–i.e.
himself–in the Garden of Gethsemane and ask God if he
actually needed to go through with the crucifixion–seemed
to me that if he actually *were* God, he would already *know*
the answer . . . because he’s God!!” Thus there seemed
to be a serious flaw in the belief. It pointed to me
to the idea that while Jesus was an enlightened being,
and while he may have had “God consciousness”, that
he wasn’t *actually* God himself–i.e. either he was
not God, or he was as much a piece of God as we all
are pieces of God. Thus praying to *him* was not
the same as praying to God. In other words, through
assumptions that were being made by the believers,
they were stopping short of what the global underlying
truth of all that is is.

I don’t know if you can understand what I’m trying to say.
All I know is that there is “more to the story” than
what I feel that you are portraying. I don’t know how
to put it into language, as it is not something I feel
that can be put into words. All I know is, is that it is
something I *feel*–and I feel it deep within–radiating
inside from the core. I feel that there is more than
simply understanding and being the true self and merging
in some great unification of collectiveness and elimination
of separation. Somehow, I feel there is more. I don’t
know *what* that “more” is. It’s part of the big mystery.
But I feel that returning to oneness (or more accurately,
awakening to the fact that we are already one), is stopping
short of “this more”. Then death unfortunately means
losing the opportunity to get insight into “this more”.

I should probably stop writing now, because I don’t know
that I can explain what I feel about this in words, and
you (and others) may feel I’m just speaking in riddles that
is an attempt to deny (or lack of acceptance) of what you’ve
described.

It’s very frustrating, because I know what I feel, but
I can’t express it using thought and language.

Anyhow, something to chew on 🙂

Have fun,
Steven

>>>I really do appreciate you insistent probing and
>>>your willingness to find truth. And I am not at all
>>>frustrated with this inquiry and I absolutely understand
>>>what you are saying. It is clear. And the answer to your
>>>question is Yes, there is more. Yes, it is happening for
>>>a purpose. But that purpose cannot be realized unless the
>>>process of embodiment is complete and that happens when
>>>identification with the body/mind is over.

I believe that.

>>>There is more to be said here but I do not want to write more now.

No problem. I think there is already plenty to chew on for a while. 😉
If you choose to write more at some point later on, I’d be happy
for the discussion, but things can also sit for awhile.

>>>Please rest your head now and let all worry go about
>>>whether or not you will survive your own death.

I don’t know if it’s worry and fear so much as just having
an intense curiosity about it.

That and not wanting to let the universe down 🙂
i.e. even if I can’t stick around after death, I’d at least
like the universe to think I was a useful incarnation, LOL.

S

Yes . . .

Then by having a “separate identity” (through ego) and having
individual will allows you to have a totally unique and
new experience from its prior existence as part of the collective.

This new and unique experience is then transmitted back to the
collective through the energetic cord of attachment to the whole
(which prevents complete and total separation).

This information, which the collective receives, is wholly new
information and therefore benefits the whole. The whole itself
then becomes enriched and grows as part of the experience.

In this sense, you become an investigative journalist for
the whole and report back information for the whole
(Michael: You realize that you never actually quit your
previous job!!)

The more you align with the lifeforce, the better you are
at “your job”–as in this sense, the lifeforce represents
the collective will and desire of the whole for information.
By aligning with the lifeforce, you are more successfully
answering the questions that the collective is seeking.

In this sense, working to eliminate the ego-mind to
connect with the “true self”, is just a fear-based response
to the difficulties faced in being a separate agent on behalf
of the whole. You miss home, and want to be reminded of
where you came from. There’s nothing wrong with wanting
to occasionally think of home, so long as it does not become
all-consuming so that it becomes an end to itself–a form
of escapism to avoid dealing with being a separate agent
charged with a task.

Of course, as indicated before, you are never truly completely
separate–and you can always tap into the part that is still
connected anytime you wish. However, the separated aspect–the
part of you that is driven by ego–acts a great service to the whole.

The key here is moderation:

If you let the ego get out of control, then you feel “too separated”.
Feelings of joy, happiness, love, connectedness decrease, while
feelings of unhappiness, loneliness, fear increase. These
negative feelings which permeate the whole structure cause conflicts
which cause the individual to act in ways that are not in alignment
with the lifeforce. This creates a pseudo-conflict between both
the individual and the collective, and decreases the successes of both.

On the other hand, if you seek to completely eliminate the ego in
all-consuming goal of not feeling separated, then while you can
more completely tap into the feeling of oneness, you are unfortunately
denying and ignoring your reason for being here. The collective
doesn’t learn as much when you are not “separated” and “in the field”.

Thus I think the best scenario is to be cognizant of the constant
connection to the collective, but to simultaneously embrace (not eliminate!)
the ego as a useful tool in our “investigative journalist” task.
Then, as you’ve stated Michael, CHOOSE to align our individual will
with the lifeforce to maximize the success of “our job”, and to maximize
the benefit to the collective.

In this way, all sides win.

And in this way, those that are truly successful, I can’t imagine that
the collective would disallow some form of spiritual immortality, as
in that case, you’ve proved “too useful” to not have a contract-renewal.

S

I had this forwarded to me by John Mann, owner of Big Indian. My comments below.

THUS I HAVE HEARD, THE WORLD HONORED ONE, THE BUDDHA
WAS SURROUNDED BY HIS MOST ADVANCED DISCIPLES,
HE SAID TO THEM, ” IF ONE TRULY LISTENS THEY WILL AWAKEN.”
THE DISCIPLES IMMEDIATELY JUMPED TO THEIR FEET AND ASKED,
“PLEASE, LORD EXPLAIN TO US THIS TRUE LISTENING.”
THE LORD REPLIED,
“WHEN I LISTEN TO ANOTHER,
I ENTER INTO AND BECOME THE OTHER.
WHEN I AM THE OTHER, THERE IS NO ME.
WHEN THERE IS NO ME, THERE IS NO OTHER.”

I totally agree with this – separation is an illusion. But note that the individual must first Choose to listen and become the other – so free will exists within the illusion of separation. This is what liberates the whole – that loving choice to accept our oneness.

It implies that we can also chose to live in duality and conflict and separation, and the life force will allow that reality to exist for as long as we choose it, because it also honors our individual free will.
michael