April 16, 2005 at 8:16 am #4461
That is about the best of the whole immortal Tao practice.
For more on phowa:
Peace out!!April 16, 2005 at 1:02 pm #4462
I found this link last spring, and have practiced it on and off. I don’t know how complete the practice is.
It’s a site with frames. Click on “teachings” in the left-hand frame, then scroll down halfway to “Tulku Karzang’s Short Daily Phowa Practice, October, 2002.”April 16, 2005 at 10:06 pm #4464
Phowa, from my understanding has nothing to do with the immortal Tao practice. It was adopted from Tibetan Buddhism.
Before making blanket statements about parts of a particular system being “the best”, what foundation do you have in it so that we should believe your statement? Have you practiced Phowa? What can you tell us about your experience with it?
It is easy to talk the talk but can you walk the walk? Any one can have a child but not everyone can take care of it, or speak from the wisdom of experience.April 16, 2005 at 10:19 pm #4466
Going for the Throat ayyy…April 16, 2005 at 11:33 pm #4468
I have practiced phowa in the Kadgyu Tibetan tradition, under the lama Ole Nydahl.
In that tradition, from which it originally derives, as far as I know, it is not an out of body practice (in other words, that is not its aim), rather, it is (mainly) a method for preparing for death wherein the aim is to enter into an after death condition based in the experience of non-dual experience as that is understood within the Tibetan tantrik tradition. it is like a fail-safe measure that you practice until it becomes a reflex that kicks in in the dying process. An outward manifestation can occur of a red mark on the scalp when practicing (which did happen in my case), as a useful confirmation of the reality of your efforts–I guess it at least confirms that mind can affect the body through concentrated visualization efforts.
It is also used in some variations as an advanced yogic meditation method for ‘leaping into the non-dual state’ while alive.
In my opinion, from studying Tibetan buddhism from Tibetan practioners, a clear philosophical understanding of the non-dual view is necessary to really practice this method in its intended form, and/OR–you practice it with a real lama, thereby getting the transmission/connection with a powerful practioner (the first is learning from the ground up, and the latter is the ready made version that can be transmitted to you as a package if you’re willing to accept any conditions that may be attached).
For a good idea of the non-dual tradition within Tibetan buddhism (which is different from and in my opinion more comprehensive than zen etc), see the book by Chögyam Trungpa, ‘Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism’.
SimonApril 17, 2005 at 2:04 am #4470
My main point should really be that, from a Daoist point of view, why would some one want to leave the body at the point of death? Where would we want to go? The inner heavens are inside us.April 17, 2005 at 3:16 am #4472
Do not shoot an arrow that might come back to you.
Many words do not fill a basket.
The wisest animal is the giraffe. It never speaksApril 17, 2005 at 3:26 am #4474
Very interesting. My other replies were directed to the general and non- descriptive statements posted above.
Is Phowa considered a “Dzogchen” practice? Is it correct to say that most of the Tibetan Yogic practices are not exactly Buddhist in origin? I am not clear on what exactly Dzogchen is, and how it was incorporated into Tibetan Buddhist practice, and whther or not it is related to Bonpo?April 17, 2005 at 3:31 am #4476
I guess this is where the spiritual cultivation of pathways, and the method of accessing different states of consciousness may differ between Tibetan Buddhism and Daoist alchemy.
I would be interested to know that when exiting the crown, is one exiting from the head or from another center in the body?April 17, 2005 at 3:59 am #4478
Hey, do I have a problem with you? Is this how you guys treat new comers here?? Just dont read my post if you dont like me! Im not looking for quarrels here but for interaction and integration with people who are civilized and with wisdom.
Right! Shooting the pearl out of the crown is PHOWA!! IME, it is the best part of the Immortal Tao practice of Master Manta China. According to Manta Chia, this practice was transmitted directly to him by One Cloud. Go ask Mantak Chia yourself if you need proof.
And how do you know that this practice was adopted from Tibetan Buddhism and not Tibetan Buddhism adopted from the Taoist??
Peace out!!April 17, 2005 at 4:00 am #4480
Be warned! Phowa if done incorrectly can shorten ones life. Before you do it, if there is time, like in a practice session, it works well to do tonglen first or fusion practice as taught by Mantak Chia.
Heres the link for tonglen:
There are things you may read in books or on the Internet, about ejection or transference of consciousness. It’s best to leave those alone until you get direct instruction from a Tibetan Master or from Mantak Chias shooting pearl version.
Astral projection and ejection of consciousness are often confused because descriptions of them sound similar. In some ways though, they are opposite. Astral projection occurs when one aspect of being in the world is not centered or fully in sync with the rest. For phowa to occur, everything has to be in sync, to be focused together.
More links for reading:
Peace out!!April 17, 2005 at 4:53 am #4482
Welcome to the site. I mistook you for a different person who has taken to making antagonistic statements under different names without backing them up with evidence.
But on the subject of the Phowa practice, I was told by senior instructors that this was incorporated into the Healing Tao system later, and was not originally part of the transmission of One Cloud. Did Mantak Chia say that this was transmitted to him directly by One Cloud? I would be very interested to know.
I have not researched this subject, but would suppose that since it mainly is found and referenced to by Tibetan Buddhists today, and not referred to in the Daoist alchemical texts, that it belongs to the Tibetan tradition.
I am interested in the transformation of consciousness as a preparation for death, and have experienced transformation of inner states during meditation inside the body. Does the Phowa practice allow you to shift energetic states of consciousness by ejecting the pearl?April 17, 2005 at 5:16 am #4484
I read the article under your link about the Phowa practice, as well as the link about the Tonglen Practice. It sounds like the intention is to enter a different state of consciousness when leaving the body (the collective light of Buddha consciousness). It sounds like it may be functionally different than Chia’s practice (I have not trained it with him), where the intention is to absorb planetary and stellar consciousness, and then return to the body with it rather than staying merged with the form of divine consicousness being connected with.
The Tonglen practice sounds very beneficial.April 17, 2005 at 3:48 pm #4486
The different lineages have their own versions, and I’ve only personally learned from teachers the kadgyu version, though I would say the way I tend to approach the practice is in more of a dzogchen spirit–where the philosophical view is paramount, taking precedence over (though not factoring out by any means) the yogic physiology aspect.
Dzogchen comes from two main sources; Padmasambahva, sometimes called ‘the tantrik buddha’ who came to Tibet in the 8th century from a place then called Uddiyana, sometimes equated to Afghanistan though this is disputed; and Garab Dorje, a mysterious tantrik master also from Uddiyana (often called then ‘the land of the magicians’). The kind of meditation it represents, originally called ati yoga, is much older than its introduction to Tibet.
Dzogchen has been influenced by the local bonpo shamanism, and vice versa, but in any case in dzogchen there is a big emphasis on dream practice, and more of an acceptance of things like receiving transmission in the dream state. It’s a little wilder and more eccentric then the other lineages. At the same time dzogchen/nyingma is the most sophisticated philosophically.
All the lineages (of which the nyingma, out of which dzogchen has emerged, is the oldest) have affected each other however, and many lamas of one lineage learn from lamas from other lineages.
As far as yogic practices are concerned, I view them as always having been neutral, like technology. Does anybody own technology, or the concept of physical exercise? Those forms of buddhism that employ yogic practices differ from the forms of other traditions that also do so only in their philosophical outlook, which outlook is truly understood only to varying degrees by its own practioners–my view is that buddhism and daoism, etc., are not often enough seen for what they are, namely art forms or sciences that one can be more or less accomplished in, and wherein there is also room for innovation, rather than being chiseled-in-stone belief systems whereby one ‘is’ a buddhist or daoist because one has decided to be one.
SimonApril 17, 2005 at 4:54 pm #4488
thanks for your reply,
It is interesting to note that the oldest lineages in the tantrik dzogchen tradition come from the western regions.
I agree completely that there has been varied influences and constant innovation in these practices throughout their history, making the idea of “pure lineage forms” irrelevant, because evolution and refinement is the whole point of practicing them anyway!
I also agree that at the root, as Michael has often pointed out, that when one looks beyond the philosophical or religious trappings of Daoism, as it has evolved into today, that at its root it is a spiritual science based on the consciousness and interdimensional being of nature. This is probably true also for tibetan tantrik dzogchen buddhism (maybe you can elaborate on this) when one gets down to the actual practices themselves, minus the deities, or with the deities actually representing natural forces.
It is important though, to be specific and note that the terms “Buddhist”, or “Daoist” are umbrella terms but they do refer to a body of practices that are different in their approach.
Daoism from its root (the Nei Yeh, or Inward Training text) refers to the refinement of Jing, Qi and Shen, as inseparable variations of a single frequency of vibration. The Neijing Suwen of HuangDi also refers to the use of Daoyin to cultivate the vital jing essence by the ancients to achieve longevity. These and the later texts that surfaced on alchemy which may have been practiced earlier as secret schools do differ quite a bit from the religious/philosophical Daoist approach, that did incidentally borrow from Buddhism (things like the concept of hell, and the proliferation of deities, and the idea of reincarnation).
It seems that in contrast, (I may be corrected on this) most Buddhist philosophical/analytical schools, as well as the texts of the teachings of Gautama, seem mainly to refer to mind training, compassion, observation of sense manifestations, and focusing on the (as yet undefined) state of emptiness. The important point here is that they do not appear to be geared towards integrating the jing essence into the state of emptiness (which i would presume is a vibration on the frequency of spirit), or giving substance to the spirit. this also seems to end up in denying the physical aspect as a part of the endless cycle of suffering in the physical realm.
Ch’an Buddhism in china has borrowed heavily from Daoism, I would assume in its inclusion of the concept of Jing, Qi and Shen, which does not appear in the teachings of Gautama.
It would seem here that Tibetan yogic practices differ from the analytical intellectual teachings of Gautama in that they do recognize energetic pathways, and recognize the transformation of energy (I don’t know to what degree can you elaborate?).
I am interested in Bonpo after visiting the Potala palace, and checking out the meditation cave of the king that brought buddhism to Tibet. It was a Very intense experience of focused Jing, I would assume because this king would have been well versed in the indigenous spiritual practices of Tibet before adopting Buddhism. Also, that The Bonpo system has a cosmology of the five elements, but with different color and element associations than Daoist, but it is there never the less.
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