March 14, 2005 at 3:26 pm #3419
It’s too bad Plato lacks the courage to apologize to Jen, as he will need that much courage and more to face some tough truths about himself and his inner female.
Every time Plato or Max – or anyone – insults women, they further traumatize their own yin side. In this case, it drives their male side deeper into hiding in an Empty “mind-only” reality. Deep down, the school teaching this is afraid of the female power to generate form. When Gautama was first collecting disciples, historians have noted that he adamantly refused to accept female aspirants. Contrast this with the early Tao teachings honoring the Yin and putting the Queen Mother of the West in charge of all the immortals.
My intention is not tp debate Plato, that is too easy. It would not be a fair contest; in high school I won the California State Debate Championship in a playoff involving 100,000. debate teams. It is simple for me to track multiple levels of an argument and see their ultimate implications before my opponent does.
The reason Plato refused to define any aspect of his question about “semblance Dharma” was because Bill Bodri had not defined it for him.
Plato had nothing to repeat to me, and he lacks depth in the field of Buddhist thought — he cannot think for hiimself. He’s basically hiding behind Bodri. But Bodri himself doesn’t define it, it is one of his many sweepingly false generalizations that Plato was mimicking. I will post more on the house of cards that Bodri has built later.
Max has displayed a more independent intelligence. It is regretful that his friendship with Plato prevents him from acting honoorably and contributing further to the discussion. Please note I have not banned either from the site or from posting. I’ve only made it clear the discussion does not proceed with them includeduntil they can accept responsiblity for their own small immature actions.
No, rather than debate Plato and win an Empty victory in the battle of words, my intent is to help him transform the issues that underlie his legitimate questions.
I was just about to complement Plato for sharing his own difficuty with foxes. It takes great courage to use your own sexual issues to make a point publicly, especially with secretive Pluto-Scorpio type influences in your chart.
Foses are real, they visited me often when I was younger, but stopped coming after I unintentionally activated my kundalini and woke up. They cannot violate you if you have taken possession of your core chanel at the frequency level of the jing.
I hadn’t seen any in many years, and was surprised when one cam by a few weeks ago. I now realize this was at the time Plato began complaining about them, and she probably followed his trail to me. The fox, in the form of a beautiful lady, lay down nearby me, but at a respectful distance, perhaps hoping I would invite it for love. I let her know that wouldn’t happen, and asked what she really wanted. She smiled and left.
Plato’s solution of chanting sutras is in reality a form of self-hypnosis. But it works by temporarily freezing the energy body at a certain level so it becomes difficult for the shen to act out their individual habitual (in this case sex-addicted) iimpulses. So I think its great he has found a technique that will at least temporarily center him. The Tibetans make it clear that sutra is the slowest path; but Plato needs to slow his mind down, so sutra made give him that peace of mind from his inner monkey.
That’s why I think he should go deeper into the Buddhist community and their trip. He needs their basic level of self-discipline before he can progress further. But I predict after a few years in Nan’s straight jacket of Emptiness he will rebel once again.
The pluto in Plato will ultimately seek a more direct relationship with his jing. Constantly accusing it of being Empty will not cause it to lose its substance, but his mental body will feel more safe. Then it will be OK to touch your female form, hidden even within the formless. And you will finally forgive your mother for birthing you and for the couintless other crimes of being female.
I wish you good luck on your Way.
michaelMarch 14, 2005 at 8:02 pm #3420
The debate is over, as I see it is useless to communicate something that shouldn’t be communicated on just intellectual level.
The whole argument between Healing Tao systems and Buddhist Esoteric path comes down to only one thing, and if the person reading this has a minuscule amount of wisdom, they will know what to do.
The whole thing comes down to this…..
Healing Tao System originated from “White Cloud” (and later “One Cloud”) teaching young Mantak Chia the basic formulas up to Fusion. Later, Chia adds his own interpretations of higher formulas under the name of “Kan & Li” and higher. As you said yourself so many times, your methods to teach those formulas came from your own vision of what they are. From my own experiences, yours are much more capable of producing results, if one chooses to dedicate his time with them.
But…. a curious seeker may ask: “Hold one second….. I want to know if there are any masters or students that accomplished the highest goal so colorfully glamorized in the HT Course guide”.
Well, my curious seeker, to tell you the truth we don’t know of anybody who reached that stage yet in HT tradition.
“Then, what about One Cloud? What happened to him?”, the curious seeker might ask.
One Cloud is dead. He used to be a breatherian, but then started eating again and teaching local students.
“What about Mantak Chia?”
The last time I’ve heard from people following him he was in a dispute with another master for copying that master’s book word for word. There is also some investment money his students invested in the Tao Garden being “missing”. But you can take all that as just a rumor. Otherwise, he is all busy teaching his Darkroom retreats.
“Well, what about Michael Winn?”
I don’t know. He talks about “the neutral space” a lot and seems to be training really hard to overcome his karmic misfortunes originating from his adventures in Egypt. He seems to be a nice man, though.
“So, you mean to tell me, all the hopes are now on Michael Winn to carry the tradition that is still in the experimental stage?”, the young seeker asks.
Yes, Michael Winn is our chance to see if he is right. And I truly hope he is.
You know what I’m getting to by now?
Buddhist Esoteric path produced countless masters that reached different stages of Dhyana and Enlightenment. Healing Dao System is very young and only time will show how it will develop. For now it is an EXPERIMENT.
As always, I wish you all the best.
Especially Michael Winn… to be successful in what he seeks.
Metta.March 14, 2005 at 10:50 pm #3422
If all that was taught by HT was the secret smile
That would have been enough.
Its genuinely good for the body and soul
If it just taught the microcosmic orbit
That would have been enough.
Whole schools stop at the top, we go all the way around. Its
safer, and puts you in touch w/ lifes basic energy.
If it just taught awakening the inner organs w/in the 5 element theory
That would be enough
A body based feng shui system to learn about oneself.
If it just went to Fusion of the 5 elements
That would be enough
Combining everything in a dynamic meditation
I don’t really know anything beyond Fusion, but it seems to me that healing tao stuff starts where most systems end.
Empty minded meditation is great. I don’t think theres any place where they tell you Not to do it. Its natural, its rejuvenating. It just doesn’t have to be your whole bag.
Bhuddism is great. I just object to when it becomes to much lord Bhudda, or God Bhudda and takes on all the religous dogma of other established religions. IMHO I don’t think that was his intent. IF I want dogma I can get it in spades from my own cultural background.
To me Chia and Winn are innovators. They haven’t pulled this stuff out of hat. Its there, within the murky poetry of early works and the secrecy of older generations, it is there.
One test is judging Instructor by his students, and in that regard, I have liked what I see. I I’ll probably meander along the HT path for another decade or two.
MichaelMarch 14, 2005 at 11:10 pm #3424
It is interesting to note that many esoteric schools of spirituality up until very recently were taught almost only as an oral tradition, and were passed down from teacher to student in a secret fashion. That we as westerners are able to learn the core formulas of a Daoist seclusion school of inner alchemy in whatever form they are passed down would have been unheard of 50 years ago, and for the past 2000 years before that.
Let me say that most of this information is NOT available in books.
The language used in most alchemical texts is couched in such poetic language that it would be hard for an unitiated person to understand, or practice from. One can get a good idea of what the practices involved from the ancient texts, but not how to do them.
Chen yu Ming, and Master Yu have shared part of their practice with us on our journeys to China (the first time this has been taught to westerners), and the beginning formulas they taught were very similar although with significant differences, to the core formulas of One Cloud.March 14, 2005 at 11:55 pm #3426
Before I get to my point, I can’t resist pointing out that, after saying it can’t be discussed on an intellectual level, Max then procedes to describe what “the whole thing comes down to” in a very intellectual way.
Regardless of Max’s inconsistency, I think he raises a reasonable question, which really comes back to the the issue of lineage, purity of teaching and why we should trust Michael’s/Chia’s methods.
It would be nice to have Michael explain why he thinks the White Cloud teachings are genuine — both in terms of historical lineage and in terms of intrinsic value. And for the slow learners in the class (i.e., me) it would be nice if the explanation was simple, without reference to “soul completion”, “po and shen” or “fox spirits”.
For my own part, I’ve done a fair amount of reading about daoism (though I’m sure less than Michael and probably less than Max). The stuff Chia teaches is remarkably similar to most of the other stuff that is being revealed in dribs and drabs from other daoist lineages in china. Practices vary — as one might expect from various schools that were isolated and secretive — but most of the concepts and practices are recognizable as sharing a common language, philosophy and cosmology. That gives me a certain level of confidence in the “7 formulas” as being representative of ancient, certifiable, chinese daoism.
I also find Chia’s system, at least on it’s face, to be among the most complete and sophisticated daoist systems that I’ve come across (though there are certainly other complete and sophisticated ones out there).
And in case Max is reading this, I think Buddhism is a complete and sophisticated stystem as well.
But so is Islam.
And the fact that Islam exists as a complete and sophisticated system doesn’t make Buddhism any less relevant.
So too Buddhism doesn’t make Islam — or Daoism — any less relevant to spiritual fulfillment.
Go with whatever floats your boat, it’s a big planet.March 15, 2005 at 12:35 pm #3428
I think that you’ve posted a valid point, a very substantial and valid point. (And, with an exception or two, very cleanly put.)
I’m very much for rigorous, clean, sincere on-going critique of the HT system. I think its in the best interest of the improved health of the system, and of students. The system needs it.
If the result of this recent mess was that you and Plato left, and progressive discriminating conversation dropped off – leaving the HT to languish as it is – it would be a loss.
And yet the.. ugliness brought to the struggle, of late, has been totally unacceptable, imo.
Whether or not you and Plato stay around, I hope that we all keep our swords sharp and clean.
KeithMarch 15, 2005 at 12:56 pm #3430
..symbolizes intelligence, discrimination, wisdom.March 15, 2005 at 4:19 pm #3432
as michael pointed out this weekend, voice to ears goes to kidneys, thus deeper into the jing. reading with eyes goes to head.
🙂March 15, 2005 at 8:02 pm #3434
…March 16, 2005 at 9:21 am #3436
Ii appreciate your open enquiry into the validity of the kan & li formulas.
I have done the same myself, in more ways than you can imagine.
And I invite you to drop in and question my methods in the future as you feel inspired or find the time. (Plato is also welcome, especially when he polishes the sharp edges of his self-projections).
I want my interpretation of inner alchemy to be tested throughly, that is the only way to make it into a viable spiritual science that has finally come out of the closet, after 70,000. years (if you accept some oral history versions of the origin of Taoist alchemy). Its important to know that my methodology adapted for modern adepts may be experimental, but the age old principles of alchemy are not. And alchemy should not be confused with other religious paths for reasons I will elucidate later.
As to the central question: Did Mantak Chia invent the kan and li formulas?
I put that question directly to Mantak a few years back.
He looked at me and laughed softly. “I’m not smart enough to invent them”, he said sincerely. He went on to recount that the thing that upset him the most when he divorced Maneewan was that as an act of spite she took the paper that White Cloud had one day written down all seven of the formulas on. And note he had described all these formulas long before he was famous. When I first met him in 1980 he told me was planning to write a single bookk that would explain all seven formulas.
The issue of what level Mantak was able to master those formulas is a different question, which I have gone into detail on my retreats. Not that I am trying to be his judge – but when you get famous its necessary to let some air out of an over inflated tire sometimes in order to evaluate things more neutrally.
Chia is human and has a generous share of his own problems, but I have never heard him lie about this issue and claim false mastery. Some of his innovations I’ve opposed vehemently – but its obvious they are his. Eric Yudelove once had a visitation from a Tao immortal at night, who forced Eric to get up and write down what he had to say. I read it the next morning, it was at a retreat. It asked: why does Mantak Chia change what has proven to work so well?
Trust me that I am the greatest skeptic around. That is why I spent so many years testing different paths. But there is no doubt in my mind that this set of formulas is genuine hermit to hermit oral tranmission – which is the main Taoist tradition carrying the alchemy lineage, not the Taoist temples.
Alchemy is older than any religion – just read Mircea Eliade’s The Forge and the Crucible and you will see that its mythology and attempts to penetrate its mystery predates all organized religion. Even in the early metalurgical forms of external alchemy it was seen as a sexual process of penetrating the earth.
It is the world’s first spiritual science – and is found in every major culture on the planet. Its principles are not unique to Taoism – just read the Emerald Tablet found in Egypt, and you know they are talking about exactly the same internal process.
There are good reasons it was kept underground in the past, mostly to ensure its purity. That’s why its impossible to “measure” success of past schools. Bill Bodri makes a vain attempt to claim that Zen schools produced more Enlightened masters….Tao immortals could care less if no one knows about them, and prefer remaining uncounted.
The Chan schools give public Enlightenment status the way most schools give diplomas. If you hang in there long enough, you get one. Kumar Frantzis teacher, Liu Hung Chieh, spent ten years getting declared enlightened and then went to work on the Taoist challenge of achieving immortality using movement arts, meditation, and the I Ching. Immortality should not be confused with Enlightenment by taoist standards – the former transmutes the jing in a way that “mind enlightenment” does not even attempt.
The kan and li process of inversion is described in many, many texts.
Isabelle Robinet describes the process from the Sung Dynasty in her Taoism: Growht of a Relgion that is very similar to these formulas. The Book of Balance and Harmony has three levels of kan & li cauldrons, lesser, greater, and greatest. Eva Wong’s Dragon and Tiger classic is another.
Or get Livia Kohn’s anthology of 30 of the world’s leading Daoist scholars,
The Daoism Handbook. Read the several chapters on internal alchemy there, with references to all of the more famous texts. Or check out the entire volume dedicated to inner alchemy in Civilization and Science in China by Joseph Needham.
No, I haven’t invented anything new, inner alchemy itself is not the experiment. It is still around because people have found ways to make it work. The lineages have died out in the West mostly, but haven’t totally in China. The only way to know the immortals is for them to reveal themselves to you on the inner planes.
I have been fortunate to have that contact – that is what pointed me to the essential understanding of the role of yuan chi as a trinity with yin and yang chi. But its clear that I must still do the work of figuring out how to transmit this art in the 21st century. Heaven doesn’t have that secret – its an Earth-determined, in the moment issue that requires the meldiing of culturally warmped minds to universal principles.
I plan to increase those numbers of people who make alchemy work, just as It has worked for me on very profound levels. The experiiment for me personally is already conclusive. Measuring imimortality is impossible by outsdiers. The question is only how far this can penetrate into the collective consciousness. Then more people will know for themselves.
love, chi, blessings
MichaelMarch 16, 2005 at 3:40 pm #3438
BRAVO!March 17, 2005 at 3:21 am #3440
Chia was “Planning to write a single book that would explain all seven formulas” that would have been awesome! Perhaps Winn’s book will be what we are looking for…when it finally gets released?
Another book that desribes the formulas is Spiritual Qigong by David Twicken. I am wondering what Michael thinks of this one, should one spend their time with it? Of course, the oral transimission would be best, but a good book is important to have as well, of course….but what is the MOST good one? Thats what we ALL want to know/are waiting for.March 17, 2005 at 5:56 am #3442
I think all the people who really know the formulas had looked their intire life and finally found it and now they are just…well…I am much younger than these people who really know the formulas, I am only 20 years old. I still have my youth, so perhaps my kan and li vibe is still very strong. Maybe its just my ego vibration!? But I have a descent understanding of the formuals, and all I am trying to say is: all you people who REALLY know the formulas, get off your ass and make them open. There should be a website detailing how to use the formulas, a basic version and an extended version. Anyone who wants to learn to meditate, they should know about the way to do it, easily.
Chia, Winn…other senior instructors??? Whoever you are! If you understand the formulas and are listening, WAKE UP. This is the age of technology, animation!
If only people were not so hungry for $ then the cosmic truth could awaken right now, or tomorrow! Balance the internal and external. If it works, do it. If it dont, find what does and replace it.
Thank You.March 17, 2005 at 10:54 am #3444
It was both informative and heartwarming.
Indeed, your post above, and your earlier post about lineage seeking its own fullfillment and expansion, stand as two nice bookends to the whole discussion about the legitimacy of healing tao teachings.
Thanks.March 17, 2005 at 4:16 pm #3446
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