May 31, 2010 at 12:19 am #34386
Michael Winn’s relatively recent announcement that stopping ejaculation with finger pressure is not a good idea, leaves me wondering if maybe the same should be said about all other Taoist methods of accomplishing that. I know that Catholic priests and monks are more likely than the general population to have serious prostate problems, but does anyone know how we Taoists are doing in comparison, statistically speaking?
I have to ask because in my experience that finger pressure technique is the only way to have an orgasm without ejaculation. The “big draw”, or just using the mind to draw energy up the spine does prevent ejaculation but only because it also prevents orgasm. I think I started practicing chi gung and these Taoist methods when I was about 26, and now I’m 40, so I may be approaching an age bracket where I need to be even more careful about prostate health. I know that nutritionally the best things we can do to avoid prostate cancer is 200 mcg of selenium and 1,000 IU of vitamin D daily, eating cooked tomatoes, and avoiding dairy products, etc.May 31, 2010 at 6:08 am #34387
“finger pressure technique is the only way to have an orgasm without ejaculation.”
Maybe read or re-read FAQs – link below.
IMO, following Michaels information, training via ‘cool draw’ essential (shown on sexual vitality dvd). Better if first do testicle massage, massage lower back and lower abdomen. Connecting eyes and T’s – feel cool energy and essence expand around hips and waist – then connect, gentle smile, breathe, between eyes and T’s, Ts and earth. Strong connection to earth comes from this giving natural control. (Iron Crotch chigung). Discussed on this forum recently – preventing jing stagnation. Also be aware of increased power and not overwhelm partner. Learning new dynamic of yin/yang many levels – allow interaction to change, evolve, in positive ways.
M suggests ‘Wudang’ orbit from MCO audio too.
Inner alchemy level one – inner coupling of male/female energies (‘orgasm’). After chigung practice sit or stand in correct alignment/posture – if sitting in chair leaning forward slightly – breathe naturally – coupling will occur as appropriate in inner space of lower cauldron.
You may receive many comments on this.May 31, 2010 at 2:50 pm #34389
May I ask, is it just your age or do you feel any problems?
Some good things:
pumkin seed is also good for the prostata!
To exercise the prostata with stopping the urine when you
urinate, several times every time you urinate.
In the book “Taoist sexology” by DR, Stephen T. Chang there is somoe good
advises, with things to eat and things to do to make your prostata healthy. For instance he describes how you can massage the prostata to make it healthy and vital. This massge and some other secrets he says is the reason for why it isn´t in china normal for a male at 50+ to have prostata problems.
SDMay 31, 2010 at 2:54 pm #34391
I have the sexual vitality DVD, the 17 disc set that came with it, Qigong fundamentals 1 and 2, and a couple of Mantak Chia’s books but none of them are addressing my concerns or providing information that I haven’t already heard. I’ve also been practicing the martial arts of Hsing-i and Bagua but that kind of qigong hasn’t gotten me any closer to achieving anything resembling the results that Chia and Michael Winn seem to thing their methods will deliver.
The main thing I’m worried about is that this “feeling of congestion” that a lot of practitioners say they feel after using the finger lock, in my case, is not lessened by switching to using the big draw without any finger pressure. I’ve been doing the micro-orbit meditation long enough so I have no trouble feeling energy rising up my spine but that doesn’t seem to help, so I’m seriously questioning the wisdom of any version of this method. Maybe I’m just overlooking something or maybe not all men have exactly the right anatomy for this, I don’t know yet. In my experience there is also no danger of accidentally “overwhelming a partner” since the methods we’re talking about don’t really increase power much anyway. I hate to sound so negative, but I’m honestly trying to understand what I may be doing wrong and trying to make sure I don’t harm myself somehow. Until I get this figured out I just can’t go around recommending these methods to anyone else.
Another thing I should mention is that for more than a couple of decades I’ve been leading a life filled with frustration and disappointment for a variety of other reasons so I’m wondering if that might interfere somehow with my ability to learn these methods. The connections between physical and emotional health can be complicated and mysterious.May 31, 2010 at 8:12 pm #34393
Ok. These methods belong to a whole system and as you say the emotional energies play a big part. Fusion, emotional alchemy, and the other levels of internal alchemy are meant to address this, as you would be aware from reading material on this site- the course material answers many questions. Maybe when Michael is back he will comment.
On the topic of frustration and disappointment – the internal coupling of male and female energies is the ‘engine’ of the universe so initially it is a significant thing to set up a cauldron and contain their interaction. Fire/water are antagonistic opposites to begin with – and the neutral ground is to ‘contain’ their interaction. So the frustration and disappointment may be part of this antagonism, and alchemical cooking will tranform this over time. The enhanced neutral force will then help with the physical (health plus control). The alchemical coupling occurs even with internal chi breathing – having done those forms you must be experiencing that when you focus on the centre. The energies are very volatile – you are not wrong.
Not sure if this will be helpful but I hope so in some way. I wish you well. May the primal parents of the universe support your efforts.June 1, 2010 at 5:02 am #34395
I don’t know if you have done this, but you might find lots of opinions and information on these places:
Things to include:
jing (or jing qi) stagnation and semen retention
crown centered orgasm (that’s the name of one thread where a guy describes his experiences – really strong – with dual cultivation; to address your doubts)
Generally, I like to do some physical stretch and turn of pelvis floor. To relax muscles and prostate, and to let blood flow out of the area (and let in new blood):June 1, 2010 at 11:59 pm #34397
I wasn’t just worried because of my age. I just wasn’t sure whether I could have done any long term harm by practicing all this for about 15 years before I started noticing a feeling of congestion, and the fact that using any of these methods without the finger pressure (the big draw) didn’t result in any less congestion. Sometimes I’ve felt that I was benefiting from this practice but not always. If prostate problems are less common in China than here, that is good news, but how many people over there really do this kind of thing?June 2, 2010 at 12:08 am #34399
I’m afraid the whole population of chi gung practitioners is probably small enough and new enough in this part of the world, so no one has yet gotten around to doing any statistical study on whether we are better off than the Catholic priests when it comes to prostate health, but some countries are certainly better off than others due to cultural dietary habits, etc. Sometimes I’ve also experienced a kind of sexual constipation, where I feel horny but can’t reach orgasm. I don’t know how common that experience is in this community. Maybe it’s what you mean by “stagnation”.
Well, thanks to everyone for all the advice and info. I’ll keep trying to solve the mystery and try not to lose sight of what progress has been made.June 2, 2010 at 6:06 am #34401
There’s been some talk around here about releasing the semen after it’s qi has been circulated enough to ”extract” what matters…
Check it out!
It’s been a recent thread!
(ChiFiend started it)
OJune 2, 2010 at 10:18 am #34403
People who do retention via energetic means may say that “as
long as you do the practices `properly’, there should be no
congestion”. While it is true that perhaps someone isn’t
doing the practice properly, and could be checked for proper
technique, ultimately everyone’s biology and energetic framework
That said, if particular practices don’t feel right to you, then
you shouldn’t do them . . . regardless of whether or not the
theory says they should be good. Ultimately, how they work
or don’t work for you should be the ultimate test. Intuitively
we all know what feels right for us, and it’s that voice we
need to listen to–over and above advice that doesn’t resonate with
that core feeling.
I wouldn’t worry too much about possible “long-term harm” you
may or may not have done:
For one, the human body is self-healing
machine and is designed for survival and self-repair. Given
the proper support, it can heal itself no matter the severity
of the problem . . . part of the roadblock to healing is the
thoughtform that the problem is unrepairable.
Truly change the belief structure, and anything is possible.
For two, if the practices felt OK to you before (with no congestion),
then there’s no reason to believe anything other than the practices
were fine for you then. If they don’t feel good now, then
really that’s only a commentary on how they are now and not
how they were before. Even if they weren’t earlier (which there
is no reason to believe), you should assume that the self-healing
aspect would take care of it.
In other words, what came before shouldn’t be a concern to you now.
The only thing worth devoting energy to, is what you do now in
the moment. And to that end, I recommend asking the question
as to what feels right to you now.
And on that, if some practice you are doing just doesn’t feel
right in your gut for whatever reason, you just shouldn’t do it.
And in doing so, there is no reason you can’t leave open the
possibility that it may be a good practice for some other people
and open the possibility that there may be some variant of the
practice (you haven’t yet been exposed to) that would be right for
you. But again, even with that openness, as to a particular
practice you have to just listen to your gut. That will always
be the right answer far and above anyone else’s theory about
what is right for you.
Let me just close by attaching a post I made earlier in
response to someone who asked about retention.
StevenJune 4, 2010 at 12:05 am #34405
Thanks, you gave me a lot of good news here. I recently went to see a modern Western allopathic doctor, he did all the tests they know how to do, and I was told that all my numbers were so spectacularly good that I was expected to make it to the age of 130 at least. That was also good news but doesn’t get me any closer to understanding why my sex drive has disappeared. It happened too suddenly to be explained by the normal aging process, and it happened without any accompanying changes in diet, training, beliefs, emotions, life situation, etc. For many years I believed that practicing these Taoist methods would keep this from happening the way it usually does in aging, even though I never did learn how to have a multiple orgasm or orgasms in any other area of my body besides genitals. The other chi gung I’m practicing (the martial arts system) is going better than ever and my power in that way only continues growing.
Going with what feels right to me now seems like sort of tragic advice since what feels right at this point is just forgetting about sexuality entirely and just focusing on all other areas of my life. I guess I’ve been wondering if this could be the result of practicing the method for a long time but not the right way or something. It could also be caused by gradually built up frustration and loneliness because in my case it’s always been extraordinarily difficult to find a woman who wants a partner but doesn’t already have one. I technically have a lot to offer, but attractiveness in the way that matters is something else.June 4, 2010 at 8:33 am #34407
>>>Thanks, you gave me a lot of good news here.
>>>I recently went to see a modern Western allopathic doctor,
>>>he did all the tests they know how to do, and I was told that
>>>all my numbers were so spectacularly good that I was expected
>>>to make it to the age of 130 at least.
130 at least, eh? That sounds pretty good; a cause to celebrate.
>>>That was also good news but doesn’t get me any closer
>>>to understanding why my sex drive has disappeared.
>>>It happened too suddenly to be explained by the
>>>normal aging process, and it happened without any
>>>accompanying changes in diet, training, beliefs,
>>>emotions, life situation, etc.
Are you *sure* there have been no changes?
Sometimes if you start eating less or exercising more which
puts you in “calorie-burning” mode, you can temporarily lose
some libido. Other miscellaneous factors can be at work physically.
Sometimes sexual desire can wax and wane over time like
phases of the moon and there is nothing abnormal about it.
Or you could be channeling/redirecting your sexual energy into
some new creative projects that you are doing that are giving
you some fulfillment.
>>>Going with what feels right to me now seems
>>>like sort of tragic advice since what feels
>>>right at this point is just forgetting about
>>>sexuality entirely and just focusing on all other
>>>areas of my life.
What’s tragic about this?
>>>It could also be caused by gradually built up
>>>frustration and loneliness because in my case
>>>it’s always been extraordinarily difficult to
>>>find a woman who wants a partner but doesn’t
>>>already have one. I technically have a lot to offer,
>>>but attractiveness in the way that matters is something else.
Bingo. This is really the issue.
But look, if you don’t currently have a partner, why would
you *want* to be horny and have an intense sex drive? Seems
like that would be pretty frustrating to me. Maybe your
body is just saving you that frustration. There’s no
reason to believe that if maybe you did get into a relationship
with someone that your sex drive wouldn’t change. Warm feelings
with someone you are connecting with can be surprisingly
motivating. But if you are not in a relationship now, why
worry about it? And if you do meet someone, the likelihood
that you are going to be having sex within hours of first
meeting is pretty slim anyway (unless you are the “player”-type,
which you don’t seem to be). As things heat up emotionally,
I would bet that they would physically as well.
You yourself said that you are in excellent physical health,
above board. If that’s the case, there is no reason to
assume anything other than your body is giving you a gift
due to your circumstances and it is temporary, and that
if circumstances change and you do happen to get into a
relationship, then just like the rest of your excellent
physical health, your body will, er, snap to attention 😉
Getting back to what you said about your frustration . . .
Now I could mention a lot of Daoist psycho-babble about
how frustration is a liver issue, and how sex drives, erections,
etc. are also a liver issue, blah blah blah. But I don’t
think that’s terribly important; it’s side-stepping the
real issue. And the real issue is that you feel frustrated
>>>in my case it’s always been extraordinarily difficult to
>>>find a woman who wants a partner but doesn’t
>>>already have one. I technically have a lot to offer,
>>>but attractiveness in the way that matters is something else.
I’ve seen a lot of people who (by society’s standards) are
not very attractive, even possibly unattractive, and yet some
of them are going from one relationship to the next or
are in long-term relationships. Physical attraction is really
only 10% of the equation; 90% is personality, timing, and
availability. Moreover, as to physical attraction, it is
really an individual thing. Speaking completely superficially,
I have friends that will tell me how this person or that
person is so attractive, and I shrug my shoulders; and same
thing conversely. But that’s speaking superficially,
and really it’s the other 90% that’s important. A good
deal of the attractiveness (I find) comes from the person’s
personality. It’s the personality that makes them attractive.
But also it’s the other 90% that is key to finding a partner.
Oftentimes, when people say they want a partner and can’t find
one, actually when you press deeper you realize that actually
they *don’t* really want one. Maybe they have really busy lives
and a lot of activities that they really enjoy, and they really
don’t have time for another person. Maybe they feel bad
about themselves and so they are subtly sending out a message of
“please, just leave me alone”, and so people pick up on that.
Maybe they are so lonely/unhappy with their current state that
they are subtly sending out a message of “I’m miserable and needy”,
which is an unattractive message. Maybe they *want* a relationship
in a romantic sense or to fulfill some sexual fantasy, but
really ultimately aren’t interested in the time and commitment
that another person entails. In other words, there are many many
reasons why the message of “I want a relationship” is really
not the message that is being sent out. It’s something to think about.
“Love is far away; you wait for her; you stop waiting, she’s there”
Read the subtitles in this famous French opera song:
StevenJune 4, 2010 at 9:05 pm #34409
Thanks again, this was even more encouraging. There are some issues you raised that aren’t relevant in my case, like not really wanting a partner on some level because of the sacrifices that would be made for a relationship, stuff like that I can confidently say has never been one of my issues. And appearing too needy or appearing to lack confidence certainly isn’t it either. However, the reason why the martial arts are such a big part of my life is because it’s such a great remedy for mild cases of autism, due to the emphasis on being aware of surroundings and shutting down that internal “monkey mind” enough to communicate with the outside world. The problem I’ve been working to overcome throughout my life has been learning to translate thoughts into words quickly enough. I’ve been told a few times years ago that the things I write and the things I say look like they’re coming from 2 different people since I sound so much more intelligent in writing. That could have something to do with my bad luck in my social life. People have often thought I was shy or aloof when I intended no such thing. I tend to be fascinated by things that most people think are kind of weird. I could go on for hours about curious objects in the Cydonia region of Mars that are probably the ruins of an ancient abandoned alien city and the investigation done by Richard Hoagland and others.
“But look, if you don’t currently have a partner, why would
you *want* to be horny and have an intense sex drive? Seems
like that would be pretty frustrating to me.”
Well, the way I look at it is if I don’t have a partner that is frustrating enough, but not having one AND not feeling like I need one is two reasons to be depressed instead of one. I mean, being in a bad situation is one thing, but at the same time not having much hope that you’ll have a different future is quite another. I guess different people always look at the same thing in different ways. But now that I think about it, there was another time earlier in life when my sex drive crashed when I was failing in every way, then it came back when I was in a different situation. 🙂
By the way, I haven’t heard anything about sex drives and erections being a liver issue, I always heard it was more about the kidneys. Something else I should mention about the difficulty of learning the Taoist system – I read in that other thread you suggested that 1.5 to 2 hours of practice per day isn’t considered much. Wow. I’ve never been in a situation where I was able to devote that much time to it due to all other demands life throws in my way. Except for the weekends sometimes. I’m trying, though.June 5, 2010 at 1:40 am #34411
>>>There are some issues you raised that aren’t relevant in my case,
>>>like not really wanting a partner on some level because
>>>of the sacrifices that would be made for a relationship, stuff like that
Well, I was just providing some examples . . .
But at the same time, what a person feels inside, and what they project are not
always in alignment. Of course, some of the spiritual tools help
bring these things into alignment as a natural consequence through time.
Oftentimes people perceive things that don’t reflect what we feel.
It sucks sometimes, but that’s how it is.
>>>People have often thought I was shy or aloof when I intended no such thing.
Well, oftentimes if you appear shy or aloof–regardless of the
actual reason–it is going to appear to be lack of confidence or appear
to be that you’d rather be left alone. Your intentions don’t necessary
have to reflect how you are perceived.
>>>I tend to be fascinated by things that most people
>>>think are kind of weird. I could go on for hours
>>>about curious objects in the Cydonia region of Mars
>>>that are probably the ruins of an ancient abandoned
>>>alien city and the investigation done by Richard Hoagland and others.
The world is a big place. If you find it interesting, there are going
to be other people who do so as well. Possible partners included.
There’s no reason to make excuses for what you find interesting.
If you like it, great! And there are bound to be others who do so as well.
Stay true to yourself.
>>>Well, the way I look at it is if I don’t have a partner
>>>that is frustrating enough, but not having one AND not feeling
>>>like I need one is two reasons to be depressed instead of one.
I suggest you examine your comment “not feeling like I need one”.
Is your desire for a partner really just a desire for a sexual outlet?
My question here is not a judgement; just something to think about.
If true, there’s not necessarily anything wrong with that. Some
people are quite happy doing their own thing and are happy just having
friends, and it’s only the “sex” part that they miss.
If, on the other hand, it’s the close companionship that you miss,
then the sex is really just an afterthought. And like I said, if you
are healthy, things should probably work just fine if and when a romance
should heat up.
Think about it this way: Do you worry about bread in your house
being moldy if you don’t actually have any groceries? You need
to get the groceries first. 😉
>>>But now that I think about it, there was another time earlier
>>>in life when my sex drive crashed when I was failing in
>>>every way, then it came back when I was in a different situation. 🙂
There you go.
>>>By the way, I haven’t heard anything about sex drives
>>>and erections being a liver issue, I always heard it was
>>>more about the kidneys.
Kidneys are where the sexual energy is produced.
Liver is what actually expresses it.
To help you remember: Wood gives you “Wood”, LOL
>>>I read in that other thread you suggested that
>>>1.5 to 2 hours of practice per day isn’t considered much.
>>>Wow. I’ve never been in a situation where I was able to
>>>devote that much time to it due to all other demands
>>>life throws in my way.
Actually, I mentioned that that was about the MAX I could manage to do
when I was full well busy with my life in grad school. I was
also making a comparison to the 5-6 hour/day average I do when
I’m on a hermit retreat, which is only why I used the word “only”.
I didn’t mean it as a commentary toward how much other people do.
No, I understand how challenging it can be for some to be
able to do much in the way of daily practice. If you can do
*some* practice, at least semi-regularly, then kudos!
StevenJune 5, 2010 at 11:51 pm #34413
I guess I didn’t choose my words very carefully at one point. “not feeling like I need one” was a reference to feeling like I wouldn’t be physically capable of sex, even though my desire for companionship, intimacy, etc. was still as strong as ever. It always has been. But which part of a car is more important and which is the “afterthought”, the engine or the wheels?
Otherwise it doesn’t look like there’s any misunderstanding. This is all very interesting.
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