November 20, 2007 at 10:04 pm #26255
Q&A on Chia’s Fusion practice of Changing 8 Trigrams
From: Michael Winn
Date/Time 2007-11-20 22:01:03
Remote IP: 22.214.171.124
This email exchange may be of interest to some.
On Nov 20, 2007, at 7:15 AM, Mircea LUTIC wrote:
I’d like to ask you a question regarding the usage of the Bagua.
As you may know the way Mantak Chia now teaches fusion includes chanting the houtian (later/postnatal) bagua in a cross-like order : kan-li-zhen-dui-kun-gen-xun-qian. I noticed that in the book and video he teaches it with no chanting but drawing it circularly in the order zhen-xun-li-kun-dui-qian-kan-gen. It seems that the xian tian (early/prenatal) bagua is more related to the polar oposites which are also illustrated by a cross structure. Indeed, it is said to be related to the hetu (river map) diagram which actually looks somewhat like a Maltese cross (or croix pattée). On the other hand houtian (later/postnatal) bagua seems to be related to a circular pattern.
My experience with Mantak Chia’s reccomended chanting being rather confusing I tried chanting the houtian (later/postnatal) bagua circularly as in the book (in the order zhen-xun-li-kun-dui-qian-kan-gen) which gave me a sensation dynamism. Recently I had the idea of chanting the xian tian (early/prenatal) bagua in the cross-like order suggested by Mantak Chia (i.e. in the order kun-qian-li-kan-xun-gen-dui-zhen). The experience was very surprising : I got a sensation of “monumental” – like an imperial palace was being established in my belly.
This begins makes a lot of sense to me in connection to the act of creation. The early/prenatal has the majesty of a well drawn plan or design while the later/postnatal seems to be “running smoothly” although the components look rather mixed up (as opposed to occupying academically correct positions). This seems similar to the experience of setting up a business or other real world process – in other words : “creation”.
I wonder if you found – in your experience – any mention of this dynamic and monumental sensations which other people may have experienced as well. Did you find any mention of usage consistent with this ?
There is also another order I would like to explore (but didn’t so far) which is the order of the binary Gray codes where each two adjacent codes differ by only one digit and also have a circular pattern: 000-001-011-010-110-111-101-100
This is derived from computer engineering though.
I teach these pre-post natal differences beginning in fusion with creation cycle/five phases vs. returning to source/mandala of cross. The bagua is just elaboration of five phase theory from yin-yang viewpoint.
The kan & li as I teach it first uses the reversal of creation cycle to align the post-natal fire/water forces, that is the First Refiining of the Elixir. That begins the internal creation process, formation of immortal embryo.
The Second refining of the Elixir opens up the Monumental in the heart of the early heaven arrangement, and is the subject of a new course (UK retreat taught last September). This is the coupling of yin-within-yang and yang-within-yin, i.e. the pre-natal fire & pre-natal water.
I don’t use the chanting of the trigrams, that is a method Chia borrowed piecemeal from David Shen. I think it can work. I use different toning system I developed beginning with Greater Kan & Li, when exterior/cosmic forces are brought into the cauldron and fed to the inner child. My toning system is based on four sacred directions (horizonal) and three vertical directions/core channel.
hope this helps.
michaelNovember 21, 2007 at 1:12 pm #26256
Shangqing branch of taoism, which combines Lingbao school presents the interior gods methods and chanting or saying the names of the gods, this method is used quite often.
Hou Tian bagua is alot about harmonizng opposing energies, dealing with polarizing forces, looking at fusion 1 we seek to work on emotions, bring them out and fusing opposing emotions, the chanting of opposite trigrams does the same thing. From my view this method is supported in theory and practice, so it comes down to, does it assist you? Later the creation cycle is used, so each method has its time and place and its purpose. One could argue do not use creation cycle to soon, one needs to transform the emotional Qi first then perform the creation cycle transformation, otherwise you can be transporting imblanced emotions in a growing cycles into the organs. Each cycle has its unique transformation qualities.
BaguaNovember 21, 2007 at 5:17 pm #26258
Are someone interested to give me some informaion about fusion. The people training with me from Yudeloves books are going to start fusion from Yudeloves Taoist yoga and sexual energy about in august 2008. Is it risky to do this without a universal tao instuctor. Are there any specifik problems to be observant on in this practise.
And by the way what is the main difference betwean earli Mantak Chia as in his book fusion 1 and Michael Winn and Yudeloves aproach and the new Mantak Chia?
Curious S DNovember 21, 2007 at 6:14 pm #26260
I will let others answer this.
But Michael and M. Chia offer audio courses, why not get them and listen to them and find our for youself, considering its a practice you will do for years, maybe a lifetime the cost is minimal.
BTW, most every teacher will change ro modify their teachings over the years to make them clearer.
baguaNovember 22, 2007 at 3:12 pm #26262
Interesting question you raise about creation cycle and why it should follow fusion of the polarized shen/pearls.
I think my conclusion is different than yours. I think the Creation cycle is transformative in and of itself, and that this is the most natural method of transformation. That is why I teach it first – it parallels the creation cycle practice of the Six Healing Sounds, only instead of releasing toxic chi, it spirals the of the inner organs in a pattern that is expansive, i.e. expressive. So the Healing Sounds release the excess or trapped chi, the Fusion Creation cycle circulates it so that communication on the post-natal level happens more easily. It faciliatates the flow of manifesting consciousness.
The creation cycle is the same as the cycle of the seasons, so this is organic to everyone’s consciousness – it is the process of gradual change. When you circulate the “seasons” (as emotional patterns) internally, they flow organically and are easier to feel and express in healthy ways. That in itself is transformative – you experience each feeling/element changing into something else, the essence of manifesting our feelings in the physical plane. I think Chia/David practice of chanting can move the emotional energy, if you have that intent. Sound is a carrier for feeling. The danger of using mantra is that you OVERRIDE the specific feelings arising in your life with the programmed mantras/sounds.
So I interpret the Hou Tian (Later Heaven) bagua as flowing in a circle/cycle – even though there are discordant energies, the creation cycle is how they are best harmonized, i.e. each shen learns how it is connected to the others while it still holds its own separate identity/function.
The fusion of opposing forces, coupling of fire-water, and wood-metal into earth – is involved in the formation of the inner pearl/seed of true self and represents a turning inward. This i connect with the early heaven bagua and their perfectly mirrored polar forces. This dissolves the outer feeling into a new inner feeling, it is not about expressing and transmuting them into other aspects of the self/five shen. It is about fusing the five shen into a facsimilie of their original nature.
As for differences between Chia and myself and Yudelove (re: Swedish Dragon), I think its very difficult to learn the practice from a book. Reading is head centered, it tends to mentalise the feelings, a problem many men have anyway. That leads to mental manipulation by the head of the feelings, rather than empowering the feelings themselves for what they are. Ultimately this leads to a “dry” practice of head pushing around chi.
Very early on – back in the eighties – I began teaching much of the fusion at Chia’s retreats. The reason is that Chia is Chinese, and they have a different emotional body and sensitivities. Not better or worse, just different. Chia was interested to see how I adapted the Chinese practice to adapt them to westerner’s feelings. There is an element in the original transmission that is a little rigid, perhaps Confucian – all anger has to come from the liver, etc. You will understnad better if you listen to my Fusion 1 audio course, where I explain the differences and how they evolved. And how the Fusion book that got published was quite different from the original fusion practice.
mNovember 22, 2007 at 5:38 pm #26264
Thx Michael. 🙂
For the moment I have no teachers in this beacase my closest teachers have change system and not teach fusion any more. Perhaps I can get some informaion from them anyway. I meet them regularly. I will buy your Fusion 1 audio course as soon as my financial situation allows it.
From the things I have seen here I think you have a wery interesting perspective on the fusion. It seems like you have greate interest in it!
I hope I have the ability to realy feel the feelings and it not will be just a mind tripp thing. Perhaps I come back with questions when starting this practise in a few months. Perhaps it helps to do it with 4 girls. To learn from them. Otherways I feel like this practise realy is my type of practise. We’ll see.
With Regards S DNovember 24, 2007 at 2:43 am #26266
who are/were your local UT teachers? I don’t know of any in Sweden.
michaelNovember 24, 2007 at 4:55 am #26268
They are from Stockholm
Mantak Chia was in Stockholm the year 2000 and had a 5 days long workshop. There I met some other UT teachers from other towns in Sweden also but I don’t think they are so many.
All three today more interested in David Shen and a professor Wang. Unfortunately for me beacase I still like UT best. Please help me turn them back on the right track 🙂 🙂 :).
If you interested you can see at. http://WWW.qigonginstitutet.se
Sincerely S DNovember 24, 2007 at 11:57 pm #26270
I don’t know any of the three you mentioned. But unfortunaely most of the europeans get trained at Tao Garden, and they don’t always have the top instructors present. so foundation may be weak.
mNovember 25, 2007 at 5:12 am #26272
Where in europe do you find top instructors? Do you know?
For future possibilities now I don’t travel due to cold problem.
Sincerely S DNovember 25, 2007 at 1:19 pm #26274
There are a lot of instructors in Germany – do a search on Renu Li or Juan Li, who lives in spain but travels to Germany.
Have the Swedish instructors stopped teaching HT or UT entirely?
I am curious, what was your experience with David Shen teachings that led you to reject it?
mNovember 25, 2007 at 1:58 pm #26276
Thx for the names of instructors saved them for later use.
“”””Have the Swedish instructors stopped teaching HT or UT entirely? “”””
No they haven’t. They do courses in healing love and the basics such as inner smile six healing sound the iron shirt MC and so on. Irene Andersson has also taken up the Tao Yin and is going to do a DVD next weak, and my group of “yudelovians” will participate a litle. Irene is also going to do some animated stuff where you can see how the enrgy acts in the body while doing qigong.
It’s only that they have stoped teaching fusion and other stuff that I want to learn. Stopped this mainly beacase they not self doing it any more. As I have heard they do Davids methods about 2 hours aday, at least Björn Westin manage. Take much time anyway.
“I am curious, what was your experience with David Shen teachings that led you to reject it?
I haven’t at al rejected it. I have taken some courses in the basic form xien shen zuang (I think that was the name) and did exercise it daily for a while. I realy liked the forms but they where quite heard. Difficult and demanding. But they realy go into the depth and loose up the body from within. Realy god stuff. Added something I miss from UT, but noticed Tao Yin have something of it. (looses up muscles like hatha yoga)
Today I investigate the Tao yin. I have some problems with xien shen zhuang beacase its standing forms. I am flat footed and do sweat alot. I also think the exercises was perhaps alitle bit to much. I remember I was thinking when doing them regularly, if this was the first qigong I have had learned I had stoped the qigong exercises completely. Actually I wanted to do them regularly and then continue with the next course more into meditation, but there was not enough participants and I stopped the xien shen zhuang. Had alot of resitance against doing it also.
My thinking on it is to take it up somewhere in the future again. But for the moment I’m into the tao yin that helps me with my body alot and gives me more energy. I will also do the Iron shirt more serious when starting the next book with Yudelove. So for the moment I don’t prioritate David Shens method.
I have noticed some difference, according to my level of knowledge. It seem to me like David Shens path is perhaps more deep but also more narrow. UT has a broader concept of exercises. My goal is in this system and perhaps in the white tigress/tiger system to. But perhaps in the future I go into David Shens system the thunder path also in the future. It’s alot easier beacause then I can have teacers around. My Ut teacers, David Shen and professor Wang are all accesible from whrere I live.
So no rejection of it it is just not my path for the moment.
Sincerely S DNovember 26, 2007 at 12:43 am #26278
I believe the main reason many UT instructors stop meditating is because for years Chia never really developed the kan and li practices – people got stuck in the basics, which became progressively more complicated with pieces from the kan and li but none of their depth.
Even today, it is very difficult to learn in a dark room with 50 other people. That is a powerful experience for many people for other reasons, but not a place to first learn a new practice. And from what I hear, thee are many people in the dark room who are not well prepared for the kan and li level of meditation. So I am not surprised that many would turn elsewhere to find Taoist meditative practices.
That’s the reason I chose to evolve the kan & li practices in my trainings, starting about 12 years ago.
mNovember 26, 2007 at 10:36 am #26280
I’m not shore if this was the reason why they changed system, perhaps. Actually they have had the two systems going paralel to eachother for many years. They think Davids path is more evolved than Mantak Chias and that it is possible to reach further in that path.
What I think myself without beeing at a high level in any of the systems. I think it’s possible to go far in both. It’s not simple in either. If looking at what is written in “the magus of Java” there are few people reaching far in that system.
There only few, if I remember right, reach level 4, and only a few per generetion reach wery high levels and perhaps non in this generation have reach the highest level.
According to my UT instructors they think that David have reached a higher level than Mantak Chia. They also not any more see Mantak Chia as a person 100% dedicated to the practises. Much time and energy goes to comersialism. At least they have told me so.
For me it’s not important. I have met Mantak Chia. I had connection with him. Recognizing one for me special moment. We were alot of students when he was in Stockholm (alot for to be here). I had a hard time following the 5 day long workshop nearly without any practical knowledge in qigong at all. At the end of the last workshop I felt a tremendous happiness ower what he did to the world and me teaching this stuff. I took my hands in front of my heart and to my suprise Mantak Chia seemed to be noticing my feelings and looked up to see from who the positive energies arrived and he found me. After this I dreamt about him from occasion to occasion and he gave me advises on how to treat my illness and more. One of the sugestion I haven’t followed up in total jet. Perhaps thats a mistake.
For me I’m not so impressed by the magicks described in the magus of Java and in the Opening the dragon gate. Ohh yes I’m impressed sorry. But it doesn’t have so big influense in how I choose what to practise. I feel like I want to learn fusion and Kan and Li in my lifetime and this is going wery deep in my soul. And it isn’t easy to change this beacase of people saying another path is better.
Perhaps different paths suit different personalities. And I am a litle bit sceptical against Davids path that seems to be perhaps to narrow. (But for shore certainly focused).
I also heard something interesting last time I did a Xien Shen Zhuang workshop this summer. They was speaken about professor Wang who not exercise anything else but X S Z. But do it twice aday everyday since many years. What I’ve heard was that he wasn’t able to start with energy practises like meditaions on the energies beacase he couldn’t feel them. His path to connecting with the energies was thrue the physical X S Z. I do not recognice myself in this. I’m the opposite. Have got an easy time with meditaion on the energies but qutite much hardship with the physical side of the exercises. That’s another reason why I myself haven’t gone into the X S Z jet. Perhaps in the future.
With regards S D
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