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I decided to pick up this interetesting post by Bagua below as basis for a new thread. I invite others to jump into the discussion.
OLD POST:
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MW
>>This is why I find Bagua’s position on the One as being pre-existent and thus “already achieved” to be confusing the issue of post-natal practice/potential achievement.<< Nnonnth Well I don't want to get into that, I mean everything I'm posting is a way to say why I think that discussion is useless! Of COURSE 'the one thing' is everything! The thing is that the difference in time perception between it and ourselves makes it impossible to say it is already achieved, and impossible also to say it isn't! It's just a silly conversation to have. But I'm probably only opening more cans of merry little worms here. j ************** Bagua: The Tao is everything, we are part of life and therefore part of Tao. Regardless of what our ego/I/intellect/Yi has been conditioned to beleive or shaped by society, parents or life's pathologies we are part of Tao and it is never separate from us, each person just needs to become aware of it and stop believing they are their thoughts and feelings and emotions. One Cloud alchemy is one possible method to achieve this, there are many others. We don't Merge into the One, we can't merge into what we already are, we just focus or become aware of what has always existed, this self realization results in our knowing our true nature and how the I/Ego/Yi/intellect functions is apparent. It does not destroy, kill or eliminate the I/Self/Ego, these are seen in the light of their true function, no more, no less; they will always function but how you respond to them is differnt. In this way your are free, free from the bondage and prison of the narrow ego/self/Yi, you are free to experience life in a normal, dyanmic, spontaneous and natural way. It seems some just do not want to accept the reality they are complete as they are, they dont need to add things, look at much of life as life pathologies and allow what has always existed to be the center of your life. Your perceptions and your actions will be from this normal, natural awareness. What a dynamic, playful, amazing way to live life, ready to accept life in its changing, spontaneous cycles. This is living in the Tao. Qi Gong, Nei Gong, Tai Chi can guide this realization. ----------------- The Key bagua passage I wish to use as spring board for more discussion: (Our self-realization of Oneness) does not destroy, kill or eliminate the I/Self/Ego, these are seen in the light of their true function, no more, no less; they will always function but how you respond to them is differnt. In this way your are free, free from the bondage and prison of the narrow ego/self/Yi, you are free to experience life in a normal, dyanmic, spontaneous and natural way. ---------- thanks, Bagua, for clarifyng your meaning. Your ideas rest on the concept of Original Nature, which is not spelled out in detail here as ot whether that is something uniquely human or different than human. What I'm hearing is another way of expressing the desire to live in the wu wei state, i.e. live spontaneously, but do it cosmically, freely shifting from primal Oneness to post natal unique-ness. I wholly support your efforts for people to become aware that wu wei is the natural state of things. My comments should not be taken as criticism of your desire. Rather as attempting to clarify the notion of Self vs. the notion of Mind. I think one disagreement I have here is whether the notion of wu wei carries any assumption that the post-natal self existed before it was born. So this is also a discussion about the nature of Self and its relationship to the underlying primal field of existence. Taoists cosmologically would say humans divided out from the Original Three Ones (three aspects of the primoridal - yuan jing, yuan chi, yuan shen in one version, or in another, humans were born from heaven and earth coupling). Existence and Self are not the same in my view and in my understanding of this cosmology. You define self in the above passage as "narrow and limited", i.e. suggesting that our lesser "self" is related to the limitations of the post natal mind, and that if you shift the mind to other pre-existing realms, the limitations disappear. But in Tao Cosmology, if you shift back to the Origin, you are in Hundun, Creative-Chaos, and there were no human selves in existence - that was a later evolution that happens after division into Beings. The question raised here by your position: once "you" shift realms, isn't that saying that the limited self has already become something different, i.e. unlimited? There are not two selves here, only one you say. But it sounds like you are taking the viewpoint that the Self is something unlimited and multi-dimensional, but that the human being is not a self, just a collective of thoughts and emotions and physical sensations, i.e. a MIND, that the real Self observes from other dimensions of Unlimitedness. Am I understanding you correctly? I believe this is similar to the position of the later Mahayana Buddhists (not to politicize the discussion, just trying to clarify it). That the Great self is real, but the lesser self is an illusion which you can suddenly wake up to. You are equating "lesser self" with "mind" and its narrow illusions of "selfness". I view this shift itself from limited emotions, etc. to greater cosmic self as an act of transforming the post-natal self into something completely new - a phase of self that never pre-existed before that moment. I see that new greater cosmic self as a totally new integration of post-natal experience and pre-natal awareness. In my view the existence of a pre-existing or higher dimensional field of consciousness itself doesn't necesaarily imply that the SAME post-natal self pre-existed in a different time zone or space. As i understand your view, the real self was just hiding in another dimension, and now decided to peek in on its "lower, limited self, but that they are essentially the same "self". That only one self exists, divided into many minds and bodies. I think this is the difference between our views, but correct me if I am wrong. A simple way to see my position is the analogy of parents and children. Something of the parents self- their jing/essence - shapes the child, but the child is not the same "self" as the parents - each has a unique destiny and unique self-awareness. The child's Self (we could also call it soul) is composed of three sources of jing - the mother, father, and the yuan jing from the primal field, probably not direct, but filtered thorugh an oversoul vibration. So the child is similar to the parent and linked to its ongoing unfoldment within the Tao, but they are different in the shape of their essence, which defines their "selfness" in my view. The same difference is found in the the "greater" and "lesser" self multi=dimensionally - they are linked, like parent and child, to a common field and thread of evolution, but their experience is unique, i.e. different. A parent and child love each other and can develop deep mutual sharing and understanding; likewise, the greater self and the lesser post natal self can learn to share thru qigong and meditation methods or spontaneous awareness their shared experience of the Life Force. Perhaps this analogy to parent-child ends at death. The lesser self may ordinarily "die" or be dissolved back into the greater Self, which does not experience mortality by itself, only thru its post-natal "child". This might be seen metaphorically as a kind of mis-carriage by a woman: the seed of a new self is growing within her, but it sometimes doesn't come to full term. The mother absorbs the seed-self back into her body. But WHAT IF the post-natal child grows up to full term and spiritually re-births, through spiritual methods or spontaneous awakenings that allow it to hold the full awareness of the "parent" WITHIN the physical realm? then that child may be said to have achieved immortality and will NOT be dissolved back into the parent at death, but continue beyond its physical death, growing and exploring and maturing that lesser self that was originally seeded into physical plane by the mother-greater self. That is when the lesser self truly begins to share the experience of the Greater Self, but from its own unique perspective. They still exist as family in the higher dimensions - merged, but not dissolved, in a totally new and unique experience of loving each other in different dimensions. This is how I believe the Cosmos re-imagines itself and gradually replaces itself, so the old Greater Self can move on to cteate other Cosmos instead of babysitting a seed-projection of itself on this one planet. That greater mother self is also not to be confused with the primal field of existence. Yes, the Greater Self was also born out of that field. This is how we get levels of "self", called soul and oversoul in the west. The process of cosmological division has many levels to it - all connected to the primordlal field of existence, but each a unique pattern of jing and thus different in some critical way from the parent primal field. Thus the necessary distinction between Beings arising with the field of Existence vs.the Existence/Non-existence continuum itself. It is possible we are saying the same thing using different words, but are disagreeing about the accessibility of the different levels of Self. I think you may be saying just be aware sponteanously of all the levels of Self and are calling them One Self or Oneness, whereas I am saying it requires great training and discipline to be able to truly hold the reality of that greater consciousness within the lesser self. I am saying that there is a difference between having your shen /xin/ heart mind having on-off-on glimpses into its own greater potential vastness vs. having your personal jing actually hold stable the vibration of the yuan jing stepped down through the Greater Self and stabilized within the Lesser Self. That is what I am calling the highest level of Self Realization, i.e. making the newly seeded post-natal self real beyond its mortal life experience. There may be another underlying disagreement, over what constitutes true experience of Self. I would say you need a conscious center of gravity. I think the lesser self can have awareness of the general or universal process of Self-ness arising out of the primal field of the Life Force, i.e. simply noticing change and accepting it as an expansion from any previous level of self -awareness. i accept that having that greater awareness connects you by resonance to all selves going thorugh the same process. There is an awarness of the common ground or Oneness that all beings share, just like all humans stand with the unique two feet on the one planet. I would call this expanding awareness the enlightenment process. I think both states are very enlightened, but I consider the former - the experience of having a specific center of gravity from which to create a unique reality - to be different from the latter, i..e the experience of immortality vs. that of the general enlightenment process. Not better or worse. But serving a different function in the unfoldment of the Tao and the process of creation. Does you see any usefulness in the distinction I am making? Smiling to Our Potential Immortality, MichaelHello Michael:
Glad you dropped in from the Isles of Immortals.
Your heading question is simple enough but your post is quite long covering a lot of ground, so I will focus on essential things.
WM
“thanks, Bagua, for clarifyng your meaning. Your ideas rest on the concept of Original Nature, which is not spelled out in detail here as ot whether that is something uniquely human or different than human.”
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Your welcome, I just hope I did and you received my transmission as it was meant to be.MW
What I’m hearing is another way of expressing the desire to live in the wu wei state, i.e. live spontaneously, but do it cosmically, freely shifting from primal Oneness to post natal unique-ness.
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Its not a choice whether our true nature exists or not at all times, it is always here, just the fact you are alive is proof of this, this “aliveness” is your true nature. The most basic principle of Tao Teh Ching (TTC) is you cannot not name it, cannot describle it, cannot grab it, but you can feel it, you know it exists. THis is what I am talking about.MW
I think one disagreement I have here is whether the notion of wu wei carries any assumption that the post-natal self existed before it was born. So this is also a discussion about the nature of Self and its relationship to the underlying primal field of existence. Taoists cosmologically would say humans divided out from the Original Three Ones (three aspects of the primoridal – yuan jing, yuan chi, yuan shen in one version, or in another, humans were born from heaven and earth coupling).Existence and Self are not the same in my view and in my understanding of this cosmology. You define self in the above passage as “narrow and limited”, i.e. suggesting that our lesser “self” is related to the limitations of the post natal mind, and that if you shift the mind to other pre-existing realms, the limitations disappear. But in Tao Cosmology, if you shift back to the Origin, you are in Hundun, Creative-Chaos, and there were no human selves in existence – that was a later evolution that happens after division into Beings.
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You tend to focus on narrow manifestions of life. Lesser, Pre, Post, very polarizing viewpoint. Ego/Yi/intellect is one functioning of our being, a tool like feet, hands, nose, mouth, just like we can overuse our human tools we can overuse our intelect/Yi, and it can be manipulated and distored, much of tao practices are to revtify this and bring it into a normal state, a balanced state, which allows one to experience life in a natural, spontaneous way, this is a type of alchemy. In my experience Tao practices are about the here and now, not in the world of imagination, before you were born, after you die. Show me in Lao Zi and Zhaung Zi they are about living in other dimensions?WM
The question raised here by your position: once “you” shift realms, isn’t that saying that the limited self has already become something different, i.e. unlimited? There are not two selves here, only one you say. But it sounds like you are taking the viewpoint that the Self is something unlimited and multi-dimensional, but that the human being is not a self, just a collective of thoughts and emotions and physical sensations, i.e. a MIND, that the real Self observes from other dimensions of Unlimitedness.
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Like waves come from the ocean, you can percieve then as separate from the ocean, that is were the originate, that is were they return. The fundamental principle is we are one whole, the original diagram of Taoists is a cirlce, not the tao qi symbol, which is a confucian invention.Every aspect of you is part of the whole, nothing is separate, how could it be. My understanding is of wholeness, not separation.
We are both physical and energy, both dense and sublte, the sublte is immortal. The chinese tried the physical immortal thing and learned from many deaths thats not the way.
MW
Am I understanding you correctly? I believe this is similar to the position of the later Mahayana Buddhists (not to politicize the discussion, just trying to clarify it). That the Great self is real, but the lesser self is an illusion which you can suddenly wake up to. You are equating “lesser self” with “mind” and its narrow illusions of “selfness”.
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I think they mean your thoughts and emotions come and go, they are not you true nature, im sure you would agree. otherswise why do the sounds, smile and fusion 1.each of these passages were really good to read..
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I view this shift itself from limited emotions, etc. to greater cosmic self as an act of transforming the post-natal self into something completely new – a phase of self that never pre-existed before that moment. I see that new greater cosmic self as a totally new integration of post-natal experience and pre-natal awareness.In my view the existence of a pre-existing or higher dimensional field of consciousness itself doesn’t necesaarily imply that the SAME post-natal self pre-existed in a different time zone or space. As i understand your view, the real self was just hiding in another dimension, and now decided to peek in on its “lower, limited self, but that they are essentially the same “self”. That only one self exists, divided into many minds and bodies.
I think this is the difference between our views, but correct me if I am wrong.
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A simple way to see my position is the analogy of parents and children. Something of the parents self- their jing/essence – shapes the child, but the child is not the same “self” as the parents – each has a unique destiny and unique self-awareness. The child’s Self (we could also call it soul) is composed of three sources of jing – the mother, father, and the yuan jing from the primal field, probably not direct, but filtered thorugh an oversoul vibration. So the child is similar to the parent and linked to its ongoing unfoldment within the Tao, but they are different in the shape of their essence, which defines their “selfness” in my view.The same difference is found in the the “greater” and “lesser” self multi=dimensionally – they are linked, like parent and child, to a common field and thread of evolution, but their experience is unique, i.e. different.
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That greater mother self is also not to be confused with the primal field of existence. Yes, the Greater Self was also born out of that field. This is how we get levels of “self”, called soul and oversoul in the west. The process of cosmological division has many levels to it – all connected to the primordlal field of existence, but each a unique pattern of jing and thus different in some critical way from the parent primal field. Thus the necessary distinction between Beings arising with the field of Existence vs.the Existence/Non-existence continuum itself.
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my point in posting is to try to get a really clean version of the theory..
one thought that comes to mind is that I do not think people think about or comprehend the perfection of heaven.. i say this in the sense of the greater cosmos.. and i say it based out of past experience of the universe as a vast hologram of light and geometry.. as perfect precise and coordinated as the geometries of electron orbitals.. pulsating with vast universal communication systems and higher intelligences
Plato’s allegory of the cave comes to mind, as does the academy, as a gateway into knowledge of the divine architecture of the cosmos.. (please pass compass and squares at this point..)
perhaps that’s an illusion but i personally have had enough experience of it to at least hope..
My point is the details are so murky..
1) someone could say, hey the universe is composed of a consciousness field.. it has various subsets and goes through yin yang cycles and functions at a more dreamy impersonal level of awareness than we normally experience.. at death, our little sub field fades away never to return.. our experience of the divine will come from a temporary uplink to that vast original dream like consiousness space.. thats all we mortals can aspire for..
2) someone could say that somehow there is a nucleus inside of our souls that is like a coded force field which comes from somewhere… and at death disentangles only t o be implanted again..but does not necessarily involve any higher self, perhaps it was even born from DNA itself.. and passes generation to generation..
but who knows which is real..
my question after reading this is, is it possible to synopsize the theory?
1) is there an individual self that exists before birth and after death, and if so what was it’s origin?..
2) pending question 1, is this transient self part of
A: one consciousness that has now totally lost it’s individuality pending a new physical rebirth
B: actual individual consciousnesses that somehow survive through
C: some kind of temporary null zone within one vast consciousness field where you will remember something of the last life when you come back in again as an individual3) pending all the above, if there is a “greater self” within our normal self.. is it simply that one universal field or are there some levels in-between such as an overself related to a prior incarnation or perhaps even an evolving personality within multiple lifetimes.. is for example there a greater self at some larger level that is like an indivudual experiencing multiple lifetimes?
4) how much must evolve and how much is already there?
my best guess is that souls are like starseeds, or khabs in egypt.. they are based around a supernatural reactor of a force we call love that is part of something we can barely comprehend.. the universe is probably some sort of eternal cycle, where wombs are dark and furtile, and stars are warm loving and expansive..
there is something going on at an atomic and quantum level that is ideal and allows for the real existence of a human soul.. probably as a genuine magnetic-force field
I do not know where this soul originated, but it does at times appaear to be within things, a heaven within, where different lives are just different facets of it’s existence within some sort of hyperspace..
my impression is that this nucleus may require transport..and that it is possible to evolve and store memories as fields that go along with it.. so that perhaps various species throughout the universe have evolved a memory structure which survives and evolves through reincarnation
i am actually more heavily inclined towards this than the more cosmic soul origin.. primarily bgecause i am open to the possibiity that the “soul” came into existence as a product of dna but can be transited along the infrastructure of the chain as part of an interstellar network of evolving translife magnetic fields..
then there is the question of what the chritians call the holy spirit.. divine universal god love through the heart.. which begs the question of how that yuan shien operates..
Since yoour post is long I decided to split my response in a few posts.
MW
I view this shift itself from limited emotions, etc. to greater cosmic self as an act of transforming the post-natal self into something completely new – a phase of self that never pre-existed before that moment. I see that new greater cosmic self as a totally new integration of post-natal experience and pre-natal awareness.
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Can you show us were in tao teachings this view is presented, something brand new is created, you dont have this now, you are lacking, defecient? The Yuan SHen is lacking and deficent?This new intergration, in my view is realizing what has always existed, this is the big cosmic joke, the incredible simple aspect of this all, that it has always exsisted but we were looking elsewhere. As Lao Zi says,no need to go searching oout of the house, everything is here, and it is here in the NOW in the present moment.
WM
A simple way to see my position is the analogy of parents and children. Something of the parents self- their jing/essence – shapes the child, but the child is not the same “self” as the parents – each has a unique destiny and unique self-awareness. The child’s Self (we could also call it soul) is composed of three sources of jing – the mother, father, and the yuan jing from the primal field, probably not direct, but filtered thorugh an oversoul vibration. So the child is similar to the parent and linked to its ongoing unfoldment within the Tao, but they are different in the shape of their essence, which defines their “selfness” in my view.
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As a parallel, this view to me is chasing the changing aspects of life, what the parent and child do have in common is they are from the same universe/creator/Tao, and they have the capicity to realize this and live from that space and most every mystical traditions agrees with this. You can chase the reasons why each person has differences in their genetics, emotional and personalty, but the goal is the same for all of humanity, self-realization.WM
Does you see any usefulness in the distinction I am making?
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I did not respond to some things at the end as I feel they are very speculate, so I prefer not to comment on them What I have seen is taoist models and creative people placing all kinds of theories into them to use them as support. From my understanding Pre and Post heaven exists simulateneously, they are not separate things, but may explain different functions in the world. The models and formulas tend to make things very linear, if one can use them as a tool to see their own immoratlity or enternal nature great, if they create stress, fear and panic because they one feels inferior of incapable of fullfilling the “immortal practice process” then I feel they are a barrier to self realization and one may want to find another way.From my understanding, there is a huge difference from studying theory, history, cosmology and traditions, it seems people of all paths that truly seek spiritual truth knowing what they really are and living from this space is what it all about, all the other things is relatively worthless compared to this. IMHO.
So lets Smile and be aware of what already exists, this is you.
A quote I feel is suberb, its not formally taoist, but it in my view reflects tao.
“There is no development or deepening in conscious-presence. That already is, and you already are that. Knowing yourself is not a path of becoming. It is a matter of being. Becoming implies time, a goal and someone to reach it, all of which are purely conceptual. You do not become what you are. You are what you are. This is simpler than we imagined. You are already what you are seeking. Just pause and see what is here and now natural and effortless being and awareness that is utterly simple, clear and undeniable.”
Smiling in the Tao my old friend.
baguaThere is no development or deepening in conscious-presence. That already is, and you already are that. Knowing yourself is not a path of becoming. It is a matter of being. Becoming implies time, a goal and someone to reach it, all of which are purely conceptual. You do not become what you are. You are what you are. This is simpler than we imagined. You are already what you are seeking. Just pause and see what is here and now natural and effortless being and awareness that is utterly simple, clear and undeniable.”
This sounds like a really appealing philosophy, and I think the focus on Being helps people accept themselves unconditionally, ala the Inner Smile, since most people have doubt about their connection to the ground of being.
On the other hand, this is really a “head in the sand” philosophy, that overlooks that the major process of Being is BECOMING. There is no self-realized person I’ve ever met or even heard of who has managed to escape this process of Becoming and settled into a state of Pure Being that was in anyway separaate from Becoming.
This is the essence of the Tao – it is always unfolding its Te, its spiritual power/virtue,/essence. The process is well defined in the Tao Te Ching – the principle of return, of reversion is the process. And the TTC gives many methods to support it, and you yourself support those methods – so obviously humans have free will to intervene in the process.
I don’t feel you really responded to my questions about the nature of self and its relationship to the ground of existence/being. You say the purpose of life is Self-Realization. What does the “self” in that sentence refer to?
Is a terrotist setting off an atomic bomb in Los Angeles self-realizing themself? If they pull the bomb trigger effortlessly, and joyfully, offering their own life at the same moment, and feeling it is their original nature instructing them to do so, does that make them self-realized and ato be emulated by others? What about the other two million souls destroyed in the blast who believe they have a separte destiny? That is why I say this philosophy is “head in the sand”.
Just saying we are all one being, nothing else matters – doesn’t resolve the real dilemma facing humans, their every day conflicts. It doesn’t deal with the tension implicit in this reality, and consequences of human free will. Free Will is another way of saying the process of Self taking responsbility for Becoming. I feel the flight to “Being” is a way to avoid responsibility – everything can be blamed on Original Nature, or God, no need to do anything about it.
I agree with the Buddhist in one sense – that most people do not have a real self, they are mostly a cocktail of reactionss.. But I see their soul as a potential self, if it integrates here in the post-natal. All the dimensions are present here – that is exactly what the Tao is talking about – that heaven, Earth, Humanity and Tao all are part of a single process. The question here is, what is the function of humanity in the Tao process? That is why humans are ensouled and given free will – they have a privileged position of power, and hence a responsibility.
The Tao Te Ching makes it clear that when people deviate from unfolding their inner virtue, that there are destructive consequences. And there are many passages that support the notion that those who follow Tao will achieve great longevity as part of their virtue. This all implies cultivating as a process of manifesting, becoming. So I feel its meaningless to say “its all inside you” – the challenge is how to manifest that potential inside you, i.e. to allow Original Nature to BECOME in the post natal realm.
Why else did original nature divide itself into Beings, and introduce the experience of suffering and ignorance?
To provide an impulse towards greater learning.The whole of the Tao Te Ching is about the uniqueness of each moment, rather than the sameness implied by making Original nature an absolute or unchangeable state. The metaphor of the Ocean vs. the Waves is equally mis-leading: the human waves in this case have free will, and can move in a different direction if they choose. And let’s consider that water holds memory – so that each wave, each human decision, is held in the universal memory as a Self that realized it could create not only a wave, but entirely new oceans as a playground for the unfolding self.
Implying that human free will doesn’t matter, because all the waves will eventually just become part of the same old ocean again – is the kind of determinism that has paralyzed Hinduism (for example). It implies that the primal ground, or original nature, doesn’t change – when the Taoist philoosphy is that the Tao is Always Changing.
So if all is one – if the primal ground and billions of selves are ONE – then the primal ground changes in response to each cell/Self changing. This means that simplicity and complexity are ONE – and reducing the complexity of Becoming to a siimplistic reduction of Beingness is only looking at half the equation, and IGNORING that the ground of Being is actually the motive force generating the complexity of Becoming.
Why did the Tao and humanity’s Original Nature create such complexity, and humans with a potential Self that becomes more Realized with every responsible expression of free will?
Smiling to your Self Realizing the Uniqueness of Tao,
Michael… is very much the same as Michael’s last one:
>>Why did the Tao and humanity’s Original Nature create such complexity, and humans with a potential Self that becomes more Realized with every responsible expression of free will?<<
Bagua if the entire point of life for humans is self-realization that means self-realization must actually DO something. If not it would make no difference to anything, so it could not be the point of life.
This means that realization changes the person, making them different from what they were before.
If so, it is indeed a question of becoming, since change is becoming something different. If becoming were not important we would not arise on this earth in order to become, and the earth herself would not exist in order to become, and the entire universe would not exist in order to become. All of it is becoming and this is its purpose. The underlying ground of beingness is activated by time and becomingness.
If this were not so, no-one would come here in the first place, no-one would be born. What a mistake everyone is making, to keep finding bodies for no reason! Especially that fool the dalai lama, coming back again and again, all for nothing, since nothing makes any difference nor has anything but a conceptual basis until its non-becomingness is realized.
What a mistake by the tao, to build all this for no reason! Since everything already was and 'had all it needed' originally, there was never any reason for anything to be developing in time, what a tremendous error of the tao that it never realized this! What a silly mistake for it to create all these things that move in time, when the movement in time is an illusion which accomplishes nothing – how could it accomplish anything when even if it attains profound realization and changes radically, this is still *becoming* and thus 'not real'?
Unless in fact realization *does* change something in us, and that change *is* vitally important, to the universe as well. Unless in fact there *is* good reason for it all happening. Unless in fact what happens here results in some definite gain, some important progress, some – evolution.
But no! You say that can't be. Since we 'aready have everything we need' there is nothing to be gained by anything, there is no evolution and in fact no point to existence. There is not even any point trying to be a better or worse person since whether people are miserable or they are happy, they still 'have everything they need' if they only could be bothered to 'realize' it.
My question to you Bagua is this: if realization is the point of human existence, how can it at the same time do nothing? The point of something is precisely its essential meaning or effect, its *purpose*. If nothing is done, there is no purpose, therefore there is no point in realization.
So realization must do something, in other words, it makes a *change*. And that change is a *becoming*, and *becoming* is the point of existence. *Beingness* requires realization in *becomingness*.
j
i think bagua has an excellent point which comes down to
1) peace
2) appreciation
3) the dinvinity of the mundane realized as such…this is almost like one of those tribal death rituals where you are filled with gratitude for just being alive..
i think it goes in cycles and is an important point for those seeking anything.. a phase of being peaceful and giving up and just enjoying what is..
as far as development i think the circuit model is a direct on target system..
and that you and others are the necessary ingrediant for change and development..
just two phases along the way, both leading to each other..
Tao pratice is not filled with intellectual analysis, conceptual analysis, almost everything you discuss is theory and ideas and concepts, much is to justify a method, a meaning, a theory, an alchemy that can step by step explain the creation of the universe. Everything I read and study and practice in Tao, from Lao Zi to Zhuang Zi to Quan Zhen, does not support nor promote this view. So from my view all the things you mention are not a taoist view from the taoists traditons I mentioned.
You intellect can not grasp what I am saying, you must rely on other aspects of your being, which is what Taoist practices are about, to realize and live from what has always existed and always exists. The Sun and Moon and stars exist, period. I dont try to explain why they exist, but your theories are explaining a rationale for all existence.
Be aware of are liveliness, your true nature, it is perfect, it is complete now. It is not dependent on your intellect to confirm this. It is you intellect and emotions and societial conditioning that has twisted one in knots, dont look for this twisted knot to figure this out.
Live from this place, your true nature, then you will enjoy the changing and dynamic nature of life in a spontaneous way and in this way you will benefit all around you. You won’t define things, won’t categorize things, you will be free from this way of living life and live in the way of Lao Zi.
… there is, simply, truth.
Since I have been demonstrating on the ‘philosophy’ board right now that all traditions have the same goal in mind, your statement:
>>You intellect can not grasp what I am saying, you must rely on other aspects of your being, which is what Taoist practices are about<>The Sun and Moon and stars exist, period. I dont try to explain why they exist, but your theories are explaining a rationale for all existence.<>You won’t define things, won’t categorize things, you will be free from this way of living life and live in the way of Lao Zi.<<
… is pretty insulting for anyone who has no desire to 'be a taoist' to hear; many people find the withinness of divine you are talking about – it is what the rosicrucians for example call 'Living the Peace Profound'. It is not Lao Zi's invention.
As for the rest of what you said – I am not discontent with the way I live so I am not seeking to live Bagua's way! However I will certainly continue to state the truth as I see it.
And the truth is simply this: if the purpose of life is realization, then realization makes a change in the nature of life. And if it makes a change, it means that change is important, and it means that evolution and becoming are important, and that being requires becoming – and that is the *true* reason for existence, which does not deny your reason, but amplifies it into what we see around us. If you would like to answer this point, I would love to hear your answer! But please spare me the head-patting and preaching. j
Since this is a Taoist forum you should expect people to to talk and reference taoist practices, materials and traditions.
Self Realization is just being in the natural state, which we always can do as it always exists. Its just a word, its my attempt to express being natural, normal. Language is always a limiting tool.
Becoming is just a word to express a perspective, a view where one does not feel or believe they are were they are going. From the perspective of “true nature” or your yuan shen, you are Being, are are this thing you seek, it has always been and it exists now. The intellect and ego buys into the the idea of a separate self and gives life or QI or Blood or Jing to these beliefs and emotions, which create polarity and suffering, and conditions these patterns and habits, but your yuan shen is always there. We practice to become aware of what exists now and to live from this awareness or spirit or being.
If you quote me please keep the entire discussion in the quote, thanks.
Smiling in the tao,
baguaHey Bagua,
It seems that your view is based on an interpretation of Lao Zi and Zhuang Zi, as “being one in the tao” through acceptance/observation of your natural state without will to direct the course of events. So, in your experience, do events have a course of unfolding or are they all simultaneous, ever present, all future and all past at once?
My experience of being alive in the physical plane is that I am constantly a different person than I was before certain events happened to me, before I practiced certain things. The appearance of linearity is simultaneously real with the now, time for me has a past and future, although I exist in the ever-changing now, which may be a good analogy for how I see the alchemical formulas, as increasing the experience of being able to process the connection to the present inner source while also processing the flow of energy.
This brings us to the next important question: do we simply exist and go with the flow, or are we exerting free will and intention on our process of change, on our process “becoming” in the past, present and future?
If your practice is based on “being one in the tao now”, how do you view the linearity of time?
In my opinion disharmony is self evident, and disharmony arises from the level of the soul. I do not think anyone feels that the Yuan is out of balance in of its self but the lack(not that it is not there, that is impossible) of Yuan is self evident in the disharmony of the yin yang of the soul which gives rise to the disharmony on the other levels. I do not think any one believes that practice and maintenance is not need. I do not know of any tradition that does not employ daily practice to maintain or achieve whatever they are trying to achieve, this can be simple or complex. There is no realization or intention conscious or unconscious that does not relate to the harmony or disharmony of the soul in my opinion. I think the little yuan that is there guides best it can in the craziness that is yin and yang out of balance and we can increase the chances of success by passing on our wisdom and resonating our harmony.
I hope I have added something to this conversation.
chi in I am out
this has been a DOG the fun GOD perduction.>>Since this is a Taoist forum you should expect people to to talk and reference taoist practices, materials and traditions.<>Self Realization is just being in the natural state, which we always can do as it always exists<>Becoming is just a word to express a perspective, a view where one does not feel or believe they are were they are going<>From the perspective of “true nature” or your yuan shen, you are Being, are are this thing you seek<>The intellect and ego buys into the the idea of a separate self<>We practice to become aware of what exists now and to live from this awareness or spirit or being.<<
All people practice for this, but not everyone practices for *just* this. j
YOUR FULL QUOTE:
Since this is a Taoist forum you should expect people to to talk and reference taoist practices, materials and traditions.
Self Realization is just being in the natural state, which we always can do as it always exists. Its just a word, its my attempt to express being natural, normal. Language is always a limiting tool.
Becoming is just a word to express a perspective, a view where one does not feel or believe they are were they are going. From the perspective of "true nature" or your yuan shen, you are Being, are are this thing you seek, it has always been and it exists now. The intellect and ego buys into the the idea of a separate self and gives life or QI or Blood or Jing to these beliefs and emotions, which create polarity and suffering, and conditions these patterns and habits, but your yuan shen is always there. We practice to become aware of what exists now and to live from this awareness or spirit or being.
If you quote me please keep the entire discussion in the quote, thanks.
I can see now more clearly where you are coming from, Bagua.
This is not really a discussion about self-realization. You cannot answer the question what self means to you, it is irreelevant to your fundamental position. It is about our focusing attention on what the Taoists call wuming, the Nameless.
The TaoTe Ching mentions wu ming, but it also mentions the YouMing, the Named, which is also described s the Mother of all things. Its process is well described in verse 42, the foundation verse for al lTao cosmology: Tao gives birth to the One, One gives birth to Two, Two to Three, the Three give birth to the 10,000 Things, This is how Beings arise. We are those beings, which then “return” our fundamental trinitarian Origin to live more harmoniously in their daily life.
To claim Tao is only about the Nameless, beyond mind, beggars the questions as to why Lao Tzu wrote 5000 characters or “names” to give insight into the Tao. It is up to the indivdiual to focus on any level of the process – but certainly the mind cannot experience the One without losing the three (left brain, right brain, core self-perception, or whatever trinity one wants to use to define mind function).
So really what you are saying is, “I am using Names (words) to let you know that allI I find valuable is the Nameless, beyond words. But if you reply to my words using your own words, they will have no real meaning, since they are just words”.
I suggest you read the scholarly digests of the 700 Chinese commentaries on the TaoTeChing. I suggest the book Religious and Philosophical Aspects of the Laozxi , edited by Csikszentmihalyi and Ivanhoe will give you a much broader perspective. I suspect you have been heavily influenced by Hu’s recent commentary, which is very Buddhist-Daosit mix.
While everybody under the sun turns the Laozi into a way of supporting their own beliefs – from confuciansists to politicians to Buddhists, the vast majority of the Chinese interpretations focus on the Taoist alchemical principles within the text. So if “voting” counts, your analysis of attempting to dismiss all other interpretations of the TTC other than your own is incorrect.
Or read Prof. Chad Hansen’s analysis of how Tao was used at the time of its writing – as PRACTICAL PATH or guide to living, to help one face the dificult decisions. He is a top Taoist scholar and argues that “Eternal Tao” as a translation of ‘chang dao” is a mistranslation, that shold be read “the Tao that can be spoken of is not a constant Tao”, ie. meaning that the true tao is always changing, and it in no way fixed or eternal in conventional religious sense you seem to be giving Original Nature.
But to get to the heart of this discussion, I feel it is really about simplcicity vs. complexity of spiritual practice.
And I agree that simplicity is the foundation of Tao practice, wu wei/spontaneity is its prime mover. No argument. Hence, focus on Inner Smile in the beginning and throughout all the formulas as one discovers it is possible to grasp deeper levels of the simple. But simple does NOT mean “oneness” – it implies a level of harmony, which requires multiplicity.
Dropping ordinary thoughts/mind does NOT mean the deeper “mind” of the Energy Body ceases functioning. The Energy Body could really be viewed as the “functional mind” of our personal Soul. And it is needed to maintain harmony and balance in physical plane. Without it, self/ ling stops existing, will is not expressed through the avenues of the five shen/xin/ordinary mind.
Oneness is a state in which no distinctions can be made, iwhich is why it is also called Chaos or hundun.
That seems to be what yo uare referring to – return to the nameless primordial state, nothing else is real or is being perceived by mind.My point is that it is impossible to “regress” to the primordial state of oneness – all that can be accomplished from here is to “RETURN” THE PRIMAL AWARENESS TO THE POST-NATAL STATE. That is the major theme of the Lao Tzu, that is what the “Superior Man” does. That is bringing in greater influence of the yuan jing, chi, and shen into this physical plane present moment. I think we really agree on that.
The question remains, what is the value of the yin-yang and five phase cycles that the Taoists have so diligently mapped out, both in inner alchemy and medicine and many other worldly applications?
I think it is essential to recognize that these Taoist cycles can be seen not as Complexities, but as Simplifiers.
They are a way of simplifying billions of bits of information (the 10,000 things) into much simpler yin-yang and five phase cycles to that we can interact with them in a more harmonious and balanced way. Tossing them all out as “mind” or “illusions” is throwing out the baby with the bath water.Yes, if the mind focuses exclusively on these cycles and practices that cultivate them, it can lose the forest for the trees. And certainly many Taoists have done that, including Healing Taoists. See my article on Inner Smile: Secret to Being True and Simple, written back in 1999, about a meeting of Senior Instructors assessing the first 20 years. http://www.healingdao.com/cgi-bin/articles.pl?rm=mode2&articleid=6 (linked below)
But my experience of the kan and li formulas is that once you’ve worked with them, they get progressively simpler, always taking the prime trinity of jing chi shen to deeper levels of experiencing the trinity on cosmic levels. Three is the simplest level possible – beyond that that, cognition ceases, there is no one to report what that is like because you are back into primal chaos. Yuan chi is not something that exists separate fromyin and yang chi – they are an inseparable TRINITY. Call it Three in One, but it s not a pure One.
Certainly that triune stream of the life force is at the core of everyone, as it is feeding into all levels of manifestation, internal and outer. This is what feeds the authenic self, ziran, the self-arising nature of the tao in humans and its virtue within everyone and everything. I suspect you are really trying to get people to focus on ziran.
But yin yang and five phases is how we physical beings build a conscious bridge to relate to the primordial. That is the power of human free will (yi) and love (ren). That is how the authentic self grows – by expessing itself and learning from consequences of that expression in this narrow band of existence we call physicality.
Hope we are getting closer to understanding eachoather.
I also suggest you read two highly respected Taoist scholars Roger Ames and David Hall – their Dao De Jing: A Philosophical Interpretation: Making this Life Significant” is the best elucidation I’ve found on many terms inthe Tao Te Ching. They also highlight the processual nature of the Tao and the uniqueness of each moment and what we as humans brings to it – rather than simply passively allowing the Tao to bring everything to us.
michael
http://www.healingdao.com/cgi-bin/articles.pl?rm=mode2&articleid=6
MW
This is not really a discussion about self-realization. You cannot answer the question what self means to you, it is irreelevant to your fundamental position. It is about our focusing attention on what the Taoists call wuming, the Nameless.
The TaoTe Ching mentions wu ming, but it also mentions the YouMing, the Named, which is also described s the Mother of all things. Its process is well described in verse 42, the foundation verse for al lTao cosmology: Tao gives birth to the One, One gives birth to Two, Two to Three, the Three give birth to the 10,000 Things, This is how Beings arise. We are those beings, which then “return” our fundamental trinitarian Origin to live more harmoniously in their daily life. To claim Tao is only about the Nameless, beyond mind, beggars the questions as to why Lao Tzu wrote 5000 characters or “names” to give insight into the Tao. It is up to the indivdiual to focus on any level of the process – but certainly the mind cannot experience the One without losing the three (left brain, right brain, core self-perception, or whatever trinity one wants to use to define mind function).
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He also says “Know the offpring and stay with the Mother”, he is clearly showing the way to live in this world, live from your true nature in the changing nature of phsycal world, its the way to enjoy life.He writes 81 chapters to explain the many ways a person gets trapped into chasing the offspring and associating with it.
MW
Dropping ordinary thoughts/mind does NOT mean the deeper “mind” of the Energy Body ceases functioning. The Energy Body could really be viewed as the “functional mind” of our personal Soul. And it is needed to maintain harmony and balance in physical plane. Without it, self/ ling stops existing, will is not expressed through the avenues of the five shen/xin/ordinary mind.
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This is where we seem to never find an agreement, by living from your true nature all the body’s and mind’s processes still funciton, but your relationship to them changes, you do not view the coming and going of thoughts, dreams, ideas are your identity, your true self.MW
Oneness is a state in which no distinctions can be made, iwhich is why it is also called Chaos or hundun. That seems to be what yo uare referring to – return to the nameless primordial state, nothing else is real or is being perceived by mind.
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Oneness in my usuage is a word to reflect a state where you experience life as it is, no more, no less, in its dynamic and chaning nature, in a spontaneuous way.MW
My point is that it is impossible to “regress” to the primordial state of oneness – all that can be accomplished from here is to “RETURN” THE PRIMAL AWARENESS TO THE POST-NATAL STATE. That is the major theme of the Lao Tzu, that is what the “Superior Man” does. That is bringing in greater influence of the yuan jing, chi, and shen into this physical plane present moment. I think we really agree on that.
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There is no regression, no progression, only the NOW. From the perspective of Now, there only is your true nature, not good nature, not bad nature, but your true nature.MW
The question remains, what is the value of the yin-yang and five phase cycles that the Taoists have so diligently mapped out, both in inner alchemy and medicine and many other worldly applications?
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They are ways to explain how certain dimensions function, they are ways to explain how the offspring of nature interact, thats all. Enjoy them.Smiling in the Tao,
bagua
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