April 8, 2006 at 6:28 pm #12572
I was reading your Empty Vessel Internal Alchemy Interview again, and I found that you say “If you receive the transmission of this formula, other formulas often unfold spontaneously”, referring to the Lesser Kan and Li formula. Do you mean that if you practice inner sexual alchemy formula long enough, you will get to a level where you know the other formulas? How is this possible? I thought knowledge is required, so how does one obtain such knowledge?
And what about the 6th and 7th formulas. Do they spontaneously reveal themselves when you get to a certain level?
FajinApril 8, 2006 at 8:50 pm #12573
I am not answering your question but just want to stress the importance of transmission. When one learns the alchemy formulas from someone who has successfully forged that pathway, your energy body resonates with them and learns much more quickly than from a tape or from reading a book.April 8, 2006 at 9:17 pm #12575
Good point Singing Ocean. In the Tibetan tradition, we dedicate ourselves to the Gurus teachings and we recite a lineage prayer. We have a special connection with Milarepa, Naropa, etc. and Guru just as in Daoist alchemy, the immortals and the teacher.April 8, 2006 at 11:51 pm #12577
These formulas are just guides, the experiences ar not limited to the linear progression, anybody can realize them at any stage if they are ripe. What about the Taoists who lived before these specific 7 formulas were created/refined, did they acheive the same immortal body as White Cloud, if he did?
What about Huang Di, did he become an immortal without these seven formulas?
What about Ge Hong, did he do it with the Pao Pu Zi, and acupuncture and herbs?
baguaApril 9, 2006 at 12:10 am #12579
Bagua and Max,
Thanks for the advice, but that’s not the answer I am specifically looking for. I hope Michael will be able to clear it up for me.
Metta to you both,
FajinApril 9, 2006 at 4:05 pm #12581
This is not a black and white answer, as in my experience as a teacher in observing what unfolds spontaneously and how quickly and deeply it unfolds depends on each individual – who they are, their preparation and openness to the process, the timing and space they are in, and clarity of intention. The more those are in alignment, the easier it is for spontaneous ignition of the alchemical process to occur. My comment in Empty Vessel meant to indicate that the primary patterns are in place once you’ve activated the Lesser Kan & Li/ inner sexual coupling and reversal of post-natal patterns.
Bagua is correct – the formulas themselves don’t do anything, it is the adept who unfolds everything. The formulas are a guiderail, a reminder of what has already been learned, so you don’t have to reinvent the wheel completely, even though you do have to make each formula/method your own, and that will be unique to you, your time cycle, and your body/public space.
But some people seem naturally ready. I was working privately on a student whose energy I felt was as heavy as a bowling ball, and didn’t have high hopes for rapid progress, although he seemed enthusiastic. He had just taken a fundamentals workshop with me, and came for additional help to move his blockages. The guy was so toxic that he literally reeked – I could barely stand his smell.
During the session (done on table, with him lying) I saw certain volatile forces arising in him and asked if he would focus on them in a particular way that I thought (without telling him) might speed up his process. Well, the process took off in him, without me doing anything, and began to unfold as a classic textbook case of his inner male and female suddenly uniting and birthing a child and unfolding a series of profound revelations that went on for an hour. There was an incredibly high chi field suddenly being emitted from the core of what was a dense bowling ball a few minutes earlier. At the end of the session he smelled like a rose. I felt he had done 95% of the work spontaneously.
So both Max and Bagua are correct – all “experience of one’s deeper truth” is in a potential state waiting to unfold. What state famous meditators in the past have achieved is beyond my knowledge, and hard to use those claims to prove anything about what works and what doesn’t, how much was practice and how much was spontaneous self-realization. But I do draw a distinction between enlightenment and immortality states, which are all in a continuum, but depend on the degree of integration after physical death/rebirth. And this makes me skeptical of some claims that might confuse the two.
This “potential state” inside everyone is not to be confused with some “pre-determined state of immortality”, as that would kill any possibility of spontaneous unfoldment of Tao. So its not a given or “pre-existing” as bagua claims – I believe it requires intention or desire to cultivate an entirely new state of manifesting that potential in this present moment.
Furthermore, that human intention will be challenged or tested by powerful forces at play between Heaven and Earth and human ancestors. So I have seen many people begin to spontaneously unfold the alchemical process, and then it stalls, the level of forces are not balanced enough in their life to spontaneously permit deeper progress.
Then you need technique/method to get past the resistance or imbalance, like a motor sputtering because their is poor fuel intake. You clean the pathways, re-focus the intention, and the motor starts to purr again.
The forces will spontaneously combust if allowed to – but in most people, there are strong forces blocking the ignition. And you need to build a strong vessel to hold the combustion process, or it automatically short circuits itself to protect your frail ego from being overloaded by higher forces.
Hope this clarifies my statement in Empty Vessel.
To spontaneous combustion in the cyberspace of this forum,
michaelApril 9, 2006 at 6:31 pm #12583April 9, 2006 at 6:38 pm #12585
Very well said.
I would only add that buddhists teachers and their community, both when in group meditation and as a social group do provide the guidance and support to move through blockages and stagnations too.
Maybe you can present a clear explanation of what you mean by immortality and how it is different than what the Buddha or Jesus acheived.
Thank you on this wonderful day as we all play with the freedom we are endowed with.
BaguaApril 9, 2006 at 7:04 pm #12587April 11, 2006 at 2:44 am #12589
This is a convenient description that uses only buddhist terms: from what you say, we are to believe that only the buddha attained immortality, and the heavenly immortals only attained enlightenment?
I believe it was Jeffrey Yuen of the Daoist Polestar Temple who said that there are 36 heavens, with only the mid and lower realms occupied by buddhist cultivators.
Here is an explanation that I have picked up:
Enlightenment is about aligning your shen with the neutral space, while immortality is about integrating your jing, qi and shen with the neutral force, about actively crystallizing the yuan jing with your body-mind in a permanent state of process.April 11, 2006 at 12:14 pm #12591
I would be cautious about taking numbers literally in taoist literture, for instance, du 20, bai hui is called meeting of a hundred points, they dont mean 100, they mean alot.
Jeffrey has a “Shen Gong” audio tape, nine (has 81 in total) movements and standing postures he sells, from that tape and what he says, and he calls what he taught “Alchemy”, is clearly empty kind of alchemy, no formulas like white cloud.
As you probally know, he has a few lineages, but seems to be heavily influenced by complete reality school, which buddhist view is a big part and he seems to beleive in reincarnation, clearly a buddhist, not taoist concept. His idea of 3-hun and 7-po is different than most presentations.
enjoy your weekend,
baguaApril 11, 2006 at 12:26 pm #12593
Hi Singing Ocean:
SO: Enlightenment is about aligning your shen with the neutral space, while immortality is about integrating your jing, qi and shen with the neutral force, about actively crystallizing the yuan jing with your body-mind in a permanent state of process.
This concept is a key in understanding the application of tao immortality, its seeing what this really means and Hope this area is isolated and discussed as a separate topic, and hopefully we can get past the terminology and focus on the actual acheivement, accomplishment or whatever term describes it.
baguaApril 12, 2006 at 3:18 am #12595
As long as we are clearly taking biased points of view here, I have to point out the absurdity of this statement:
“The guy who gave the description is not Buddhist- just because he didn’t use a fancy taoist jargon doesn’t make him Buddhist either.”(M)
Dude, could you explain to me what “annutarasamyaksambodhi” means? Isn’t this a buddhist term, or is it a hindu spiritual term? How do you attain it (saying one would want to)? Is it similar to primordial heaven or is it closer to the Wu Ji? Can you make any comparisons with it to the three heavens in Daoist cosmology?April 12, 2006 at 11:57 am #12597
GO MAX GO
baguaApril 12, 2006 at 1:07 pm #12599
All i can tell you his people sell his vidoe tape on qi gong, called Alchemical qi gong, three tapes, many hourse of his shen gong, he talk about his approach to alchemy. His presentation is clearly on the empty side of alchemy.
He rejects new patients too, so there may be no big deal about taking formal students, except workshop format.
i have done lots of marrow washing research and there are so many variations, its almost impossible to know what one is referring to when they say that, most having nothing to do with what Chia or Dr. Yang, Jwing-ming do.
If he teaches alchemy, like we pratice, it is probally a new thing he is doing, i know some who study with him 20-years ago, he may have continued learning.
what city is his workshop?
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