October 9, 2009 at 8:44 pm #32312
posting this here, as I don’t want to contribute
to posts scrolling even further to the right in
the discussion below . . .
>>>From: singing ocean
>>>Date/Time 2009-10-08 00:36:10
>>>Remote IP: 220.127.116.11
>>>The point is not that we are
>>>”on an island isolated from influence”,
>>>but that we must choose between free will
>>>and submitting to absolute authority.
“choose between free will and submitting to
absolute authority” ?? WRONG. This is a
false dichotomy. You’re thinking that you
only have options A and B, and since B is
not right, you must have option A. But
guess what, you missed option C.
The point you are missing is that the
“person” that is generating the script
that you are following, which *appears*
to be complete free will from the lower
self perspective, is YOU. This isn’t
submission to an absolute authority
in the sense of an external agent like
the statement “absolute authority” implies.
You are submitting to “YOU”, a higher version
of you that is guiding the lower version of you.
Suppose you have a cocaine addiction. The
“smarter” version of you realizes that you need
to get clean and convinces the “reactional you”
to checking into a rehab center. Then, several
hours after checking in you start going through
withdrawal and start craving cocaine like
nobody’s business. The “reactional you” wants nothing
more than to leave–so that you can go get some cocaine
and get high. But you can’t. You are following
a script set in place by the “more intelligent”
you. You are “forced” to go through the withdrawal
and get clean by the treatment center “whether you
want to or not”. The “smarter version of you” planned
this experience for your best interest, and didn’t
really care/understand just how damn difficult
and hard the experience would be. It just knew it
would be good for you, and that you would come out OK.
This is basically what is going on regarding life.
>>>The info mainly came up in MW’s alchemy lectures,
>>>and through the Atlantean source.
You know, I’ve taken a lot of his courses also.
I don’t know that anything he has said, outright
contradicts my viewpoint. In other words, it’s
a viewpoint entirely consistent with things he has
said. I think it is possible to have *many* different
points of view and not be in disagreement with MW,
and I’m betting that’s something he’d agree with 🙂
>>>The point in being here is to fill in a
>>>particular gap in the whole’s experience
>>>that expresses itself through us as a yearning…
>>>this process is complicated because of all the issues
>>>that arise in the material plane,
I completely agree.
>>>and is not guaranteed to be completed which
>>>would be the case if everything was scripted for us.
This is an extrapolation and speculation I don’t agree with.
Especially when the script is created by “YOU” to begin with,
as in my analogy. It is a form of free will, just not the
one you are thinking of. This is different than a script
by an outside entity separate from you.
>>>The idea that “material things ultimately don’t matter”
>>>is better understood . . . [rest omitted; continued below]
I never said that material things don’t matter.
They matter a good deal.
You are making the mistake of misunderstanding my treadmill
analogy that I mentioned earlier. Just because the
treadmill is “scripting your action”, does not mean that
it is waste of time in getting on the thing. The
PROCESS of doing it, is the important thing.
>>>in the sense that once we leave the
>>>material plane, we continue on energetically, but the catch
>>>is that whatever we cultivate in the material is what we take
>>>with us in the energetic.
I don’t believe that I said otherwise.
>>>”In certain esoteric schools this is known
>>>as the principle of “Ring Pass Not”: once consciousness
>>>has been created within a certain form, it has the right
>>>to continue existing. You’ve passed from the core inner
>>>ring of the Primordial into the outer ring of manifestation.
>>>The Whole cannot take away the right of that individual
>>>to continue existing and re-birthing itself
>>>if so designed.” – Michael Winn
I don’t believe I said anything about a higher being trying
to deny the existence of our being, nor did I say anything
about the Whole taking away rights of any kind.
Why not let your arguments stand on their own merits,
rather than misapplying tangential quotes by MW ? 🙂
I’m still waiting on your answer to my question . . . 🙂
Smiles to you,
StevenOctober 9, 2009 at 8:55 pm #32313
What was your question?October 9, 2009 at 9:16 pm #32315
In most people, their functional “awareness” is based in the material plane with unconscious impulses coming from their post-natal shen. True that there is a larger part of the material self that functions unconsciously (in most people) in the pre-natal which is sending in impulses that want to be completed…I think you misunderstood me when I said that there is no scripting of our lives from the formless planes.
I do think though that these impulses are not “making” the decisions…most people function primarily in the post-natal. Thus our “free will” appears to originate in the post natal, in the functional consciousness. Most people do not function with full awareness of the pre-natal. So even though we are recieving these pre-natal impulses that influence our direction, they are presenting potentials that we choose to manifest, pathways that we can choose to follow, and not giving us an answer or a definite outcome. I don’t think that they are “choosing the outcome for us”. Is that clearly explained?
We are influenced all the time by the countless streams of the lifeforce that we co-exist with, also including fear and doubt, being constantly made to feel inadequate or separated from the whole, or as if our decisions are not the right ones.
I do also think that my quoting of MW’s discussion was not at all tangential, and is part of a larger question that is crucial to the idea of humans choosing a free will existence or submitting to an absolute authority, a belief that our life is chosen for us, which is in essence giving up of free will. You are free to believe whatever you want.
Free will is based on the idea of cooperation, so it is good that we can both freely express our views.October 9, 2009 at 9:30 pm #32317
Oh, this is so much fun following along.
baguaOctober 9, 2009 at 11:03 pm #32319
OK, now I *am* starting to feel like we are in that
argument video you posted, LOL.
It’s not just a pre-natal influencing the post-natal situation.
Pre-natal dictates what you came here with, the parameters
of your manifestation. You can grow beyond these parameters
by speeding up your storyline through alchemy.
What I’m discussing is completely different,
and more core than that. I’m not talking about having
impulses that you brought in with you; I’m talking about
following an overall plan created for your benefit by
a higher version of you, and all free will actions that
you think you are making are just the things the higher
version of you already knew you were going to do.
I’m going to be as direct as possible:
The lower-you, the you that you identify with, is just
the physical projection into linear time of the higher-you
that has already *by free will* made certain decisions,
which you are now carrying out faithfully. The only
difference in the now, is the extra depth of understanding
from the physical experience (refer to my prior tennis
analogy), and the possibility of speeding up the storyline
if the lower-you chooses to do so. That’s it. It’s really
that simple. Now it’s just a matter of enjoying the
drama as it unfolds. The experience enriches the immortal
higher-you, and simultaneously helps the mortal lower-you
grow up and join its older brother.
Rainbowbear said it best:
“Desire, goals, ….. we think we have choice. Think back.
What really could you have done different considering your emotional state,
physical state and state of what was surrounding you.
Do you think you really had a choice.”
>>>[some omitted] . . . and is part of a larger question
>>>that is crucial to the idea of humans choosing a
>>>free will existence or submitting to an absolute authority.
No, this is the same “option A vs. B” mistake you made earlier.
Not-B does not equal A.
There are not just two options.
It’s like if you try to understand light:
Is light a particle or a wave?
Sure it has certain qualities that make it look like a particle.
But is it a particle? No. It only appears to be a particle.
It is actually not a particle.
Sure it has certain qualities that make it look like a wave.
But is it a wave? No. It only appears to be a wave.
It is actually not a wave.
It is light. It’s its own thing. Nothing more; nothing less.
In the same way, what appears to be free will is not . . .
Why don’t you think about it?
And why don’t you answer my question about why this idea
bothers you so much?
I mean, its not as if an external agent to you is making the
script–you are (the higher-you). It’s like rubbing your
eye with your hand, and then having the hand get upset about it.
SOctober 9, 2009 at 11:13 pm #32321October 10, 2009 at 2:44 am #32323
Of course it isOctober 10, 2009 at 2:44 am #32325
How else could it be?October 10, 2009 at 6:33 am #32327
I am not bothered by the idea that there is no individual free will, I just dont agree with it. I think that the reason we are manifested here is to explore individual free will and how our collective self can learn from our interactions in an unplanned way.
a. If our (individual) life process is pre-planned by our collective self, then it would not be a process.
b. If our life process is being run spontaneously by the collective self and the individual self is learning from it, it is a one-way process, the individual is acting out orders and the collective is not learning anything in return.
Individual free will (in my opinion) is a combination of collective self-awareness (that comes from the collective/ the One), and individuality (the qualities of the five shen) there is a gap in vibrational frequency between the collective and the individual that allows us to function with an individual will, and which gives us the impression of (separated) conscious awareness here. Of course, the minute you start going into the shen, elementals, soul forces, oversouls and causal chaos-unity, you see that we are a collective. Most people remain unaware of the collective consciousness because of its more impersonal nature.
True that most people are unconsciously reacting to collective forces, which makes life seem controlled from the outside instead of interacting with these forces.
My earlier message that “the *individual* cannot be interfered with by larger forces” was not explained well so I will re-explain:
1. A human’s consciousness has its “assemblage point” in the post-natal, which gives the impression of individuality, but is connected through progressively more collective channels to the One.
2. The collective channels influence the human’s “individual” self, but the human is unconscious of it, which gives the impression that life is controlled, pre-destined, and that there is no choice in the outcome of events.
3. By cultivating a connection to the collective, the “individual” becomes more self-aware of its collective nature, and is able to express its will more effectively, to communicate more clearly with the collective its “individual” expression of will.
4. Collective forces are always bouncing off the human, whether unconscious or aware. By cultivating its collective nature, the human is more aware of those forces that it is composed of and are bouncing against it, and has a higher level of choice and ways to communicate that response. The “individual will” becomes fused with the “collective will”, and creates an “individual-collective will” with more access than either of the previous.
5. By virtue of the human’s “individual” self having been birthed in the material plane, it is naturally connected through a unique configuration of certain elementals, soul forces and oversoul to the one. When OTHER combinations of forces bounce against it, they cannot take away individuals connection, or right to exist in the material plane except through murder, war etc., but even then the individual’s energetic extension is still there (but which may dissolve without the material form to root its configuration).October 10, 2009 at 1:11 pm #32329
>>>I am not bothered by the idea that there
>>>is no individual free will, I just dont
>>>agree with it. I think that the reason we
>>>are manifested here is to explore individual
>>>free will and how our collective self can
>>>learn from our interactions in an unplanned way.
I think you are still stuck in a false dichotomy.
Your logic goes like this. If option A were not true,
then we’d have option B which I don’t agree with and is
ultimately inherently wrong, so therefore of course
option A is true. This is false logic. If option B
is not true, this does not imply A if other options exist.
>>>If our (individual) life process is pre-planned
>>>by our collective self, then it would not be a process.
For one, I don’t like the term “collective self”, because
this implies that the larger self I’ve been discussing is
just a cute way of saying “collective”. This is not the case.
The “larger-you” I’m referring to is still mostly individualized.
For two, the idea that something pre-planned is not
able to be processual, is likewise false. A running treadmill
pre-plans your walking, but nonetheless if you get on the thing
you are going through the process of exercise. Moreover, the
process of being on the thing changes you. By “you” I
mean both the lower-you, who is directly being altered in the
physical realm, AND the larger-you that gets the
transmission of the physical experience.
>>>If our life process is being run spontaneously
>>>by the collective self and the individual self
>>>is learning from it, it is a one-way process,
>>>the individual is acting out orders and the
>>>collective is not learning anything in return.
False. The larger-you gets a direct transmission of
the actual physical experience of the theoretical
knowledge it has. This deepens and enriches the
“current” understanding that the larger-you has.
I thought I said this earlier.
>>>Individual free will (in my opinion) is a combination
>>>of collective self-awareness (that comes from
>>>the collective/ the One), and individuality
>>>(the qualities of the five shen)
Now I see why you are confused and why your mind
is giving you a false dichotomy. It appears to me
that you have completely accepted as fact
Peter Novak’s Binary Soul Doctrine,
and are trying to apply it across the board.
The lower self may *indeed* be a binary soul model
as presented by Novak consisting of two components:
a self-aware half, and a personal/dreaming half
[speaking fast and loose; I’m familiar with the model,
but I don’t want to go on for two pages in order to
In fact, I personally agree with a version
of it FOR THE LOWER PHYSICAL SELF when it is run
through a Daoist lens.
HOWEVER, *regardless* of what constitutes the
lower physical self, this does not describe the constitution
of the higher larger version of self that I’m referring to.
I’m speaking of something on a different vibrational level.
It is *not* just a mirror image of the “self-aware,
personality-less half” in the binary soul doctrine.
The larger self that is organizing the script has
a muted personality and some kind of subtle unified shen
In other words, feel free to apply the binary soul
doctrine to the lower-you, but not to the larger-you.
The larger-you is a completely different animal.
Even if you weren’t applying the binary soul doctrine
globally, I’m betting it is the source of your binary
thinking, or at least why you seem to only acknowledge
two choices. Even in yin-yang theory, there is a
central “third” yuan core that lies between the two extremes.
>>>there is a gap in vibrational frequency between the
>>>collective and the individual that allows us to
>>>function with an individual will, and which gives
>>>us the impression of (separated) conscious awareness
>>>here. Of course, the minute you start going into the
>>>shen, elementals, soul forces, oversouls and causal
>>>chaos-unity, you see that we are a collective.
>>>Most people remain unaware of the collective
>>>consciousness because of its more impersonal nature.
So you admit that independence is just an illusion?
Then you are halfway to seeing what I’m talking about.
WITH BLINDERS UP, *of course* everything we are doing down
here is free will. We are making choices after all.
BUT DROPPING THE BLINDERS OF CONFUSION, we see that the
choices we A PRIORI considered to be free independent
choices were in fact already chosen *for* “us” (i.e.
the lower self) by the larger-self. The larger-self
is STILL you (hence it is free will on a different level),
BUT is NOT operating in linear time.
Operating outside of linear time,
the larger-you has already made the choices
(the choices being the “free will”, but on the larger-you level).
Then the choices that we appear to be making are simply
the ones already pre-written (by “ourselves”).
In other words, you’ve already made the choice.
Now you just have to understand the choice you already made.
Do not make the mistake of assuming that when you go
up the vibrational ladder that things that exist there
still are subject to the same linear time flow that we have here.
In the “now”, our higher-you has extent into both our
past and our future. That’s how it knows what you are
going to do, before you do it. But this is no
surprise as the lower-you is just the physical projection
of higher-you into linear time. And I mean the most
literal version of the word “projection” here.
StevenOctober 10, 2009 at 6:55 pm #32331
you shouild examine your own dichotomies before placing them on me. I can see that we are talking about things that have gradations of similarity.
I have read Novak’s book but have long since stopped trying to apply it exactly to the Daoist model. The self awareness of the One is expressed through the heart shen, but all the shen have self-awareness, the legacy of the stellar mind that was seeded into animal form.
I also had no intention of applying linear time to the collective self – where did that come from in your thinking? The ever-present aspects of our collective consciousness cannot see clearly into the material plane… the ling is much closer to the material and would be cyclical rather than ever-present.
Here is what I think is the main difference in our thinking: I think you are talking about the LING, the unified personal shen that are just over the vibrational gap into the pre-natal. While I am talking about the larger COLLECTIVE IMPERSONAL forces of nature, the pure virtue elementals, planetary soul archetypes and the oversouls of the stellar mind…they CANNOT SEE into the slower vibration of the material plane, which is why we function here with the IMPRESSION of separation (I am aware that it is not full separation – nothing is fully separated).
The LING (unified personal shen) responds to situations, and also influences situations that ocur in the physical plane – i.e. it draws situations to us based on our energetic shape, and helps guide us through it. I am still of the opinion that these learning events, even though they are multi-dimensional, are still happening spontaneously, and do not have pre-planned outcomes (although the LING has a big say in what happens), because of the need for learning from the interactions. If the ever-present consciousness of our collective (non-personal) self is running the show, and knows what will happen at all times then what is the point of having a learning experience?
If all the motions are pre-planned but we are just running through them in physicality so that the LING (or the higher collective self for that matter)can experience it, the “newness” of only the physical is not enough, it is a dead interaction without the combination of spontaneous learning through the whole spectrum.
On earth as it is in heaven – the higher unifed shen and collective self need spontaneous experience of the linear just like we need experience of the ever-present, otherwise there would be no point in the human experiment – they would know everything already.October 10, 2009 at 6:57 pm #32333October 10, 2009 at 9:55 pm #32335
Glad to hear you are enjoying meditation again. Its a good idea to try different things out and see what works for you. I would not think that doing the orbit would “confuse the body”. I think that when you focus on the channels, the cultivation happens faster than just focusing on the mind. You might also try smiling to your vital organs and see how they respond.
enjoy the long weekend,
from vancouverOctober 10, 2009 at 11:09 pm #32337
>>>you shouild examine your own dichotomies
>>>before placing them on me.
By the rules of simple mathematical logic,
if you construct an argument consisting of
propositions containing implications
such “if . . ., then . . .”; or absolute
statements such as “can not” etc.,
then such implications by necessity fall
under the rules of true/false logic.
Argue with me on tenets of spirituality
and we can have a fun debate. Argue
with me about mathematics and you will lose. 🙂
>>>I have read Novak’s book but have long since
>>>stopped trying to apply it exactly to the Daoist model.
Good. As you yourself pointed out, there are some
useful concepts, but they don’t translate A for B
into the Daoist picture.
>>>I also had no intention of applying linear time
>>>to the collective self – where did that come from
>>>in your thinking?
But you do it all the time!
“The LING (unified personal shen) responds to situations,
and also influences situations that ocur”
This implies a linear structure of time. Situation happens,
then LING responds. Or LING does something, then situation
here is influenced. This is a cause-effect structure.
This; then that. Linear.
“are still happening spontaneously”
This implies not happening in the past or future,
but only in the now. This is a fixed referent to a moment
in our linear time. “Spontaneous” has no intrinsic meaning
outside of linear time.
>>>I think you are talking about the LING, the unified
>>>personal shen that are just over the vibrational gap
>>>into the pre-natal.
No, I’m not talking about the pre-natal.
I discussed this earlier.
But rather than continuously correcting every instance
of this in what you wrote afterward, I’ll just pretend
it has already been corrected for efficiency.
>>>While I am talking about the larger COLLECTIVE IMPERSONAL
>>>forces of nature, the pure virtue elementals, planetary soul
>>>archetypes and the oversouls of the stellar mind…they
>>>CANNOT SEE into the slower vibration of the material plane,
>>>which is why we function here with the IMPRESSION of
>>>separation (I am aware that it is not full separation –
>>>nothing is fully separated).
I agree with this analysis.
Of course, the collective impersonal forces are
not what I’m talking about, as you yourself realized.
>>>I am still of the opinion that these learning events,
>>>even though they are multi-dimensional, are still
>>>happening spontaneously, and do not have pre-planned
>>>outcomes (although the LING has a big say in what happens),
>>>because of the need for learning from the interactions.
>>>If the ever-present consciousness of our collective (
>>>non-personal) self is running the show, and knows what
>>>will happen at all times then what is the point of having
>>>a learning experience?
Because the actual physical participation provides insight
that the mere theoretical understanding can not provide. This
is in the tennis analogy I gave earlier. I can have a
complete theoretical understanding of the game, but if I
actually get on the court and play I’ll understand it in
a newer and a deeper way. THIS REMAINS TRUE regardless of
whether or not I happen to be psychic/omniscient and
happen to know the games’ outcome. Knowing the games’
outcome and what actually transpires during the game
does not diminish the experience of playing.
You seem to be arguing that if you already know how the
game goes, then there is no value in playing. I.E. Try
telling that to the millions of people playing Sudoku that
they are stupid because you know the end result is
a full tableau of nine digits that is already given
in the back of the book. It is the process of doing it
that is the important thing. For one, it is simple pleasure
and fun; for two, it provides growth in the sense of
The fact that the outcome is pre-planned is IRRELEVANT.
>>>If all the motions are pre-planned but we are just
>>>running through them in physicality so that the LING
>>>(or the higher collective self for that matter)can
>>>experience it, the “newness” of only the physical
>>>is not enough, it is a dead interaction without the
>>>combination of spontaneous learning through the
This is purely your opinion of course.
I don’t see it as being dead in any way,
as I’ve explained before. Aside from everything I’ve
written above as in the tennis and the Sudoku examples,
the lower self does not know that its “choices”
fall matter-of-factly in lock-step with the script
already written–and even if it did, it does not
change the experience. YOU already made the choices,
now it is just a matter of the lower self understanding
them and experiencing them first-hand.
I state again: The lower self is just the physical
projection into linear time of the larger self.
OK, I just had an “a-ha” moment. I think
I have an analogy that will explain the situation better.
Suppose you go back in time and meet up with an
earlier version of yourself. Keeping your identity
secret via some kind of disguise you go up to
this earlier version of yourself. You tell this
earlier version of yourself that you know exactly
what it is going to do and what choices it will
make. This version of you says “really? did you
know I was going to do this?”, and then
your “earlier you” jumps up and down on the floor
ten times. To which–you in disguise–reply
“of course I did; you are me, and I know
I did that/you were going to do that” To which
the earlier version of you–to prove it has
free will–tries to do different random spontaneous
actions to demonstrate that it makes it own choices.
You (in disguise), start laughing, and point
out that you knew it would do that, and point out a
diary record in which you had recorded these
activities with stunning accuracy. Now suppose you
leave this earlier point in time. Should the
earlier version of you–assuming it was convinced
you were the real deal–just give up nihilistically
and decide to not do anything at all? Of course, not.
But supposing the earlier you had decided to give up,
then in the same way that would have likewise been
recorded in the diary as well.
The larger self/smaller self dynamic is like this.
In fact, the analogy may not be too far from the truth
because the larger self is not in linear time. So
what constitutes “now” for the lower self, is
for the larger self considered “already done”,
“doing”, and “yet to be done” all in the same “instant”.
But as I said, this fact should not matter to the
lower self, because it can’t see beyond the now and
everything it experiences seems to be completely
original and originating from itself. The underlying
truth is really irrelevant from its viewpoint.
This is what I mean by the choices having already been
made, and all that is left to do is to understand them
and grow from them.
The “growing” is obvious for the lower self, as it
experiences things “new” in an ever-developing sense.
The “growing” for the larger self is the transmission
it is receiving/already received/will yet to receive
from the physical experience–which extends and deepens
the theoretical knowledge it already has.
SOctober 10, 2009 at 11:46 pm #32339
I wasn’t sure to respond since it was directed at Chris,
but since he has responded already . . .
Most of your comments stand on their own and need no further
commentary. I can see and feel a lot of personal pain that
you have gone through, as well as current strength. My best
to you on that end.
I just wanted to make a comment about your meditation question:
>>>There is one thing I am working on now.
>>>The meditation I am doing now is Buddhist based
>>>but open to all, you do not have to be Buddhist.
>>>But it is suggested not to incorporate other forms
>>>of meditation such as the microcosmic orbit so as
>>>not to confuse the body. I don’t like that so much
>>>because I truly do not understand why.
Yeah, I think is important to try different things, and
see what feels right to you–rather than limiting yourself
to particular dogma. So kudos to your exploration.
I can see at least two reasons why they suggest to not
incorporate other forms of meditation.
One reason of course is because they want “faithful
followers” that completely buy into their doctrine,
and this is a subtle way of cultivating that.
The other reason is a little more reasonable:
I don’t know what form of Buddhist meditation you are
doing, but at least in the Zen tradition, the “fifth
finger of Zen” is called “no reading; direct experience”.
Thus when Zen practitioners learn Zen meditation, they
are asked to not read anything about Buddhism and to
not dabble too much in extraneous things that aren’t
the explicit practices being taught. The reason here
is that they want you to learn first-hand what
the practices do for you. The thinking is that if you
read about Buddhism or you do other practices, then
you can’t necessary be sure if the results and
discoveries you are making are indeed due to
the practices themselves or if they are the result
of the side-dabbling.
Now the meditation you are learning might be from
a different tradition, but at least in my case,
I’ve taken a series of courses in Zen meditation,
and I initially followed the same request–and did
so willingly to observe the results due solely from
However, once the sequence of courses had finished, and
once I felt I satisfactorily understood how to do the
meditation, and once I saw the results due solely to
that form of meditation, I abandoned that request.
Since that time, I have appropriated that meditation for
my own use as an adjunct to the alchemical meditations and
forms of qigong taught in the Healing Tao. I do not
find that incorporating it confuses the body. In fact,
I find quite the opposite. Instead, what
I find is that it helps the alchemical meditations to
work faster and more efficiently. The “empty-mind” Zen
meditation acts as a nice yin practice providing some
downtime during which the transformations and
downloads from the Healing Tao work can process faster,
uninhibited from the resistance from the brain.
Even if the meditation you are learning involves moving
energy around, after you have learned the meditation
I see no reason to restrict yourself away from other
practices. The body should be able to adapt.
In particular, just in the Healing Tao courses themselves,
we oftentimes practices several different types of
meditation and we think nothing of it. Of course
on your own you can go deeper and explore one particular
type of meditation more extensively, but again its your
Have fun in your discoveries,
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