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Hi SO:
First, if we are going to discuss this we need to agree on what are historical texts, try paul unschuld, histroy of Chinese Medicine, there are no Shang items to prove your arguement. It is common knowledge that five phase and yin-yang evolved as a school in the late Zhou Dynasty.
If you read Ma Wang Dui texts, there is no acupuncture, only moxa, so they claim acupuncture is 5,000 years old, no documents for it.
Yu the great, this is all myth, yellow empreror, shen nong, fu xi, all myth, no prove, none, all scholars agree with this.
In story, King Yu was royalty, he was the emperor and ruled the earth!!!!!
Its rigid in the step by step details, do this, do that, others dont have such detail. Trust me on one thing, the presentation changes as the teacher changes, the more they learn, which never changes, the more they try to be clearer, more efficient and direct. Chia does this too, but he is critiscized for changing the formula, but others are not. Silly all these stuff.
I dont blindly believe prehistoric people have this detailed knowledge, I think people may be very suprised when the Tai Ji symbol was uses and the Yin-Yang symbols were used, people exagerate so much. Just because foru direction were known in ancient time, does not mean five phases were, people just wing so much.
“On another topic, do you know if Fu Wei Zhong’s Wujigong system is the same as that of Zhu Hui?” I dont know, but I have seen a bunch of things called “Wu Ji” Qi Gong. I like Fu’s, I also learned a variation, michael uses it too, it is nothing like primordial, even though same name.
Nice chatting,
bagua
What are your sources on Shang history? How do you know the natural schools, the five phases or yin-yang did not exist at the time? How do you know that more spiritual knowledge was not in the hands of shaman lineages such as those similar to King Yu, possibly outside the circles of royalty?
To give the impression they did not exist may be underestimating indigenous knowledge, and basing your view only on written history that may not be comprehensive enough to include all the historical aspects of cosmology and spirituality.
Most ancient knowledge was passed on orally to a select group of initiates in strict secrecy, as were the alchemy formulas through seclusion schools. You may see the HTU alchemy system as being rigid, but I think that may be your own projection, because it is constantly in flow and change. I asked michael about writing down the sequence of steps in the formulas, and he said it was not a good idea because there are many varying details that achieve the same result. I think that is why he presents so many versions in his workshops.
On another topic, do you know if Fu Wei Zhong’s Wujigong system is the same as that of Zhu Hui?
To a Buddhist with no sense of self and who is merged with the collective, there is no sense of free will and therefore no difference. To a Daoist, the reverse. So yes, there CAN be a difference between Self and Dao.
You may find it interesting to read some of the material by Graham Hancock, a british journalist who attempts to show the legacy of a vastly ancient civilization on ancient knowledge. One interesting fact that appears to surface is that many ancient cultures (over 600) have “myths” about a flood that devastated the earth, this is also included in the bible. How much did the ancients know? I think there is much more than modern scientists are prepared to admit. In fact there is loads of evidence that has simply been ignored.
I think there is much truth in ancient “myths”.
One interesting fact about chinese history is their calendar, which goes back supposedly to 2637 BCE. Has anyone found evidence yet that people just invented it at a much later date, and arbitrarily placed its origin at an ancient date to create the myth of Huang Di? There may be no written evidence that he existed at that date, but I don’t think there is any written evidence that he did NOT exist either. Choose what you want.
We could also discuss the sophistication of the Mayan calendar, that goes back tens and hundreds of thousands of years, were there cavemen randomly creating this stuff? or the peruvian stones at Ica which show people contemporary with ancient animals, or the underwater ruins at Yonaguni off the coast of Taiwan, which would date a sophisticated culture to at least 10,000 BCE. The mystery is there, and I think many people intuitively know it has some validity. We can wait for scientists to tell us it is true although they have vested interests in not doing so, or we can simply believe it and reap the benefits of ancient knowledge through their legacies that has been passed down to us now.
Some one in ancient chinese history was sophisticated enough to create the He Tu and Luo Shu, which people today are still having trouble interpreting.
I think Fajin has pointed out the difference between a cosmology (chan) that attempts to dissolve the self into the collective, and alchemical daoism, that encourages the development and fusion of the many into one, which can then return and integrate into the collective maintaining the free will and knowledge of the individual. Is that why you guys are trying to get us to buy into your viewpoint, because you cannot accept the development of us having our own free will?
Well it is an easy question.
And we all have free will, dont know why you make such a big deal of it.
gua
This thread title reminds me of Handel’s Messiah which is really a treatise on “Christic Esoterism” or western alchemy. There is a superb solo by the alto tht goes “For he is like a refiner’s fire. And who shall stand when he appeareth?”
has nothing to do with Jesus……per se……..
Convenient glossing over of previous discussions.
>>”And we all have free will, dont know why you make such a big deal of it.”
If we’re already perfect, than why bother to cultivate?
Bagua,
You keep repeating things over and over.
You are right, we are complete. But we don’t use what we have by looking at it. You have an ego-self for a reason. You have sexual energy for a reason. You have emotional energy for a reason. You have free will for a reason. Go ahead and observe it for what it is, nothing more, nothing less. But I like to take advantage of it.
Very interesting, you know I vaguely recall that line after doing the “sing-along Messiah” a few months ago here in Van, but it didn’t click. I would like to learn more about the alchemical symbolism in there. Handel was quite the sound-architect.
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