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I just wonder where a conversation might go if we changed the emphasis of religion to being a philosophy? Does anyone care to play?
It seems to me a number of discussions on this forum are flirting with creating some type of “fundamentalist taoism” (i.e. let’s talk about “REAL daoism”). Are we not now walking along the same dangerous precipice that many self professed enlightened thinkers have in ages past when they attempted to construct a “reality” to suit a “belief”?
Fight Club rules apply.
Emelgee
It seems to me a number of discussions on this forum are flirting with creating some type of “fundamentalist taoism” (i.e. let’s talk about “REAL daoism”).
-I’ve been looking at that one too. I view that tendency as the need to make oneself secure, and there is a big drawback to that. I think that act in itself is non-daoistic. But I can appreciate the need to clarify what one is doing in their life and practice by talking about what one “believes in.” The problem seems to come in when we get too needy of being right and also in needing to “do it right.”-
Are we not now walking along the same dangerous precipice that many self professed enlightened thinkers have in ages past when they attempted to construct a “reality” to suit a “belief”?
-Yes. But- we are all creating individual realities to suit our beliefs anyway and have to. Your house is a reflection of your beliefs. My house is a reflection of mine. The problem is not in constructing a reality, but in what kind you are constructing. When you make a space so small it feels like a box then you’ve gone too far with your yin impulse – the need to make a form to hold the essence – and gone into contraction.
Your point is well brought up. It brings attention to creating more balance in this area.--AA
aa – #Yes. But- we are all creating individual realities to suit our beliefs anyway and have to. Your house is a reflection of your beliefs. My house is a reflection of mine. The problem is not in constructing a reality, but in what kind you are constructing. When you make a space so small it feels like a box then you’ve gone too far with your yin impulse – the need to make a form to hold the essence – and gone into contraction. #
indeed……and some seem to be suggesting in not so subbtle ways that, ‘the house (of beleifs/perspective) that i have constructed is so much better and more authentic then yours’
really, i thought that people on this forum would have had a bit more respect for other peoples’ individul approach and practice……….
to me, the ‘right’ practice is that which promotes and nurtures, compassion, understanding, trust, sincerity, honesty…..dare i say……love?
– and the means of achieving this will naturally very from person to person.
for me, tradition is good as a reference, not as a rule.
even my master said something that i could not agree with.
he said that any time we give a treatment, we should ALWAYS charge the recipient, because if we treat them for free, they will not appreciate it.
sorry, but i cannot make that generalisation about everyone. some may not have the money. to me, giving need not always be conditional. i beleive gratitude still exists and is more powerful than money alone
why am i saying this? authorities ie masters/texts are helpful as a reference, guide etc. but, i KNOW that there is also an authority within me. when my heart is quiet, it is there, and i must honour it.
AA # Your point is well brought up. It brings attention to creating more balance in this area.- #
yeah Em i’m glad you brought it up to.
But is it possible to “create” the reality? I don’t think so. I think we can evolve how we think/feel/operate within the reality – but the reality is set to a certain extent. That is not to dismiss our own potentialities or possibilities of creation, but maybe some of the discontent that is felt by society in general is fuelled by (what I think) is the misguided notion that we can create/change/manipulate/control everything…which in the average person’s mindset would probably constitute creation of their own reality.
Since I have been meditating etc I know that it isn’t my “reality” that has changed – it is the way I move within it that has changed. This has the effect of making my “reality” more enjoyable and less of a struggle but nothing (on an external level, at least) has changed.
Anyway – that is just how I see things today.
Emelgee
You know Emelgee, I have two plants in front of my store, because I like to bring some green in my city and in my street. And every day these dogs piss against it. I went to phases of unbelieve, anger, withdraw (I took my plants away)and finally went into acceptance. My ultimate goal is to give others the pleasure of a green plant in a grey street, for that I have accepted the fact that my fellow citizens don’t have the insight to let their dogs piss somewhere else instead in front of a store with nice plants. My plants are just very nice, sure, dogs like to piss against them 😉
So I decided to clean my pots and street every day.
I can’t expect that others have the same idea of how respect is shown, so for that reason I do the cleaning, with patience. I can’t expect others see the beauty of my plants, I can’t expect others to see the importance of green in our street, other than a dog piss place.So it is on the inside as well. We cultivate and clean/clear ourselves to bring something more beautiful into this world, without expecting that others understand our goal.
But it can be helpful to bring awareness and explain what you think or feel about certain things. That is what people do here on the forum. Some like to piss and stirr something inside of another person, some do the cleaning to bring forward the beauty or the wisdom. They both have a purpose, depends on how we deal with it.
But is it possible to “create” the reality? I don’t think so.
-Of course it is! We’re doing it all the time. Look at Wendy and her pots. Think quantum, E!-
I think we can evolve how we think/feel/operate within the reality – but the reality is set to a certain extent. That is not to dismiss our own potentialities or possibilities of creation, but maybe some of the discontent that is felt by society in general is fuelled by (what I think) is the misguided notion that we can create/change/manipulate/control everything…which in the average person’s mindset would probably constitute creation of their own reality.
-We cannot and should not control everything. But we do have choice and my analogy to room-making says that your thinking and needs and choice-making is what prompted you to choose the house you live in and everything in it. Reality is a construct and thoughts have power. One of the most frequently used statements in spiritual sciences for ages is “Energy follows attention.” What you focus on you create. And in terms of daoism (as a philosophy, of course) it is a given that one sets out to re-create oneself and thus a new life. We are agents of the lifeforce. We are supposed to create.-
Since I have been meditating etc I know that it isn’t my “reality” that has changed – it is the way I move within it that has changed. This has the effect of making my “reality” more enjoyable and less of a struggle but nothing (on an external level, at least) has changed.
-If you chose to practice meditation and then your inner reality changed, it means that that was what you set out to create. Now, if you want, pay attention to the effect your mind power has on externals when you focus it in that direction. Everything out there we made up, including this forum. (I am definitely not promoting trying to control our world but rather to create in harmony with the lifeforce.)
Your original thought was that we might change the emphasis from religion to philosophy so we don’t become fundamentalists, right?
As I mention to Max in our conversation about eating meat, we have issues to get over in order to accomplish that feat. I think it would be great, in fact I can almost see it, if we did let go of the proving syndrome and had real acceptance. Then we could talk with each other and get even more out of it. But life’s about growth and that means facing our resistances. I think that’s what’s at the bottom of this.
Michael likes to use the term “way-making” to describe daoism. I like the implications of that. It’s non-dogmatic, which is basic daoist mindset, and thus leaves the field open for each of us to create what daoism is for him/her. Maybe after we have this conversation for a while we will distill daoism down to such a simple and useful thing that we can co-author a book called “Daoism For Dummies.”--Laughter, Alexander
I think there is already a book called “Daoism for Dummies” (I am not joking!).
Good points, A. Thanks.
Morning, A
Where do you go from here? Probably nowhere in the immediate future 🙂 (At least not in any kind of obvious way). I kept it short yesterday as I was ill.
But you have reminded me of something I had heard somewhere re quantum physics etc so I will re-investigate and probably be back with more thoughts at some point in the future.
Unfortunately, my every day life is throwing up a few things I have to deal with right now – so my attention is diverted to that 🙁
Got some crazy making friend who I am on the verge of walking away from…for 10 long years I have been trying to find whatever situation would make this person happy – tried to create a caring environment for this person so she could let some of her defences down – but nothing has worked and it is now having a very bad effect on me. I feel disillusioned but I know that my disillusionment has nothing to do with her but more to do with my desire (ego?) to “save” her – to think I could do this. I realise now I don’t have enough energy to keep this person above water…so now I am readying myself to walk away.
“Got some crazy making friend who I am on the verge of walking away from…for 10 long years I have been trying to find whatever situation would make this person happy – tried to create a caring environment for this person so she could let some of her defences down – but nothing has worked and it is now having a very bad effect on me. I feel disillusioned but I know that my disillusionment has nothing to do with her but more to do with my desire (ego?) to “save” her – to think I could do this. I realise now I don’t have enough energy to keep this person above water…so now I am readying myself to walk away.”
-That sounds healthy to me. It seems that you are ready to let go of a draining influence you have been carrying around. Sometimes we feel like taking care of someone who is mirroring a part of ourselves that needs to grow and we are parenting it. Compassion knows when to quit. Dependency doesn’t.
Can I give you some advice?
Scroll down if the answer is Yes…Find some open space inside your heart for yourself while in meditation and hold it with a smile. Let go. Then invite the “other part” to sit with you and see what happens. Just hold the love space open. Breathe. Smile. Relax. Don’t do anything.
I will see you complete with it.-
Happy healing, A
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