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Bagua,
You surprise me with what little respect you have for Daoist inner alchemy. The Daoists have been doing this for thousands of years to create this golden light body and reunite with the Dao. You said earlier, “I feel this alchemy is a poewrful medical Qi Gong, one reason I do it.” Not you, not Michael, not me, has experienced this golden light body and so you cannot say anything about this from practical experience, so please do not give me this theory or ideas nonsense. You said you have gone on a damo qigong retreat. They have hermit shelters there to rent and you practice damo’s inner alchemy then dispense with food and sleep and create this golden light body. THEY SAID THAT NOT ME, CHECK THEIR SITE PLEASE. This is the intent of Daoist inner alchemy, YOU DON’T HAVE TO BELIEVE IT.
Also, I don’t misinterpret your views because I never have interpreted them, I only said what you have stated, that we should attune to our center and be in a state of wu-wei. You’ve been saying this 10,000 times and I understand that, I didn’t mean any disrespect, you took it that way. I only referred you to what Michael said, that you are falling into an illusion of wu-wei. I WASN’T SPEAKING FROM IDEAS, THEORY, OR PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, BUT REFERENCE.
Yes, we are complete now in the present but I was referring to soul completion, this is what Michael will talk about and immortality as he said he would. Enough about these games Bagua, it is you who are misinterpreting me and taking Daoist inner alchemy as something for mere medical qigong.
Fajin
hi fajin:
If you want to quote me, then quote my entire comment, not extract out what you choose.
The soul is complete, one just needs to rid themselves of the extra baggage, maybe your golden body will appear.
Good Luck in your alchemical, immortal journey.
smiling in the tao,
bagua
Hello again Bagua,
It’s interesting discussing with you, let’s just wait for Michael’s answer on this.
With peace,
Fajin
Yes, it is such a subtle point to me it’s hard to say anything about it. I know you have a developed language that you use and that’s fine but I am not sure language itself captures what is being communicated.
But, obviously, it is useful to have language even though it’s limited.
I don’t like to define ego since that’s all just a game but my present understanding from my study and practice is the “limited self”(ie ego) is essentially “seen through” at a certain stage. I don’t like defining everything and putting labels on what certain states are like a scientist. I am not sure spiritual practice develops along those lines but I can see how it is appealing to the intellect that is can.
I am not at the stage of having no ego and don’t know that such a state is really attainable or even desireable but just the freeing up of concepts of ones self, ones definitions, conditioning, habits, beleifs, judgements etc etc, that freeing up of that opens up a great expanse that is beyond words or concepts and not really defined by a personal self. That is, a person with a story and veiws and opnions on everything.
Obviously, you have been called to do your work and feel strongly about it and probably some people find your views useful and helpful. I wouldn’t presume anything you say is incorrect and the limitations of language and the medium being used make it somewhat challenging to convey subtle points about what an experience of state of mind is without definitions.
Of course, your a writer so maybe you really enjoy trying to describe these sorts of things:).
Cameron
Just now as I got home a little girl was playing outside and she was enthusiastically talking to her father on his porch. She was pointing up to heaven and said “Higher than the land of America and higher than God”.
I don’t think I could possibly get a better teaching to ponder.
Wow, you really put some time into this and I appreciate you cared enough to dedicate you to clearing things.
I simply can’t go point by point to respond to all this- it would take a lot of time, plus believe it or not, I agree with lots of it anyway. I want to address the most important aspects of this debate.
But from my understanding, the ultimate goal of all functioning in that Buddhist state of enlightenment is to help other human egos get off the wheel of incarnation, i.e. GET OUT OF THE PHYSICAL PROCESS OF INCARNATION.
The ultimate goal of a realized being would be to help others to realize the same state of complete enlightenment or original nature (see below). A short-term goal would be to free them from suffering through of their mastery over sensations and their influence on the mind.This desire to get off the wheel of incarnation is why, in my view, Chan Buddhists have seized upon the early Taoist TECHNIQUE of Sitting in Forgetfulness or letting go or emptying the xin/heart-mind and employ it to reach their goal. Its simple to learn, thus can be taught to the masses (at that time, simple peasants). And its effective in relieving the stress of the post-natal mind. It s a kind of unpointed one-pointedness…. …Its the lure of any one-pointed technique: get on this ONE horse and ride it all the way to the Transcendent End. Dont bother your mind with any other complication, you will end up lost in a side alley.
May I remind you Kuan Shih Yin used listening to sounds method to attain complete enlightenment or, according to Taoists, immortality (Shurangama Sutra).The Chan position was perhaps best summed up by Ken Cohen, who in his Way of Qigong book quotes one of his teachers as saying in effect, If the transformations are jing to chi to shen to wu, why not take a shortcut and just skip the first three and focus on Emptiness only?
This is completely distorted. Please don’t use such low tactics to prove you points.Kens first Tao teacher, the famous and loquacious Alan Watts, was, by the way, really a Chan Buddhist he hated alchemical Taoism. I wonder if a little alchemical practice might have helped Watts alcoholism, which apparently contributed to his early death.
Another example how you use one person to discredit millions of others.Ego is the term Freud used to describe the individual self (to be distinguished from egotistical/neurotic, negative or dysfuncitonal behavior of the ego). We should also be asking, What is ego in Chan?, to balance out the question What is ego in Daoism?, but I leave that for Max
Is ego of a Taoist different from ego of a Buddhist? So, why do we need to play the head games in hopes we catch each other and hang on to words?
Wang Ch’ung-yang, the immortal teacher of famous 7 Taoist Immortals had this to say on this and other topics that were raised in your post (this also falls under what Bagua was saying):“Everyone has original nature. We do not see it because it is often clouded by craving, desire, and evil thoughts. If we do not sweep away that which hides our original nature, we will lose our connection with Earlier Heaven and be doomed to countless lifetimes of suffering. How does one reconnect with Earlier Heaven? Earlier Heaven must be experienced with the heart of the Tao. If one tries to understand Earlier Heaven with the EGO, one will never find it. Earlier Heaven and original nature are in front of us. We cannot see it because the ego has constructed a barrier. If we are able to dissolve the ego, then original nature, or the heart of the Tao, will emerge. When the heart of Tao emerges, Earlier Heaven will appear.”
“Today I shall expound the meaning of stillness. If you understand the meaning of stillness not only will you understand the Tao, but you will be able to manage a family and rule a kingdom. There is deep meaning hidden in the word ‘stillness’. Many talk about stillness, but few really understand it. To get to the root of stillness one must view the word as empty. One enters stillness through severing ties to whatever disrupts stillness. When you are in a state of stillness you need to be alert and must dissolve stray thoughts before they contaminate the stillness. In this way, distractions will disappear before they arise…”
“If you don’t know your heart, you do not know the Tao. Therefore, to cultivate the Tao, you must first start with cultivating your heart. You must replace a heart of stray thoughts and desire with a heart of the Tao. Still your thoughts and calm your mind. Tame the wildness in you until nothing can cause your mind to move. Taming the heart in not easy. You must be on guard constantly. When you notice your mind moving, you should calm it. Only through this can you build a strong foundation. The mystery of the Tao in in the emptiness of mind. Dissolve your thoughts, and the original breath of life will emerge. The heart belongs to the element of fire, and fire [symbol] has both yin and yang components. Yang and Yin need each other to copulate and produce the Golden Pill. Thoughts residing in the mind are like monsters. They are obstacles that prevent you from attaining the Tao. If you are unable to still your mind, then you can accomplish nothing and the Tao will be farther away then ever.”
Like I said before in other posts, Buddha taught to “complete you destiny” through methods involving observation of sensations within the body. I already mentioned the technique before- but unless you use it to go deeper into the most subtle inner layers of your shen all the arguments about it are useless.
You keep pushing this idea that somehow a Buddhist meditator represses their destiny from being complete by ‘checking out’ from reality. How can a clear unpolluted mind observing surroundings as they are be called ‘checking out’?
You also said things about ‘neutral’ space with connection to Buddhism. I don’t know where you get your information. There is no neutral, left, middle, right, up, down, central… whatever. These are just words that don’t describe the state clearly. The best explanation of this state is AS IS. Everything is AS IS. Is it better?
But mostly agree with a lot of what you said. My feeling also is that the person has to have a ‘pure’, ‘clear’, ‘unpolluted’ mind and heart before they start practicing the alchemy you teach. That’s what the pre-requisite was for aspiring students of the Tao ages ago to even get the instructions. Don’t tell me times are different now and we are opening the old secrets to the masses. 99.9% of us will fail without even knowing why. Everything must be pure- I remember Plato said a few years ago referring to alchemical formulas: ‘If you start ‘cooking’ shit, why do you expect to get something else in return?’ And eventually on the path, you need to let go of the structures that brought you there. Or is the alchemical prison you’ve created too comfy to let go? 🙂
Hello Max,
My intent is not to say anything bad about Chan, I respect it, so don’t take it as that and don’t underestimate me because I have not practiced these formulas yet. Thank you, no disrespect to you intended.
Let me say my part in this. I don’t know if you had read my interesting article about the heart brain, if you haven’t read it now before going any further. It shows that the heart communicates with the brain to relay emotions and that it is what is called personal heart shen or the postbirth spirit. We know the personal heart shen acts as a commander with the other yin organs, just as the heart brain does according to recent science.
I will use reference to the wonderful quote by Wang Ch’ung-yang to explain my conclusions. The heart brain (40,000 neurons in the brain) is the monkey mind because it communicates (through hormones and electromagnetically) with the other organ intelligences (western science says different parts of the brain) to act, wether that is walking (instinct/po/lungs), contemplating (thought/yi/spleen), etc. Although, we know that we will always have negative emotions and so whatever we do it seems that the ego is an obstruction and it is therefore likened as an obstruction to see our original nature as Wang Ch’ung yang said. Also, as he said, it is the heart fire which rises an analogy used to describe the monkey mind agitated or restless with thoughts. So we cannot act creatively and spiritually with the obstruction of the ego. I agree with you and Bagua on this.
I see it that if we work on the emotions through fusion (have not gone there yet, but have with smile on a deep level), then the heart brain will relay it’s creative, spiritual self from communicating with the other parts of the brain (other 4 organ shen). So, like you said Max we should practice Michael’s alchemy with an unpolluted mind first. That’s what the inner smile does, but fusion (the 1st formula) does at a deeper level.
I think that the real problem of this debate is that the word ego is not good. Rather we should say what we should do about the monkey mind (xin), work on the emotions (Daoist way) or become empty (Chan), no negative, but no positive, this is WHAT I THINK that Michael meant on neutrality. We won’t have the heart brain obstruct us in our path, but it won’t help us either.
Just look at the universe, it is 99.99999999…% zero point energy (yin) and 0.00000001…% matter (yang) vibrating. So too we should have that same ratio of positive (creative/spiritual self) to negative (ego). This is the way of the Dao. This way we can see our true original nature because the ego will not obstruct us. We are not taking advantage of this heart brain through Chan. We are complete with 3 brains, so let’s use them. Chia does, look at his research on the gut brain with scientists in Vienna. Look at his wisdom qigong.
Fajin
Fajin
“2. You gain tremendous freedom by successfully identifying yourself as I am Neutral Witness Only an admirable advance over the masses of ordinary people stuck in a fixed polarity identity. But you may limit your development to a half-truth, based on an unconscious fear of becoming re-identified (attached) to polarity. ”
You have correctly defined the way of shaddow immortal.
But…
Such also has a means of shadow:
By skillfull steps of contemplations one can ‘process’ space in a way
and such direction is the shadow way of creationachieving one’s way
not by suggestion of one’s own will
but by enabling the will of the otherWhen you ask what is self what answers can you produce? Only aggregates. You were born at a certain place and a certain time or year(all concepts) you come from a certain family from a certain country with a certain backround(concepts) they are rich, poor, middle class, ugly, beautiful, successful, popular, unpopular, fun, boring, mean, caring etc etc(infinite concepts).
There is no thing that can really be called a self. Unless your calling your body your self-which is fine.I think the body as an honered vessel to experience life from which is why I try to take care of it but ultimately..it’s really more aggregates.
Like a house. You have a front yard, back yeard, living room, kitchen, den etc..what part of those aggreggates really constitiutes a house as being a house?
I am not calling this zen or taoism or Buddhism or any other concepts the mind loves to attach to just seeing clearly what is self?
Like Ken Cohen said last time I saw him the sun shining in the sky is as much myself as my heart inside my body. I need both to live.
Your developed understanding might just be using different language for the samee xperience(lesser self, greater self, shen) So I’ll leave open the possibilty I simply havent fully grasped your cosmoligy.
Don’t put a head on top of the one you already have the Zenninist say.
Why can you control your body parts and not someone else’s? You are both alive with qi flowing through you, but why are you concsious in your body and not someone else’s? There are two separate selves. His body and your body. You control your body, because your consciousness is in your body. This is self-conciousness. Self-concsiousness or postbirth spirit, the force that makes the heart beat right away before any other functions take place in the fetus. Before instincts (po), before thoughts (yi), before any other part of the brain works the personal heart shen commands it to work.
The personal heart shen is as a result seen as ego because it communicates with the other parts of the brain (po – reptile brain/instincts), yi (thoughts, intent, yi), memory (jing shen), etc. and the resultant action is usually something negative or “egotistical.” This we know because the heart neurons send bio-electric signals to the brain and get a response. It works via hormones (neurotransmitters) too.
Therefore, if we practice the inner smile or fusion we can make the personal heart shen our creative, spiritual self and not an egotistical center of our being because our resultant response from the brain will be a virtuos, creative action. Wether that is any action or function controlled by the human body. This is wu-wei because everything is efortless.
Fajin
Interesting. I have heard Michael Winn speak about that before I think. I also remember him saying how the heart shen connects with the solar logos(sun)in the higher kan and li formulas which sounded interesting.
I am still in exploration mode so will accept your views at face value for the moment. I think alot of the confusion is just the different language that different tradiitons(and teachers)use.
The beleif of the 5 shen doesnt sound that far off the from the Buddhist idea of 5 senses and how they connect to Alaya consciousness(I think that’s what it’s called).
I like the simplicity of some of the Adveta Vedanta teachings that seem to cut right to the heart of the matter but can see how the Taoist Alchemy understadning could be useful.
It’s not just the Buddhist idea of the five senses, it’s the Daoist five element theory that supports 5 shen. I have learned and concluded this view of personal heart shen being an ego or creative power depending on what emotions are involved through my discussion with bagua. Chan tries to attain wu-hsin (non-mindedness) which is a mind that does not grasp, or non-graspiness.
I think that this Daoist approach is better because it goes to the root of the problem with a troublesome, agitated mind – unprocessed emotions. So, of course talking to the organs does do this and make things effortless because they help you in return.
Emptying one’s mind requires effort because there is constantly going to be something bothering you in your mind, so you have to shut it off and remain thoughtless through constant awareness. But again, Daoism goes to the root source of this and so you will always relay those positive, creative, virtues, through “yourself.” It’s just about the right programming that you give to your organs. It’s effortless for you, because the whole team pitches in, all the organs.
Fajin
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