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Bagua,
Here’s a “short” interim reply on one topic only, until I have time to prepare a longer reply on the issue of human soul completion (we’ll call that round 5).I appreciate your holding a beautiful vision of all humans sharing a common space of enlightenment.
I totally support the cultivation of that vision, and all Chan Buddhists or others who are cultivating such a space.
I personally prefer not to call such a space Buddha (-hood), as for me it crowds that space by identifying it with one historical human (or series of Buddhas, in most versions). And I also don’t believe that such a transpersonal space is the end/goal of human evolution – more like a beginning point from which we can collectively communicate with Heaven and Earth and thus freely and more effectively express our collective Human Will. It is a space from which humanity will begin to CONSCIOUSLY SHAPE its collective destiny. Seems right now we do that unconsciously.
And while I accept that Taoist cultivation of xin/heart-mind also includes awareness of such a collective Human space in its process, that simply holding the awareness of that enlightened space is not a sufficient description of what consciously merging Humanity with Heaven, Earth, and ultimately the Tao would be like.
And it doesn’t clearly embrace the process of individual evolution within the collective, which I believe immortality does.I think its relevant that you accept your core identity as being somehow Taoist, it seems after long and perhaps difficult consideration. That suggests to me you have looked deeply into some of these issues.
I think that I correctly surmised that you do not really deeply resonate with other publicly stated Chan theories/cosmologies as to why human mind became unclear. It is more common for these to reveal the roots of Buddhism in its parent culture of Hinduism – both generally hold a fairly deterministic view that your problems (as desires or unclear mind) arise from “karmic samskaras”, i.e. impressions from past lives in which you did something bad and now have to work it out.
As I have pointed out before, I find these cosmologies unsatisfactory and unable to explain how the first human born, who should have been free of any past life, could have developed such an unclear mind/desire.
Such theories also promote a rather linear idea of time and reincarnation and have a very different concept of the soul than you express.Your view is that the iinnocent baby is born with a pure soul, a tabla rasa or blank slate, and its original spirit is gradually corrupted by distracting or negative influences in the world.
Oh, I wish that humanity problems were so simple! Then behavioristic psychology and other changes in the post-natal realm would be able to cure all human problems eventually. Your dream is very close to the dream of materialistic science – they just don’t acknowledge that consciousness arrived first, but is rather a by product of being born.
Yes, when we hug a little newborn they seem so pure and innocent. And clearly they exude the spiritual fragrance of pre-natal chi, of being unconditioned. But the reality is that the seeds of their future destiny are already present. Those seeds have not yet sprouted, so the child is enjoying a honeymoon until his shadow side matures and begins to seek expression.
Ask any mother, especially those with more than one child with the same man. How there seems to be a distinct and pre-formed personality in each child that is totally unique, and waiting to unfold. That kids who receive the same love, same environment, etc. emerge with totally different problems that cannot be pinned down to either mother or father.
If this is the case, then simply “erasing” all the negative inputs and accumulated reactions to life since birth by sitting in “empty-mind” meditation will NOT solve the deeper “seed” problems brought in by the infant soul.
This is why I have concluded that we need to make conscious all the sources of those “seeds” and begin to consciously work to include them in our definition of “self” since they define who we are and our destiny.I think you are well aware of the Taoist theory of ming – that each soul is given a destiny to unfold. The question is HOW is that destiny shaped. If we can know that, we can resolve it at that level, rather than waiting for it to slowly unfold over decades.
I have found that One Cloud’s Seven Formulas for Attaining Imimortality seems to cover all the forces that shape our wordly and spiritual destiny. This of course goes far beyond what Mantak Chia taught me about the formulas. But that is also fitting with the Taoist view of continual process and adaptation to the present moment – I have relanguaged them and adapted them to consciousness that modern humans in the West hold now. In future posts I will show this is completely consonant with the ancient Taoist texts like Tao Te Ching.
So, below I am posting a handout I normally give to my Lesser Kan and Li students, so they have some perspective on the vastness and multiple levels on which our greater Self is functioning within the boundary of Nature. I believe it is too much to attempt to manage all of these forces at once, hence the progressive nature of the formulas.
Someone might experience peace and happiness just by working with the first formula and the Inner Smile.
But large aspects of their Self would remain in a potential state, awaiting for the alchemical spiral of time and other lives to unfold.And of course, my merely asserting these 5 forces exist is not attempting to prove them or offer Taoist scripture as proof. But meanwhile, any reader can decide whether it seems to resonate with their inner truth or not.
————————————-The Five Forces Shaping Human Soul Patterns
& Daoist Alchemy Formulas for Completing Ones DestinyBy Michael Winn
1. ACQUIRED patterns this lifetime (post-natal).
Physical, emotional, sexual and mental experiences that are not completed, often as traumas pretending to be a stuck past ego self. Stored in 5 phase & yin-yang patterns by vital organ spirits & meridians.
Completed using first alchemy formula (Healing sounds, Orbit, Fusion).
Sexual identity completed with Inner Sexual Alchemy (Lesser Kan & Li).2. ANCESTRAL biological & psychological patterns (pre-natal).
Experiences of parents, grandparents, relatives and unknown distant ancestors that are stored and shared genetically in the blood. A collective pool of issues awaiting completion by anyone in that biological lineage.
Completed with all three Water & Fire (Kan & Li) formulas.3. GEOMANTIC forces (deep earth, or geo-natal patterns).
Deep earth directional forces control five phase outer weather cycles & inner psychic weather. Planetary feng shui is imprinted at birth on your constitution and reinforced by geography where you live. Embedded in global social and environmental struggle by collective negative thought forms.
Completed with Sun-Moon Alchemy (Greater Kan & LI).4. ASTROLOGICAL forces (planetary patterns, a.k.a. karmic).
Solar system is 5 phase processes embodied within individual souls.
Planets are your cosmic vital organ spirits, how your subtle bodies step themselves down thru the sun & planets.
Completed with Planetary Alchemy (Greatest Kan & Li), by fusing the five planetary spirits and opening direct Sun to heart-mind (xin) communication.5. STELLAR forces (spiritual lineage patterns).
Essences embody spiritual qualities in collective galactic & star “oversoul” patterns flowing through different dimensions (heavens) of space/time.
Completed with Star Alchemy and Heaven & Earth Alchemy.
——————————Of course, I don’t list the “wuji”, the Supreme Mystery or Tao itself as a force shaping the soul, because “force” is inappropriate way to describe the original womb that is birthing the Life Force and beingness (Original Essence-Breath-Spirit) itself.
And I don’t claim that by merely attending these retreats that an adept will be able to master, i.e. shape all these influences. That might take a while longer….:). But you can bring them into awareness and beging find a center point or frequency from which to communicate with them and let them know that you are ready to enter into conscious relationship.
That is what I believe Tao inner alchemy as a spiritual science/process can do.
it is my experience, not a theory I read in a book.More on soul completion issues coming, not sure how soon.
It is a big topic, a whole book worth.peace and smiling enlightenment,
michaelHello Michael:
That was a wonderful post, thanks for sharing that profound information and insight, very rare people share that to the public. I look forward to reading more on soul completion.
I just have a few comments, mostly to clarify my view.
MW
I personally prefer not to call such a space Buddha (-hood), as for me it crowds that space by identifying it with one historical human (or series of Buddhas, in most versions). And I also don’t believe that such a transpersonal space is the end/goal of human evolution – more like a beginning point from which we can collectively communicate with Heaven and Earth and thus freely and more effectively express our collective Human Will. It is a space from which humanity will begin to CONSCIOUSLY SHAPE its collective destiny. Seems right now we do that unconsciously.
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Ba Gua
I dont concern myself with other people’s view and presentation, we can say Buddha is a name specific person, or a group of people or a state of awareness, for me it is the state of awareness. What others do or say I cant control, so im taking liberty in just sharing my experience and reading between the lines of what those before me were trying to communicate. In the taoist tradtion, they oftern say I got the Tao, or realized the Tao, or somthing like that. Never mind those who say they met Lao Zi and he gave them the Tao, like Zhang Dao Ling.That space is not the end goal. This is very important, that space is a portal to a dynamic, spontaeous aspect of this universe, nothing fixed about it, but it allows us to experience this life in new, fresh, clear ways, that changes is each moment, we do not know what is next, we are living as part of the whole, we are the creator and the creation, this is the inseparable dynamic of Yin-Yang.
I prefer to say humans can enhance the “conscious shaping”, it is going with one path, it is something intrinsic inside us, we do create this direction, we can go with it or against it, if you agree with this then we are in agreement. The how of doing this we may vary in smaller ways.
MW
And while I accept that Taoist cultivation of xin/heart-mind also includes awareness of such a collective Human space in its process, that simply holding the awareness of that enlightened space is not a sufficient description of what consciously merging Humanity with Heaven, Earth, and ultimately the Tao would be like. And it doesn’t clearly embrace the process of individual evolution within the collective, which I believe immortality does.
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BG
For me, individual evolution within the collective is the only way it could occur, as the two are never separate, both of these need to be realized and then it allows one to “evolve” faster.MW
I think its relevant that you accept your core identity as being somehow Taoist, it seems after long and perhaps difficult consideration. That suggests to me you have looked deeply into some of these issues.
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Ba Gua
I generally viewed myself as a person/spirit, with no names. I feel a true taoist is free from labels or names, but because Im involved in many taois things, I am a taoist from that view. But from a spiritual view, im pure spirit, as we all are.MW
I think that I correctly surmised that you do not really deeply resonate with other publicly stated Chan theories/cosmologies as to why human mind became unclear. It is more common for these to reveal the roots of Buddhism in its parent culture of Hinduism – both generally hold a fairly deterministic view that your problems (as desires or unclear mind) arise from “karmic samskaras”, i.e. impressions from past lives in which you did something bad and now have to work it out.
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bagua
It is beyond my intellectual comprehension to understand why “the human mind became unclear, or why the first fall happened”, I think the Chan believe that too. I thnk they are focused on were we are now. I have heard of many theories, but all include a leap of faith at some point. I dont think knowing that is critical in cultivation. Chp 1 of Tao Te Ching expresses this view, we can label certain things.MW
Your view is that the iinnocent baby is born with a pure soul, a tabla rasa or blank slate, and its original spirit is gradually corrupted by distracting or negative influences in the world.Oh, I wish that humanity problems were so simple! Then behavioristic psychology and other changes in the post-natal realm would be able to cure all human problems eventually. Your dream is very close to the dream of materialistic science – they just don’t acknowledge that consciousness arrived first, but is rather a by product of being born.
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bagua
Human codnditioning is one part, DNA/Jing is another/Planetary-Earth is another; San Qing/three threasures is always there. This is clear in all taoist traditions, the method used to cultivate many vary somewhat.WM
Yes, when we hug a little newborn they seem so pure and innocent. And clearly they exude the spiritual fragrance of pre-natal chi, of being unconditioned. But the reality is that the seeds of their future destiny are already present. Those seeds have not yet sprouted, so the child is enjoying a honeymoon until his shadow side matures and begins to seek expression.
Ask any mother, especially those with more than one child with the same man. How there seems to be a distinct and pre-formed personality in each child that is totally unique, and waiting to unfold. That kids who receive the same love, same environment, etc. emerge with totally different problems that cannot be pinned down to either mother or father.
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Bagua
I agree, the jing of two parents/dna has a profound influence. And there is the unknown factor, I think the Chan do not try to spend lots of time on the Unknown factor, but their form of alchemy: meditation, some chanting, working with a teacher, all contribute to this alchemical process. I dont promote only Chan, for me,Taoist and Chan go together.TO me, when you do the formulas, then your just sit and let it all just happen, this is the Chan aspect.
WM
If this is the case, then simply “erasing” all the negative inputs and accumulated reactions to life since birth by sitting in “empty-mind” meditation will NOT solve the deeper “seed” problems brought in by the infant soul.
This is why I have concluded that we need to make conscious all the sources of those “seeds” and begin to consciously work to include them in our definition of “self” since they define who we are and our destiny.
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BG
Im not sure we can “identify all the sources of those seeds”, I think this is endless and beyond our capacity and comprehension, unless you group them in very large categories.To me Chan is about living in the moment, this means living in wu wei in our daily activites, our daily communicates and interactions with others and ourselves, this is a high form of alchemy, and in my view the hardest.
Its one thing to sit in the mountains and enter this space, its another to live from it in everyday life. Chan is about cultivating this and living it, when you live it you have evolved. So its a process of being able to more and more live daily life from this buddha space, this dynamic, spontaneous space, we train and we live, we live/train, this is alchemy too.
But I like both Chan and Tao. In the same way I dont let other Tao traditions hinder me, same goes for Chan, its my expeience of these, not someone else’s.
MW
I think you are well aware of the Taoist theory of ming – that each soul is given a destiny to unfold. The question is HOW is that destiny shaped. If we can know that, we can resolve it at that level, rather than waiting for it to slowly unfold over decades.
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Bagua
We all have five shen, they are in differing conditions for each person, but the genreal qualities of each is the same, the Ming process must manifest through them, if you harmonize them, the big MING, the Ming common to all humans will manifest, this is the focus of CHAN. Their training harmonizes the Five Shen and allows Ming to unfold. there is no fixed thing about this; life is a living, changing process, Chan is about being intune with it, in all its momement to momement changes, this is living in the momement, embracing each breath as it comes, no more no less.Your post on the alchemical formulas is awesome, and from my studies reflects the teachings and experiences of the Taoists before us.
I only make one point. I dont beleive that each formula description is limited to that practice, one can obtain those acheivements in basic things or in with other methods and some will never acheive them. The beauty of this Nei Dan is even if one does not get the listed achievements, they sholud benefit in their life, become healthier, more vitality, peaceful and more balance, and some form of enlightenment.
Smiling with you in the Tao my friend,
bagua
Hello Bagua,
I like your approach of simplicity and adaptation to life. I too have a motto that I live by, “Using no way as way, Having no limitation as limitation.” It was used by the great Bruce Lee and I have used it ever since. I think that these Daoist alchemy formulas fit this and this is why I have decided to begin them. I will explain below.
I’m Sorry for interrupting you and Michael again, I just want to ask you one thing. What exactly is wu-wei to you. I know we have gone over this, but I want to go more in depth on it before Michael begins round 5 of which I won’t interrupt anymore.
Let me give an example of what I think is wu-wei. I have practiced lung-gom-pa in my younger days, in case you don’t know, this training makes your body very light, at the highest levels as light as a feather capable of reaching very fast speeds. At first, you hold breath with qi or lung (Tibetan) at dantian field, then jump in padmasana. Do this many times in darkness after stilling the mond by trataka at a small object like a nightly star in the sky.
At first, you jump, let’s say 2 inches off the floor using much effort. Then after some months, you can go 1 or 2 feet with that same amount of effort. Now, when you reach this level, jumping what you did in the beginning, 2 inches off the floor is a peice of cake. It’s as if almost effortless. I think that this is wu-wei or effortlessness.
I think that the idea of attuning your mind with whatever you are doing, wether, jumping, running, playing basketball, etc. is adapting to the moment and this is the living in the Buddha space as you are talking about. You are certainly able to live life by the moment and attune with the present moment. Although, I do not think that this is wu-wei, because it does not mean that things are done without effort. When you do things so exceedingly well that you barely need any effort, you are a gong fu man at what you do. You have put gong fu (time and effort) into what you are doing and it is like you have mastered it, or you “own it.” You become a super self at it.
The Daoist inner alchemy formulas reflect this wu-wei in daily life because they encompass all the areas like Michael was talking about. Including patterns this lifetime, biological and psychological patterns, deep earth or geo-natal patterns, planetary patterns, and spiritual lineage patterns. These are the five elements of life. By practicing these alchemy formulas, you can achieving wu-wei in these five elements of life.
Of course, you may be tthinking that I did not practice them yet, so what authority do I have to tell you this. I may have not practiced them yet, but from my knowledge of this, to me, this is wu-wei in life, and not a model or formula that blocks freedom, but allows freedom because you have the freedom to work on a certain part of your life, whichever part of your life you need work on. Wether that is ancestral, biological, etc. This is living in wu-wei, just like in martial arts, when you practice a certain art.
It is like in tajiquan when you use qi for movement and less muscles because it all starts become more effortless for you. This is my personal expression of what wu-wei is to me. I know that you may not agree with it bagua, but I think that Daoism is complete and doesn’t need Chan, because Chan is different than Daoism in this regard.
Best regards to you Bagua,
Fajin
Fajin,
This is not a private discussion, everyone is most welcome to chime in.
Especially souls like yourself who have achieved a nice balance of focused discipline and passion for freedom.
Those qualities will take you far on the path of inner alchemy.Just a quick point to add to the notion of “present moment”.
This can be extremely misleading concept, as it is based on time. And time has many time zones,
as I have mentioned before: linear, cyclical, and eternal, with a wide range of frequencies of vibration within those.So there is a danger of excessive focus on physical present moment, as you can then suppress the present moment experience of your subtle bodies.
This is a danger in any one-pointed technique. I have noticed it in some zen meditators, marked by their rigidity.
Perhpas too much sitting creates that rigidity, if there is not enough internal movement.michael
ps.
I have to travel and teach this weekend, so round 5 will be arriving after the Equinox.Thank you for your kindness in allowing freedom of discussing whenever, Michael.
Yes, I forgot about your answer to Nnonnth (btw, where is he at a time like this) on this one. I guess a good definition for time is “a moment of conciousness,” since we are concsious in three bodies. These 3 bodies that you referred to are like jing (linear), qi (cyclical), shen (eternal) as jing is limited so is linear time, as qi is yin-yang cyclical and shen, spirit is eternal.
So, from my understanding Bagua, and I might be wrong so correct me, is that Chan meditators shoot straight at emptiness (wu). Living in the Buddha space (as you said) is living in wu. Not wu-wei. Emptiness is timeless and so has no moment. No moment of concsiousness = unconcsious. So Channers are in wu, not wu-wei. This is the illusion, no? To get super-concsiousness, we would need jing, qi, and shen, then we get concsiousness within unconsciousness, or motion within stillness. Crush the nothingness, fourth stage of Daoism. Jing to qi, qi to shen, shen to wu, crush the wu.
With peace,
Fajin
I guess Chan is to live in wu until the wei kicks in and you get wu-wei. Rather, I think it’s better to go step-by-step, jing to qi, qi to shen, etc. following the four phases. It’s like allowing jing, qi, and shen to catch up to wu because they are the ones who should have been first in the cultivation process. Rather lengthy process and less creative.
Fajin
Hi Fajin:
fajin
I guess Chan is to live in wu until the wei kicks in and you get wu-wei. Rather, I think it’s better to go step-by-step, jing to qi, qi to shen, etc. following the four phases. It’s like allowing jing, qi, and shen to catch up to wu because they are the ones who should have been first in the cultivation process. Rather lengthy process and less creative.
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Ba GuaThere is no Later Heaven or Early Heaven, their is only NOW.
Later Heaven and Early Heaven exist simultaneously, that is the NOW.
You can choose to live in the dream of the Early Heaven, or the memories of Later Heaven, but Tao and Chan exists only in the NOW.Jing/Qi/Shen are not three things, they are not cultivated separately, they are one unified energetics, many ways to cultivate the objective of that model. Some day one needs to take the training wheels (formulas) off.
There is no Wu without Wu Wei. To me Wu Wei means nothing extra, living in the Now, not the past, not the future, whatever that brings, i dont define that, so I hope you or others dont define it for me, its living in the spontaniety of life. This is attuning to Tao, living in Wu Wei is also Chan awareness. Im not interested in critiscizing this chan group or that chan group, all I care about is the experience of Chan. Chan awareness is Tao.
Living in the NOW is attuning to the creativity of Life, its endless. Unless the formulas M. Chia braught to the public attune to the creativety of life, they are limited.
I think we all need to practice more, taoist dont talk so much.
Dancing in the Dao,
bagua
Hi Bagua,
I agree, we do need to practice more and discuss less, but discussion does have value, it is exchange of knowledge and wisdom. I would still like to discuss with you some of these things before Michael begins round 5 so we may both learn from each other.
We should live in the NOW, but what exactly is the now? That is what Michael said, and what I replied in if you didn’t read the other post, what is wu-wei…what is present moment? It is a moment of concsiousness. I assume this to be true because we are concsious in jing, qi, and shen, as you said, we are jing, qi, and shen, or physical body, energy body, and spirit body as Mantak Chia says. This is known fact, not theory. They do live simultaneously like you said but in different time zones, physical body is linear time, energy body is cyclical time, and spirit body is eternal. So, which NOW do you mean? It is a misleading word.
Qi, wether prenatal or postnatal must come from jing, ALWAYS. This is what kan and li formulas accomplish, do they not? Then, we strengthen shen with more qi in star alchemy, from my knowledge this is what that formula does. So, how do you cultivate all three simultaneously, can you further elaborate on this?
From my little understanding of Chan, they do not cultivate jing, qi, and shen, they try to go directly to emptiness. Can you further explain to me how all three are cultvated simultaneously and how life is effortless by living in the NOW? Life is going to seem effortless because the ego is less distracting, but how will it be effortless?
Fajin
Hi fajin:
I think you are very trapped in ideas, concepts and theories. And do me a favor, there is no need to keep referring that Michael will do this or do that, I will interact with him too.
Fajin
Hi Bagua,
I agree, we do need to practice more and discuss less, but discussion does have value, it is exchange of knowledge and wisdom. I would still like to discuss with you some of these things before Michael begins round 5 so we may both learn from each other.
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Yes discussion helps, but it can get in the way too, one needs to use it to support their practice.Fajin
We should live in the NOW, but what exactly is the now? That is what Michael said, and what I replied in if you didn’t read the other post, what is wu-wei…what is present moment? It is a moment of concsiousness. I assume this to be true because we are concsious in jing, qi, and shen, as you said, we are jing, qi, and shen, or physical body, energy body, and spirit body as Mantak Chia says. This is known fact, not theory. They do live simultaneously like you said but in different time zones, physical body is linear time, energy body is cyclical time, and spirit body is eternal. So, which NOW do you mean? It is a misleading word.
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Now, is a state of awareness, meditation, tai ji, qi gong are ways to be in the now. I can not give it to you even if I used the perfect words. Practice your cultivation and you will know it.Im sorry my friend, we are shen/jing/QI at all times or you would not be alive.
fajin
Qi, wether prenatal or postnatal must come from jing, ALWAYS. This is what kan and li formulas accomplish, do they not? Then, we strengthen shen with more qi in star alchemy, from my knowledge this is what that formula does. So, how do you cultivate all three simultaneously, can you further elaborate on this?
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Its all a simultaneous process, cannot take one out, like you can not take one of the five elements out, their are a unit, they are integrated, but possibley not in harmony or balance.Fajin
From my little understanding of Chan, they do not cultivate jing, qi, and shen, they try to go directly to emptiness. Can you further explain to me how all three are cultvated simultaneously and how life is effortless by living in the NOW? Life is going to seem effortless because the ego is less distracting, but how will it be effortless?
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Cultivating three treasures does not have to be the way you have learned, there are many ways for this natural process to he enhanced, taoist alchemy is but one way, and the toaist cannot agree on the specific methods.I will address your last question later, got to go to work.
Dance with me in the Dao?
bagua
Bagua,
I’m sorry, I won’t refer you to Michael.
I am not trapped in ideas, concepts, and theories, I just use what I know as a roadmap to get where I cam going. I verify what concepts or theories are true or not. The universe is law, you should follow that law to free yourself. Don’t do whatever you want, you might think it’s freedom, but it’s going in pointless directions. Life itself has five elements, as does everything, alchemy should work on those five elements until you make it effortless. Just like taij makes movement effortless.
Living in this state of awareness that you have been talking about since the very beginning is what you call wu-wei. You say that we must practice taiji, qigong, meditation, etc. to be in this state of awareness. Whatever gets you in this state of awareness/wu-wei/empty mind/center, etc. supports your practice is what you mean. That’s fine, I understand that.
Don’t think that I am a beginner and don’t practice. I practice 8 hours of taijiquan a day including zhan zhuang, and usually 2 hours of nei dan, I know what this state of awareness is. But you think that living in this awareness is wu-wei. This is where we part, for I think that it is an illusion of wu-wei. You could be in that state of awareness or what you call Chan, but it does not mean that things are effortless. That state of awareness is but a good start, not an ending.
I know that we have jing, qi, and shen, Bagua. I am just saying that since we came from wu then to shen to qi to jing we should reverse that process. This is following universal law, read the I Ching. I’m not saying that there are no other ways, I’m just asking you what other ways would be more effective than this, going in accordance with universal law or Dao. Being in a state of awareness is not Dao, living in accordance with universal law with the utmost freedom is, in my opinion. Chan and Dao are different.
My good friend, Bagua, I like you, but life is more than living in that state of awareness, there are greater acts of free will that correspond with universal law, which you may take advantage of.
I look forward to dancing with you in the Dao as an immortal, Bagua.
Smiles out,
Fajin
Hi Fajin:
I admire that you deidicate your life to cultivation, this is wonderful.
faj
Life itself has five elements, as does everything, alchemy should work on those five elements until you make it effortless.
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I dont think life has five individual elements. The Wu Xing or Five Phases are a process, not individual stuff of life. They are interdependent process, we learn how these processes function and learn to harmonize with some of them. These are universal energy patterns, an enligthened mind/hart attunes to them, they become them, this is Chan.I get the impression and I can be wrong, you think Chan is a staticthing, not in tune with cycles, patterns, changing nature of life, that is has no peaks and valleys, well this is incorrect, Chan is life at it is, in all its diversity, in all its changes and in all its patterns. Five phases, can be 10 (stems), can be 12 (branches), can be 60 (JiaZi) and on and on, Chan awareness experiences all aspects of life, directly, but not with the conditoned mind, or more accurately, it does not attach to the past or future ideas and thoughts as their self; chan awareness is the sun, moon, stars, trees, people, sandwhich, etc, it is all of life. The creator and creation are one.
Fajin
Don’t think that I am a beginner and don’t practice. I practice 8 hours of taijiquan a day including zhan zhuang, and usually 2 hours of nei dan, I know what this state of awareness is. But you think that living in this awareness is wu-wei. This is where we part, for I think that it is an illusion of wu-wei.
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because it is illusion for you, does not mean it is for all others. I did not say you must do those practices, i said those practice may bring you to that realization, perception, awareness, how ever we lable it. Many things can do this.Fajin
You could be in that state of awareness or what you call Chan, but it does not mean that things are effortless. That state of awareness is but a good start, not an ending.
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I did not say effortless, not me. It takes effort to write, do tai ji for 8-hours, read or just live life.Fajin
I know that we have jing, qi, and shen, Bagua. I am just saying that since we came from wu then to shen to qi to jing we should reverse that process.
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This is just a model, it is not linear creation. BOOM, it is all functioning at once. if that model brings your goal great, as long as it gets you to cultivate great.fajin
This is following universal law, read the I Ching. I’m not saying that there are no other ways, I’m just asking you what other ways would be more effective than this, going in accordance with universal law or Dao.
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Chan is living in accordance with the tao, not sure why you dont get this.
Read Tao Te Ching, Ch 1,“One may designate spirit as the origin of the universe,
and matter as the mother of the myriad things,Although differently names, spirit and matter are one indivisible whole”
Spirit-Matter are one
Jing-Shen are one
No way to separate one from the other in this life, each influences the other. Yin-Yang are inseparable.Faj
Being in a state of awareness is not Dao, living in accordance with universal law with the utmost freedom is, in my opinion. Chan and Dao are different.
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I think your “assumption” of Chan is not what my view is, no words can resolve this. Only training in Chan and a good teacher.Faj
My good friend, Bagua, I like you, but life is more than living in that state of awareness, there are greater acts of free will that correspond with universal law, which you may take advantage of.
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Chan is about experiencing life as it is, in all its variety, no more, no less. It implies we are inspired and take actions from a space not motivated by the past, dreams of the future, but clear consiousnees of NOW, we are not robots, free will in accordance with this magical planet and its process is also Chan.Faj
I look forward to dancing with you in the Dao as an immortal, Bagua.
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I want to dance now.
I believe a profund truth is:“As above so below”
If you are not immortal here, you will not be wherever you go.
If you are not free here, you will not be elsewhere.
Insighful taoists have said this, every chan poet has said this.
I sincerly wish to dance with you here and now, as immortals.I believe in Taoist alchemy, I practice it, but Im not limited by the model and words.To me the essence of tao alchemy is to merge or attune to life, whether it be the sun, moon, planets, to where there is no you, there is no me, the sun and you are one, no more,no less. This is realizing that we are part of an eternal and immortal creation, this is our true nature, what could be grander?
Smiling in the infinite Tao,
bagua
Hello again Bagua,
I very much so like discussing with you, I learn more about others and their view, it was certainly good coming to this forum.
Interesting stuff. Though, life is a constant process of relating. There are five elements within us, around us in nature, and everywhere. Like you said, we must harmonize them within ourselves by becoming interdependent on the macrocosmos. This is where cosmology sets in and the formulas. Experiencing life as it is, is simply flowing in the process we call life. What if that flow is disrupted or blocked, how then do we go by it? Though, you say that Chan is attuned with nothing, yet everything so you don’t need any models/formulas. In these formulas, we resolve ancestral issues, karmic issues, etc. to live life in wu-wei, from my understanding, not experience yet. The Chan approach, from my knowledge, sees that there are no issues in the first place! So, why practice formulas?
I think that there is a reason that Daoists have formulated these alchemical methods that have withstood the test of time for a reason, Bagua. Every path I know of, all the yogas, Tibetan, Egyptian, Mayan, Native, Atlantean, Celtic, etc. has some sort of energy work. We are born free, yet everywhere in chains, said English philosopher John Locke. If we are everywhere in chains, let’s go safe inside our space, then act from it, we’ll be safe and free say Channers. But will our actions be free or binded by the chains? They will certainly be spontaneous because inside our space there are no chains, but there are outside. This is why we need some formulation to go about.
A CHOICE of many formulations to work on many issues in life. We can stay in our space and act out spontaneously and experience life as it is, but will we be prepared for what life has in store for us? Like training in martial arts, we can be one with the opponent but even if we are one with him, is our body well-conditioned enough to be able to handle him in a fight? We can spontaneously react to his movements, but won’t our movements be too slow if we don’t somehow train our bodies to move fast? In life, there is flow to. We must somehow condition ourselves to be able to flow to meet these incoming blocks/disruptions to our flow. Living in the space just doesn’t cut it.
I won’t say anything more on completion and immortality, as I’m sure that Michael (no, I’m not referring anything, just saying) has an essay planned on this.
Are you David Twicken, bagua? I saw you on another site about po and hun souls and I looked at one of your posts, you signed David Twicken.
Good luck David, may you go where you want to go, “NO-WHERE”
Hahahahahahaha!!!
P.S. I hope I don’t sound to theoretical!
Fajin
However much one consciously knows what one is doing, there is something that one does not know and must wait to receive. ‘Seeking’.
At the point where what one knows and what one does not know is the same – there is ‘wu wei’.
To let go one must first be very disciplined in attaining what one will let go.
There is no division of spirit/soul/body/void – except for the convenience of becoming aware of where and what to ‘seek’. You separate in order to recombine into one thing. Solve et Coagula. There was a separation because you said so and a recombination because *it* said so.
If you know all the Taoist ‘formulas’ you can (as Michael says) experiment with them to see where something needs to be done. It is an ‘experiment’ because you wait for a ‘reply’, a result, from some unknown ‘it’. At a point where ‘you’ are both the question and the reply – there is wu wei. Permanent inspiration.
This from an artistic magician’s perspective who knows nothing about chan and nothing about taoist alchemy! But is it any good?
I am wondering what is the ‘chan’ attitude to sexual work, but hardly dare ask. I do agree strongly w/ Fajin that something needs to be *built*, I think in the end always by a sexual method. I can’t see masturbation + earth elemental yin as a replacement for a human woman in this process somehow! – but that might be my own lack of imagination I guess.
It is amazing how, in very different language, this conversation is covering alot of ground that Freeform and I covered before… about who decides and to what level decision is conscious.
NN
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