- This topic has 27 replies, 7 voices, and was last updated 18 years, 7 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
I see the Dragon Warrior Fagin has done a skillful job in my absence of persistently and intuitively clarifying the Dao, which he was clearly born to explore.
And that the Dark Turtle Warrior Bagua, with the 8 trigrams of the Dao armoring his back, and shielding his empty-centered chan belly, has ably presented his modern integration of chan and dao.
I had promised to address the issue of completion, which is surely a philosphical dividing ground between these two paths, at least as presented by bagua. It is different intentions arising from different cosmologies/philosphies that produce different methods. But this issue of completion will wait a bit; it seems we should first go deeper into the issue of Emptiness, and its Utility and relation to the Wheel of Life.
Do chan buddhists seek emptiness for the same reasons that Daoists do?
Clearly, both employ the concept; the Chan have borrowed the Dao method of “Sittting in Forgetfulness”
and made its process of emptying the heart-mind/xin their mainstay.But once Emptiness is achieved, do the Chan advocate “using” emptiness to achieve some other goal?
I have never seen such a position expressed here or in any of the Buddhist writings I’ve been exposed to – apart from the Tibertan tantrics, such as quoted by Trunk. The Tibetans do propose to use the emptiness.But for most others, including the Chan Buddhists, we find that the Emptiness is the supreme goal and that it is ultimately beyond this world – how else could it free us from the Wheel of Life?
That if one can grasp the truth of this Emptiness deeply enough, that one will be freed from suffering. It is the First Noble Truth of Buddhism that suffering is caused by the endless cycle of birth-death-rebirth, and thus to end suffering we must get off this endless wheel of incarnation.
We are not splitting hairs here, or judging one path over the other; we are clarifying what the process of each is, or claims to be.
If Bagua disagrees with the First Noble Truth of Buddha, then I think he cannot really be called a Buddhist in its conventional meaning, and would have to found a new neo-Buddhist school that somehow differs or claims to advance beyond Buddhas teachings. Perhaps Bagua should call himself a “Lao Chan-tzu”. :))
Of course, the Chan Buddhists were rebels and wanted to distance themselves from the Indian teachings of the Buddha as far too complicated and intellectual. (The true meaning of dukka I am told is not suffering, but distraction, as in a mind that is distracted will suffer from ignoring it core focus. All the concerns of someone bent on escaping their overbearing mental faculties but I digress).
And we need to acknowledge that Chan Buddhism was and is a monastic path in China they felt the need to separate themselves from the world. Hui Neng is a priest and a patriarch; lao tzu and chuang tzu are not, they live in the world with the common folk. My theory is that this monastic and essentially ascetic/sexless separation from the world is what propels their missionary activities, as modern Chan groups are wont to do.
I speak not only of max/Nan huai chins obvious zeal for saving suffering souls from the wheel of life, but my experience with other chan groups operating in the USA who offer Taoist initiations, a free meal, and a chance to join their chan sect. This missionary work is part of completing their buddhist mission. This desire is not only an issue of accumulating merit; I wonder if you sit deeply in emptiness as ones metaphysical focus if it doesnt propel one to seek balance in worldly activity, perhaps at core a need for any yin-yang movement?
And, I will remind again, that I am indifferent to whatever path people choose, as I accept that any path will help them to unfold their nature, however slowly. Your life is your path, and no one in a body can get off of that path.
But that it is best to NOT reduce all paths to the same bland Oneness. So here I disagree with Fajin, Bagua, and max: No Path ends up in the same place. Each path is unique, just as each human has a unique body-mind, they will also have a unique spiritual experience of self-realization. What force is operating to ERASE the difference?
Undoubtedly, the chan would say Emptiness erases the difference, if they go along with other Buddhists. But just because the two paths begin walking the same path for a way, doesnt mean they stay on the same road. The path of Emptiness is not the path of Immortality, which preserves uniqueness even as it sustains the collective. The two paths are different, even though they intersect in their early and perhaps even middle stages.
My reading of the Daodejing is that the Chan have likely latched on to the expressed notion of emptiness – undoubtedly pre-disposed by earlier Buddhist teachings on Emptiness as the greatest virtue beyond all life – but that they did not understood its utility as intended by the Daoist sages.
This is the key difference: in the Daoist view, emptiness is part of the manifest Dao, the primordial ground that is invisibly present and generates the cycles of yin-yang life. It forms a trinity with yin-yang that is permanent and eternal, i.e. cannot be transcended.
Achieving emptiness does not remove one from the cycle of life-death-rebirth or remove one from the world; rather it takes one deeper into it as an inescapable part of the Daos Great Wheel turning endlessly. No amount of achievement of Emptiness in meditation can stop that Yin-Yang Wheel from Turning. Rather one cultives life within a dynamic of true yin and true yang; the wheel thus rolls effortlessly, no bumps.
The metaphor of the Wheel used by Lao tzu and Chuang tzu makes this perfectly clear;
The wheel gains its utlity from having an empty hub from which the spokes of life are generated. The empty space at the center of the wheel is not in another dimension or the cure for the ills of life and its suffering; rather it is what generates life and moves with the wheel of life as it rolls along.And curiously, by great serendipity, on my way to the airport leaving New York, I stopped in a bookstore and happened upon a recent book called Daoism Explained by Hans-Georg Moeller, a prof. of Taoism in Canada. He makes the point about the Daoist notion of return to the Origin being similar to the empty hub of the wheel and the female gate to the Dao:
The image of the root (in the Daodejing) certainly portrays the Dao as some kind of origin, but not as a divine creative force. It rather shows that Daoist philosophy conceived of creation as something without an absolute beginning, it is an ongoing process of which its origin is an integral part.
The origin is NOT beyond or next to what is originated, it is rather always within that which is, and has no place outside of this ..The root of a plant does not exist BEFORE the rest of the plant. It is a part of the plant, albeit it a special one. The root is where growth originates, but it is nevertheless totally integrated with the rest of the plant like the hub is totally integrated with the rest of the wheel. The root is not something metaphysical with respect to the plant, it does in no way transcend the plants physical existence.
Lets not fool yourselves Chan Buddhists this is NOT the Buddhist conception of emptiness and does not describe the emptiness where the Buddha and his Boddhisattvas reside.
And this of course gets us back to the central discussion of why its necessary to include jing-chii-shen-wu in your training if you want to cultivate the Daoist experience of immortality. Immortality here is the shift from a single ego spoke of consciousness, to connect into the neutral empty mind hub of the wheel, and then to expand out to become all the spokes and the wheel itself, including its outer rim (flow of physical linear time).
The immortal is not escaping from the wheel of life by hanging out in the empty hub, but is merging into the experience of the whole wheel, and adding his/her Yi, or creative imagination as to what direction the wheel should go to maximize its experience of harmony, balance, and freedom. The immortal represents Humanity adding some unique value to the Dao, not merely getting out of the way of the Dao so the wheel can roll.
The emptiness of the hub doesn’t not exist without the spokes, just as the core channel does not exist without the front/back or left/right deep yin-yang channels.The structure of the wheel is its jing. Its spiraling movement of its spokes is the yin-yang pulsation of chi. The awareness of where the wheel is going is the shen. The effortless of the wheels turning comes from its axle which incidentally requires expression as the force of yuan chi within that empty space of the hub.
But there is no Daosit notion of getting off the wheel that would be tantamount to getting off the Dao. And there is the implicit notion that by surrendering to the balanced flow between the spokes of the wheel the cardinal directions of space/time and its yin-yang movement that one also stabilizes ones grasp of the center of all the spokes. How can one grasp a center, or a space of emptiness, except by reference to the coordinates of space/the spokes around it?
And I should also add that Georg Moeller has a final chapter on Dao and Chan at the end of the book. He is clearly non-partisan, and probably more familiar with chan/zen methods of meditation than he is with Daoist immortality methods. But his conclusion is that:
Like Daoism, Chan also affirms the authenticity of the here and now, but it also affirms its inauthenticity .While Daoist emptiness and nonpresence (wu) contribute to the genuineness of the reality of the real (note: he clarifies this elsewhere as the self-arising or self-so nature of the Daoist authentic self, ziran).
But Chan Buddhism indeed ends up with some sort of relativism. For Chan Buddhists, the real is always in a dialectical relation with the unreal ..(whereas) ancient pre-Buddhist Daoism affirms the full reality of the real. (In the Lieh tzu), the allegory of the Duke of Niuai and his illness of change showed unmistakably that even in the process of ongoing change, the segments of change lose nothing of their authenticity.
(in short, change causes pain (the illness of change), but its not something to be gotten rid of or transcended it just requires the experiencer of the pain to be more flexible towards change and allow it.)
I think that Moeller has exactly caught the distinction between the utility of Daoist emptiness in lubricating the flow of the Dao and the Buddhist notion of physical reality being quasi-illusory because at heart it has an emptiness more real than the changes.
And I think that is just the first reason why I (and apparently Fajin) are not comfortable with Chan. That the excessive focus on emptiness can produce a detachment from life. It places a higher value on Emptiness than it does on the Life Force. That is a very real difference and probably not very real to Bagua because he is so immersed in Daoist thinking that he takes that life force perspective for granted.
Which approach is Dao, not Chan, unless one re-invents Chan to be even more Daoist than it traditionally is. Which in my opinion, is a good thing – I think Bagua is serving the Chan community well in this way. He honors them, even as he inches them closer to the Dao.
Of cousre, the modern neo-Bagua-Chan response may predictably veer towards denying the buddhist Noble Truth of seeking Emptiness to get off the Wheel of Life and instead claim that all the benefits of jing-chi-shen-wu alchemical cultivation spontaneously happen once you “enter” Emptiness at the hub of the wheel.
I think it is more accurate to say that modern people are so overloaded with information that one immediate cure is going to the opposite, sitting in still emptiness. This has truth to it, just as Kumar’s water method alleviates the excess yang of our culture – initially. But no need to make a school out of a technique, imho, especially if one doesn’t buy the Noble Truth that life is about suffering.
I think the Inner Smile is an advancement over sitting in forgetfulness – it emphasizes OPENNESS over Emptiness, and directly embraces with the human heart the individual ego-spoke, the empty hub, and all the other spokes. But even accepting all that is not immortality – as trunk so succintly pointed out. There is a special ignition process required, which is natural, but rare and difficult enough that sharing a supportive method is surely an act of kindness.
In the next round 6 we will go deeper into the danger of ignoring the split in the human soul and thus its need for completion, and why the problem of life and spiritual realization is much more profound than simply changing ones angle of focus.
But Round 6 comes after a weekend of teaching Fusion of the Five Elements and finishing the summer retreat brochure. So maybe end of next week.
Blessings to all,
as our minds and hearts slowly fuse into common understanding
as we gently tread our separate paths
while looking over our shoulder
to see where our friends paths are leading them.
🙂
michaelHello Michael,
Very well said, but I think that there will be some disagreement with Bagua on this once again. We’ll have to wait for him, but in the meantime I would like to reply to some of this wonderful peice.
>>Dragon Warrior Fagin<< *I like the sounds of it, keep up the good work Michael. To me, a warrior is one who is not afraid of himself, not others. Release the inner dragon!!! >>My theory is that this monastic and essentially ascetic/sexless separation from the world is what propels their missionary activities, as modern Chan groups are wont to do.<< *From speaking to Bagua, he told me that Dao and Chan go together like the sun and moon. I guess he means what is incomplete in Dao, Chan completes, what is incomplete in the Chan path, Dao completes. Though, the essence of the alchemical process as taught by you, Michael, serves as a complete route to the primordial Dao and does not need Chan, but Chan, in our opinion is incomplete, it does not serve what Buddha had taught. >>So here I disagree with Fajin, Bagua, and max: No Path ends up in the same place. Each path is unique, just as each human has a unique body-mind, they will also have a unique spiritual experience of self-realization. What force is operating to ERASE the difference?<< *I might have miscommunicated what I meant. I meant that each and every path has the intent of arriving at wu (emptiness), but not afterwards what to do from there. The FINAL, and I mean FINAL, destination is just not the same, I agree with you on this Michael. >>[The whole wheel analogy]<< *That was the punchline. Wonderfully said! >>And I think that is just the first reason why I (and apparently Fajin) are not comfortable with Chan. That the excessive focus on emptiness can produce a detachment from life. It places a higher value on Emptiness than it does on the Life Force. That is a very real difference and probably not very real to Bagua because he is so immersed in Daoist thinking that he takes that life force perspective for granted<< *I came to the Healing Dao because I really liked your theory of communication with the life force and shaping it into what you want it to become. As you already know, I am very open to merging science with Dao cosmology and this whole life force concept is exactly what I found something very similar in quite recent discoveries of "TACHYON ENERGY." Tachyon energy is the creme da la creme of creation and the power of yi in making it mainfest into anything, like a stem cell than can become anything. But the modern physicists say that tachyon can LITERALLY become anything. Only yi (intent) makes that happen. ALLOWING things to naturally happen does not take advantage of tachyon energy. I will later post more information on tachyon energy. This is exactly why I so much agree with Michael on his refinement into what is the essence of Dao alchemical work. Metta to Michael, Max, Trunk, Bagua, and everyone else! Fajin
Two days ago or was it three, I asked for guidance to my inner immortal, only couple of hours later an Indian ‘guru’ walked in my store and without hesitation he started to talk about my connection with god. For 30 minutes he was talking about who I was etc and showed some tricks, like he wrote my answers in front on a piece of paper, like he could read me.
Anyway yesterday I decided to take a 10 day silent retreat in a Vipassana center.
I am so very tired of this talking on this forum I decided to experience it myself.
And no the ‘guru’ had nothing to do with my decision but I do believe my immortal gave me a good sign. And since I decided to go for it I feel a lot of piece in my mind and heart.Years ago I went to a Tibetan temple, they had an ‘open day’, many people were on the square. My eyes crossed the eyes of the abbot from the other side of the square, passing all the people standing between us, and in those few seconds I was struck by my own feelings and thoughts, like he was mirroring me. In those few seconds I faced my pride and ‘feeling-better-than’. I was walking in the temple with ‘Daoist eyes’. Lately this memory came back because of this back and forth talking on this forum.
I want to go to the retreat with a real open-minded heart and mind, not with my ‘opinions’. My inner immortal is very wise… he knows what it will do to me, and I know it too.Much love to you all
Hello Michael:
Thanks for writing this post. Its a long one so Im going to offer feedback for selective comments.
One of the main challenges is I do not seek to label and define everything in the universe, and you tend to do this; from my understanding and I think Chan, and by Chan I mean only the experience of it, now organizations of chan Buddhism, more inline with the 1st and 6th patriarchs. So when we talk about “Emptiness”, its a state of consciousness we dont define, as this limits it and its a dynamic awareness, we merge with it, become it and realize this is our true nature (Buddha nature), we experience life as it is in all its variety, this is seeing this as they are, not more, no less; if Fajin or you can not grasp this we will always never get past this points.
MW
Do chan Buddhists seek emptiness for the same reasons that Daoists do?
************************************
I think so. Alchemists talk a little different than Lao Zi, my understanding is Lao Zi and Chan are the same.MW
But once Emptiness is achieved, do the Chan advocate “using” emptiness to achieve some other goal?
****************************
This is an important question, I believe this emptiness is the portal to seeing our true nature and that is enough for part one, next is to live it on a daily basis, this is overcoming conditioning and patterns, which becomes easier when one experiences their true nature, and continues their cultivation.MW
But for most others, including the Chan Buddhists, we find that the Emptiness is the supreme goal and that it is ultimately beyond this world – how else could it free us from the Wheel of Life?
**********************************
Its Emptiness reveals that is the goal and once again your idea of Emptiness maybe very different that Chan. This is one goal of a Teacher, to check and test you have this experience and test to see if you apply it in your life.WM
That if one can grasp the truth of this Emptiness deeply enough, that one will be freed from suffering. It is the First Noble Truth of Buddhism that suffering is caused by the endless cycle of birth-death-rebirth, and thus to end suffering we must get off this endless wheel of incarnation.
********************
I think you are wrong here.
“Attachment” is the cause of suffering, especially attachment to ego and what others try to get you to think your self is, this is the cause of the endless cycle, we need to agree on this or your entire premise is based on false understanding.MW
We are not splitting hairs here, or judging one path over the other; we are clarifying what the process of each is, or claims to be.
*********************************
Well I hope you will agree your presentation on Buddhist basics needs some work.WM
If Bagua disagrees with the First Noble Truth of Buddha, then I think he cannot really be called a Buddhist in its conventional meaning, and would have to found a new neo-Buddhist school that somehow differs or claims to advance beyond Buddhas teachings. Perhaps Bagua should call himself a “Lao Chan-tzu”. :))
**********************************
See my comments above.
In any case, for me “Lao Chan-Zi” works for me, there is a deep harmony that resonates with that.MW
Of course, the Chan Buddhists were rebels and wanted to distance themselves from the Indian teachings of the Buddha as far too complicated and intellectual. (The true meaning of dukka I am told is not suffering, but distraction, as in a mind that is distracted will suffer from ignoring it core focus. All the concerns of someone bent on escaping their overbearing mental faculties but I digress).
******************************
Maybe bud has followers made it complex, we feeling from readings is that Bodhidharma, 28th in the lineage form Buddha, was a Buddhist and his followers stayed close to Buddhas teachings, his experience. Buddhism become the predominant religion in china, based on emperor’s desires and with it came many sects and variations in mixtures, this is true for Dao Alchemists, so many distortions, sexual predators, I think this is true for all traditions. What you teach is not what all others taught.WM
And we need to acknowledge that Chan Buddhism was and is a monastic path in China they felt the need to separate themselves from the world. Hui Neng is a priest and a patriarch; lao tzu and chuang tzu are not, they live in the world with the common folk. My theory is that this monastic and essentially ascetic/sexless separation from the world is what propels their missionary activities, as modern Chan groups are wont to do.
****************************
Well I dont agree entirely. Lao Zi promoted living in the world, but did leave to the quiet of the mountains. Chaung Zi promoted not living in society, that is was to pollute, he encouraged living away from cities.WM
I speak not only of max/Nan huai chins obvious zeal for saving suffering souls from the wheel of life, but my experience with other chan groups operating in the USA who offer Taoist initiations, a free meal, and a chance to join their chan sect. This missionary work is part of completing their Buddhist mission. This desire is not only an issue of accumulating merit; I wonder if you sit deeply in emptiness as ones metaphysical focus if it doesnt propel one to seek balance in worldly activity, perhaps at core a need for any yin-yang movement?
*******************Why do you teach? Why do you spend much of your time teaching and guiding? Are you just doing your missionary work?
MW
But that it is best to NOT reduce all paths to the same bland Oneness. So here I disagree with Fajin, Bagua, and max: No Path ends up in the same place. Each path is unique, just as each human has a unique body-mind, they will also have a unique spiritual experience of self-realization. What force is operating to ERASE the difference?
****************
I dont how to express this, this “emptiness or Buddha mind” is not bland, it allows one to experience the dynamic, rich, variety of life, whatever flows to us we accept it, I would say there is far more variety here than for most people. It opens one to experiencing all that we are meant to.MW
Undoubtedly, the chan would say Emptiness erases the difference, if they go along with other Buddhists. But just because the two paths begin walking the same path for a way, doesnt mean they stay on the same road. The path of Emptiness is not the path of Immortality, which preserves uniqueness even as it sustains the collective. The two paths are different, even though they intersect in their early and perhaps even middle stages.
**************************
We could not disagree more. Emptiness allows us to experience all of life, same things, and different things. Its like saying being Wu Ji is boring, limitless, this is a false ideaMW
My reading of the Daodejing is that the Chan have likely latched on to the expressed notion of emptiness – undoubtedly pre-disposed by earlier Buddhist teachings on Emptiness as the greatest virtue beyond all life – but that they did not understood its utility as intended by the Daoists sages.
***********************
Lao Zi promotes living from this empty space, the empty space in the wheel, the empty space of windows and doors give meaning. He to talked so much about detachment. We could not agree more.MW
This is the key difference: in the Daoists view, emptiness is part of the manifest Dao, the primordial ground that is invisibly present and generates the cycles of yin-yang life. It forms a trinity with yin-yang that is permanent and eternal, i.e. cannot be transcended.
****************************
Emptiness is the vehicle life as we were meant to, whether it be Yin-Yang, Five Phases, Eight Forces, seven days of week, etc, etc. and this is what Lao Zi talks about.WM
Achieving emptiness does not remove one from the cycle of life-death-rebirth or remove one from the world; rather it takes one deeper into it as an inescapable part of the Daos Great Wheel turning endlessly. No amount of achievement of Emptiness in meditation can stop that Yin-Yang Wheel from Turning. Rather one cultivates life within a dynamic of true yin and true yang; the wheel thus rolls effortlessly, no bumps.
********************************
Who says it can stop Yin-Yang cycles? Cetainly not me nor buddhists, this is a false statement and then basing argurement do negate the theory.Chan is about living as we were intended to be, Wu Wei, it does not negate or affirm that cycle or that cycle, it accepts things as they come.
WM
The metaphor of the Wheel used by Lao tzu and Chuang tzu makes this perfectly clear;
The wheel gains its utlity from having an empty hub from which the spokes of life are generated. The empty space at the center of the wheel is not in another dimension or the cure for the ills of life and its suffering; rather it is what generates life and moves with the wheel of life as it rolls along.
************************************
Its also the space we live from, it allows us to experience the outer and inner as one inseparable whole.Smiling in the Tao,
bagua
Hello Michael:
Thanks for writing this post. Its a long one so Im going to offer feedback for selective comments.
One of the main challenges is that I do not seek to label and define everything in the universe, you tend to try to do this; from my understanding and I think Chan, and by Chan I mean only the experience of it, not organizations of chan Buddhism, but along with the 1st and 6th patriarchs. So when we talk about “Emptiness”, its a state of consciousness we dont define, as this limits it, its a dynamic awareness, we merge with it, become it and realize this is our true nature (Buddha nature), we experience life as it is in all its variety, this is seeing this as they are, no more, no less; if Fajin or you can not grasp this we will always never get past this points.
MW
Do chan Buddhists seek emptiness for the same reasons that Daoists do?
************************************
I think so, it seems to me Alchemists talk a little different than Lao Zi, my understanding is Lao Zi and Chan are the same.MW
But once Emptiness is achieved, do the Chan advocate “using” emptiness to achieve some other goal?
****************************
This is an important question, I believe this emptiness is the portal to seeing our true nature and that is enough for part one, next is to live it on a daily basis, this is overcoming conditioning and patterns, which becomes easier when one experiences their true nature, and continues their cultivation.MW
But for most others, including the Chan Buddhists, we find that the Emptiness is the supreme goal and that it is ultimately beyond this world – how else could it free us from the Wheel of Life?
**********************************
Your interpretation of emptiness is not correct for me. Let me give you an example, Master Joshua was asked Does a dog have Buddha nature he answered MU, which tom some means no, It means Wu Ji.WM
That if one can grasp the truth of this Emptiness deeply enough, that one will be freed from suffering. It is the First Noble Truth of Buddhism that suffering is caused by the endless cycle of birth-death-rebirth, and thus to end suffering we must get off this endless wheel of incarnation.
********************
I think you are wrong here.
“Attachment” is the cause of suffering, especially attachment to ego and what others try to get you to think your self is, this is the cause of the endless cycle, we need to agree on this or your entire premise is based on false understanding.MW
We are not splitting hairs here, or judging one path over the other; we are clarifying what the process of each is, or claims to be.
*********************************
Well I hope you will agree your presentation on Buddhist basics needs some work.WM
If Bagua disagrees with the First Noble Truth of Buddha, then I think he cannot really be called a Buddhist in its conventional meaning, and would have to found a new neo-Buddhist school that somehow differs or claims to advance beyond Buddhas teachings. Perhaps Bagua should call himself a “Lao Chan-tzu”. :))
**********************************
See my comments above.
In any case, for me “Lao Chan-Zi” works for me, there is a deep harmony that resonates with that.MW
Of course, the Chan Buddhists were rebels and wanted to distance themselves from the Indian teachings of the Buddha as far too complicated and intellectual. (The true meaning of dukka I am told is not suffering, but distraction, as in a mind that is distracted will suffer from ignoring it core focus. All the concerns of someone bent on escaping their overbearing mental faculties but I digress).
******************************
Maybe buddhas has followers made it complex, my feeling from readings is that Bodhidharma, 28th in the lineage form Buddha, was a Buddhist and his followers stayed close to Buddhas teachings, his experience. Buddhism become the predominant religion in china during times, based on emperor’s desires and with it came many sects and variations in mixtures, this is true for Daoists, so many distortions, sexual predators, I think this is true for all traditions.WM
And we need to acknowledge that Chan Buddhism was and is a monastic path in China they felt the need to separate themselves from the world. Hui Neng is a priest and a patriarch; lao tzu and chuang tzu are not, they live in the world with the common folk. My theory is that this monastic and essentially ascetic/sexless separation from the world is what propels their missionary activities, as modern Chan groups are wont to do.
****************************
Well I dont agree entirely. Lao Zi promoted living in the world, but he did leave to the quiet of the mountains. Chaung Zi promoted not living in society, that is was to polluted, he encouraged living away from cities.WM
I speak not only of max/Nan huai chins obvious zeal for saving suffering souls from the wheel of life, but my experience with other chan groups operating in the USA who offer Taoist initiations, a free meal, and a chance to join their chan sect. This missionary work is part of completing their Buddhist mission. This desire is not only an issue of accumulating merit; I wonder if you sit deeply in emptiness as ones metaphysical focus if it doesnt propel one to seek balance in worldly activity, perhaps at core a need for any yin-yang movement?
*******************Why do you teach? Why do you spend much of your time teaching and guiding? Are you just doing your missionary work?
MW
But that it is best to NOT reduce all paths to the same bland Oneness. So here I disagree with Fajin, Bagua, and max: No Path ends up in the same place. Each path is unique, just as each human has a unique body-mind, they will also have a unique spiritual experience of self-realization. What force is operating to ERASE the difference?
****************
Im not sure I can express this clear enough, “emptiness or Buddha mind” is not bland, it allows one to experience the dynamic, rich, variety of life, whatever flows to us we accept it, I would say there is far more variety here than for most people. It opens one to experiencing all that we are meant to.MW
Undoubtedly, the chan would say Emptiness erases the difference, if they go along with other Buddhists. But just because the two paths begin walking the same path for a way, doesnt mean they stay on the same road. The path of Emptiness is not the path of Immortality, which preserves uniqueness even as it sustains the collective. The two paths are different, even though they intersect in their early and perhaps even middle stages.
**************************
We could not disagree more. Emptiness allows us to experience all of life, same things, and different things.MW
My reading of the Daodejing is that the Chan have likely latched on to the expressed notion of emptiness – undoubtedly pre-disposed by earlier Buddhist teachings on Emptiness as the greatest virtue beyond all life – but that they did not understood its utility as intended by the Daoists sages.
***********************
Lao Zi promotes living from this empty space, the empty space in the wheel, the empty space of windows and doors give meaning. He to talked so much about detachment. We could not agree more.MW
This is the key difference: in the Daoists view, emptiness is part of the manifest Dao, the primordial ground that is invisibly present and generates the cycles of yin-yang life. It forms a trinity with yin-yang that is permanent and eternal, i.e. cannot be transcended.
****************************
Emptiness is the space we were meant to live from, whether it be Yin-Yang, Five Phases, Eight Forces, seven days of week, etc, etc. and this is what Lao Zi talks about. Chan does not seek to define it all intellectually, but live it.WM
Achieving emptiness does not remove one from the cycle of life-death-rebirth or remove one from the world; rather it takes one deeper into it as an inescapable part of the Daos Great Wheel turning endlessly. No amount of achievement of Emptiness in meditation can stop that Yin-Yang Wheel from Turning. Rather one cultivates life within a dynamic of true yin and true yang; the wheel thus rolls effortlessly, no bumps.
********************************
Who says it can stop Yin-Yang cycles? Certainly not me nor buddhists, this is a false statement and then you base your argument on this false truth to negate the theory.Chan is about living as we were intended to be, Wu Wei, it does not negate or affirm any cycle, it accepts things as they come.
WM
The metaphor of the Wheel used by Lao tzu and Chuang tzu makes this perfectly clear;
The wheel gains its utlity from having an empty hub from which the spokes of life are generated. The empty space at the center of the wheel is not in another dimension or the cure for the ills of life and its suffering; rather it is what generates life and moves with the wheel of life as it rolls along.
************************************
Its also the space we live from, it allows us to experience the outer and inner as one inseparable whole.Smiling in the Tao,
bagua
Hello Bagua,
I would like to express to you my realization of West and East in this round.
From my understanding, Chan Buddhists cultivate wu instead of working separately on jing, qi, and shen because if one cultivates wu, he cultivates everything. It will sponaneously and naturally align itself in a natural way. I do agree with this, and one can certainly live in his empty space thereby cultivating wu and spontaneously cultivating everything else.
If one cultivates kidney qi, the kidneys will produce more jing. If one cultivates shen, the qi will be in harmony, and as a result jing too. If one cultivats wu, shen, qi, and jing, will naturally be cultivated. I think we agree on this.
I would like to share my research on modern science in the discovery of tachyon energy as I think this would be an excellent time to bridge the gap between modern science and the Eastern arts.
We can see from much research by people like Dr. Lin for example, that jing, which is your like DNA, is in the case of alchemy your hormones. Like, testosterone which is converted into bio-electromagnetism (qi) through certain techniques.
The body’s electro-magnetic current being that post-heaven qi (electricity) and earth’s qi (geo-magnetism) are responsible for this in man.
Shen being light in a higher form of vibration which is why we cannot see it in this dimension.
Now, we get to wu, which is emptiness. We know about the zero point field in that it permeates all physicality with matter in a ratio of being completely empty with there being just enough matter. Only due to vibration, it is manifested. Vibration of the cyclical events, that is, the yin-yang pulsation. This is the movement within stillness and the stillness within movement. Why Buddhists say everything is an illusion to our eyes. It’s a vast field of interconnected energy, which is what matter is too.
So, we have a faster-than-light speed and a slower-than-light speed and lightspeed. Yin, yang, and yuan. Zero point is omnipresent and is faster than light and has infinte energy. Just a cubic cm provides enough energy to equivalent to an atomic bomb. Free energy crisis would be solved.
This is where tachyon comes in. Science says that tachyon particles also travel faster than the speed of light like zero point (wu) and it is omnipresent. There is a different, however, that these tachyon particles are particles and have form, unlike the formless field of zero point.
Another thing is that tachyon particles have everything in them to be manifested in this physicality, that is, they can actually become any form of matter. Wether an atom, a photon, an electron, muon, pion, etc. It literally tranforms itself into this slower-than-light world. Also, tachyon COMES from zero point (wu) and is the bridge between the faster-than-light world and slower-than-light world.
Now, because the nature of the fater-than-light world is to manifest itself in all possible ways of physicality on this physical plane, tachyon is generated into something only due to intent or an inner desire. This intent to create is not naturally allowing things to happen, as would be if a freequency is tranformed into another frequency like sun qi absorbed and formed into useable qi by us humans through our intent. The communication occurs on the formless (faster-than-light) plane and tachyon is then actually CREATED from something of formlessness into this physicality.
Another thing about tachyon. Scientists have also found tachyon to naturally align balance and harmony in any kind of chaos or disharmony in any particular field or incoherent pattern in this physicality (slower-than-light). So, more tachyon = more order. Or, less tachyon = more disorder. Why? What do scientists not know that Daoists know? That the next stepping down point in the slower-than-light world is qi. More qi = more harmony!
What I am trying to say, is that, if we cultivate this wu through Chan techniques, like living in the empty space, we naturally form more tachyon from the formless field of empty space. This vaccuum or dipole, as it is called, will manifest into tachyon which steps down into this physicality. Through Chan awareness, we get more tachyon and we are naturally creating more harmony in any inchorent pattern or disorder/chaos.
Not tachyon directly, but other frequencies that we attune to more to intensify that part of the process. Eg. earth’s magnetism is already the correct frequencies that are bones and dantian are designed to absorb, so we do not need tachyon in that case. Tachyon has no frequency on any spectrum and is in fact, the mother of all frequencies on this physicality.
Chan is about going directly towards tachyon to bring balance and harmony by cultiating zero point in order to do that. Daoist inner alchemy aims at doing that too, but first using frequencies that are available to us from nature and bringing them and our essences to fuse into a pearl.
Then, when we do step up slowly into the faster-than-light world with this pearl, we do get to wu and work on the tachyon field. We are just following the macrocosm this way by working the reverse way going slower-than-light to faster-than-light or yin to yang, internal to external, whatever you like to call it.
So, clearly from this, we can see that both paths, and I think that all spiritual paths, aim at somehow going to the empty space (wu), they just have different ways of getting there. One can go there directly (Chan), or one can reverse the stepping down into physicality (Dao). It’s up to you which one you want to do.
I think that reversing the process as done in Dao, allows greater freedom because you have the CHOICE of transforming what is in nature into what you want. Eg. You want stronger bones, look to the earth’s magnetism (qi), you want a beautiful face, just massage with your palms, you want to work with emotions, just smile them away, you want better sexual performance, practice the big draw, etc., etc., etc. Everything is already in the correct frequency, we just need the knowledge of the masters who preceeded us into how we do it.
Reversing the process is just following the Dao (laws of nature). So, this is just how the universe operates, it steps down into this physicality, so we just have to reverse it, which is why I think the Daoist alchemical path is about the highest freedom.
Bagua, to you it may seem like yet another big distortion, I am not speaking of immortality and soul completion, I am just saying that this allows one greater freedom because he has unlimited CHOICE, just as many choices as there is yins and yangs.
Through Chan, there is CHOICE too, but only about how to cultivate wu, wether you should use koans, mantras, etc. Now, I understand that Chan techniques do have an effect, and they do work on all levels, because merging with the empty space allows greater harmony and balance to manifest on all levels, but they don’t allow CHOICE on shaping things into what you want them to become. Life is about CHOICE. CHOICE is freedom in itself, and this is what the essence of Daoism is, FREEDOM.
I hope that this essay that I have been working on, as an expression of my realization, can help not just you, but others as well.
Smiles away,
FajinNice essay, Fajin. I think it is very important to bridge modern science and spiritual science.
I am familiar with tachyon products and theory. I like their vibration, very subtle, but very clean and pure – as advertised, because it allegedly has no preconceived frequency.
Whether their theory is correct probably remains to be further explored. Like all scientific hypotheses, they often turn out to be superceded by later, better theories and more developed applied sciences. I think that Tachyons – which are not accepted by mainstream physicists – are probably another way of describing mainstsream theory of neutrinos, massless particles which fly thorugh space without interacting with anything until someting large enough or we could say with “dense enough mass or will” can capture their energy.
Neutrinos are emitted from the center of stars, and I believe the equivalent force in Daoist alchemy would be related to “yuan jing” or original essence. I belive that the ability to crystallize yuan jing is one of the unique aspects of Daoist inner alchemy not addressed by other types of meditation, and is the fundamental essence of the immortality process.
This idea of “particle-less existence” may be relevant to this discussion on emptiness. i think both Chan and Dao are focused on human experience of very subtle states beyond the measureable particles of the post natla realm.
And both would agree that words cannot dfescribe the inner realities experienced in meditation, which makes all discussion frustrating to some extent by definition, since there are no objective methods to test the different states that might be cultivated by different methods.
Nonetheless, I believe discussion of methods is useful if progress is to be made in the spiritual sciences – it alerts others to new possibilities of what is being explored. And ultimately it will inspire bridges to be built between material science (what I call external alchemy) and inner alchemy.
I see that Bagua is fatigued by this discussion, feeling that I am discussing traditional buddhists that I have encountered or read and Bagua saying that the words used by those other Buddhists do not have the same meaning for him, he doesn’t care about the words, only experience counts. I agree only experience counts.
But I also think its important to use words in ways that are useful; that is part of the skill of living and communicating. And in general, I don’t find the Buddhist use of the word Emptiness to have any identifiable meaning. Bagua uses it to mean that its not really empty, but a door to yin-yang, five phases, etc. So if by cultivating emptiness he means cultivating yin-yang and five phases, and inner will (yi), then we really are in agreement.
But I doubt that is the meaning of Emptiness in the Chinese Chan tradition, otherwise they would support cultivating jng-chi-shen-wu instead of wu only. I believe they are using it in a particular way, although clearly the meaning has changed after crossing the Pacific Ocean and coming to America. Every religion transmutes when it changes culture. It becomes whatever the new believes want it to be in their life. Which is good, I call that evolution.
Take for example Max, from a different chinese chan school, who clearly has expressed that the self is illusory and the goal is to realize that, not to cultivate yin-yang balance or five phases. This is traditional Buddhist view.
I think the meaning of Emptiness in this discussion gets really stretched when you try to claim that it means cultivating free will expression. If there is will present, then surely one is not empty; one is in a state of willing something.
To match them, you would have to define Emptienss as a state of Potential Will, i.e. not really empty, but actually full of all possibility and containing all essences. If that’s what is meant, I think it would be better to drop the term Emptiness and just call it Infinite Potential Will. To most people that would be much clearer – if that is what Bagua means to say.
Gajin is coming to the same conclusion from a different direction, that different methods use the same starting point (wu) but end up with different levels of free will. I think he may be onto something there.
Except that I don’t translate Wu as emptiness. The term for Emptienss in the Daodejing is Xu, (hsu), not Wu.
The alchemical process is not one of cultivating jing-chi-shen-xu. Wu in Wuji means “not known” or “supreme mystery” in my translation, and other scholars, like George Moeller, translate it as “non-presence”, which I think is also accurate.So when Chan Buddhists (or Daoists) sit in meditation and empty their xin/heart mind, to me they have NOT achieved a state of Wu or wuji. They are likely initialy in kong, post natal emptiness – a glass that has been emptied of water, and thus the space inside the physical glass is now empty. If they stay three too long that is what has the danger of becoming dead tree zen, no chi flow.
Or they have attained xu, pre-natal emptiness, i.e. they have crossed the neutral or empty zone between the physical plane and the formless dimension that mirrors it. But that xu, in my understanding of the Daoist use of these terms, is nowhere near wu. Wu or wuji is very very very difficult to attain, if it is attainable. How can Being attain non-presence? As I said before, I don’t believe this is even an option for an individual cultivator – it is a collective question that all of humanity, if it could focus its collective mind, might ask. But as long as youare still a human being, I don’t think you can become a non-being. By definition.
If we accepted these gradations of the meaning of Emptiness (kong, xu, wu), I think that would eliminate the broad generalizations being made about the Chan state of Emptiness. And allow a way of describing Emptiness not as the absolute goal, but a transitional space that offers greater freedom because you are less defined.
IF you use that neutral/empty space to make choices from. I think Bagua uses it that way. But I asked a student of mine, who had spent dozens of years meditating at zen centers (before he realized he was stagnating and began learning Dao) – I asked him if the many zen teachers he had sutdied under ever talked aobut their purpose in life, or the importance of making life choices.
He paused, and replied, “I have never heard any zen teacher talk about having a purpose in life”. They only talk about becoming One with Everything.
Whenyou become One with Everything, you have given up all free will. The One has everything, including your identity. You no longer exist. Only the One exists. That is the goal of Oneness. It is different than the goal of harmonizing the One with the Many (five phaes), or achieving balance amongst the Many (yin-yang). In the latter you accept that the Many is not going to give up its right to existence, that the Many will refuse to dissolve back into the One. The One is their primordial parent, but it is not the endpoint of their evolution.
This is why I keep saying that the Dao is about the Whole evolving in unique process, it NEVER eradicates its memory or its unique process of One generating Many Experiences. If the Many at death dissolved into a common state of oneness (or Emptiness) as the spiritual goal, then what would have been the point – or the learning – of becoming the Many/manifest? To hold either true Oneness or Emptiness as an ultimate goal or state is thus antii-evolutionary, its anti the processual nature of the Life Force. In this spectrum, immortality is the highest level of relationship between the One and the Many.
I don’t believe this is the message of Chan Buddhism. If it is, I would like to know which Buddhists are saying this and where. If they are saying it, it sounds to me that like Bagua, they are more Taoist than traditional Buddhist. Prof. Moeller says Chan Buddhism is a combination of Taoism and Buddhism. But if you keep reducing down the taditional Buddhism portion of “no self”, at some point it makes sense to just be a Taoist.
At least that is how I see it.Thanks for smiling all the way through another long exposition…..and hope that there was a tleast one useful nugget to be found in it for you.
michael
Hi Fajin:
Very interesting post, science is not my stength so I can not comment on whether I feel it is accuarate or not. I have just a few comments.
I have practiced Taoist alchemy and basic Qi Gong, I have studied Chan some, so I speak from experience, when it comes to Chan, one needs to practice it to understand it, its not a theory.
Faj
I think that reversing the process as done in Dao, allows greater freedom because you have the CHOICE of transforming what is in nature into what you want. Eg. You want stronger bones, look to the earth’s magnetism (qi), you want a beautiful face, just massage with your palms, you want to work with emotions, just smile them away, you want better sexual performance, practice the big draw, etc., etc., etc. Everything is already in the correct frequency, we just need the knowledge of the masters who preceeded us into how we do it.
************************************************
My experience is when you begin or path or follow a path you no longer really have choice or freedom, you are following a formula, method or path. you are following jing-qi-shen-wu, this is your path, no choice and no freedom, this is your pathway, this is how you define your journey.Chan does not define the journey, we live it momement to momement, we attune to it, to immerse oneself in everyday life, its magical and it is what all masters describe.
fajin
Reversing the process is just following the Dao (laws of nature). So, this is just how the universe operates, it steps down into this physicality, so we just have to reverse it, which is why I think the Daoist alchemical path is about the highest freedom.
***************************
I dont think you perceive your shen is complete now, there is no linear progression, this is the shell, physical body, we are early-later heaven combined, simultaneously, flowing in patterns of life, cycles of time and space. its with an open consiousness can one live it, or “dont know mind, empty mind, wu wei” does one realize this.as the tao teh ching advices:
Know the offpring but stat with the mother.
Fajin
Through Chan, there is CHOICE too, but only about how to cultivate wu, wether you should use koans, mantras, etc. Now, I understand that Chan techniques do have an effect, and they do work on all levels, because merging with the empty space allows greater harmony and balance to manifest on all levels, but they don’t allow CHOICE on shaping things into what you want them to become. Life is about CHOICE. CHOICE is freedom in itself, and this is what the essence of Daoism is, FREEDOM.
******************
The major choice is the desire to realize one’s true nature.Alchemy does not shape or create anything new, it reflects or attunes to what is normal and natural, to what already exists in this universe.
We are free to decide a path, but you desire to flow in the tao, this is not a choice, you now MUST follow this path, do you see this?
AS I have always said, the alchemists here beleive you need to create something new, that you are incomplete now. Chan beleives you are imcomplete, you just need to realize it. You beleive there is somewhere else to go, Chan beleives the “Here and Now” is the immortal and eternal world. It is true alchemy to know and live each momenet here as Heaven in Earth.
I think you are very knowledgeable and make an excellent contribution to the communication of Tao Alchemy, which has been sorely lacking up to this 21st century. I practice both Dao Alchemy and Chan, for me the go together, each has a specific focus, like practicing Tai Chi Chuan or Eight Pieces of Braocade or Yi Jin Jing or Animal Forlocs, etc.
Smiling in the Tao,
bagua
” When the term emptiness is used in Taoist texts, it refers to emptiness not as a static state of nihilism, but as an active, dynamic source of creativity.
It is the emptiness of the cup that allows it to hold the liquid “.
– Kenneth Cohen
Bagua:
My experience is when you begin or path or follow a path you no longer really have choice or freedom, you are following a formula, method or path. you are following jing-qi-shen-wu, this is your path, no choice and no freedom, this is your pathway, this is how you define your journey.
Chan does not define the journey, we live it momement to momement, we attune to it, to immerse oneself in everyday life, its magical and it is what all masters describe.Bagua,
I think this thinking on “no freedom once you choose a path” is a mistaken understanding of the alchemical process. Its why Tao is often called the Pathless Path. Following the principles of the life force and cultivating a relationshiop with it does not limit your freedom of choice, it amplifies it.The alchemical formulas are not determining your path; they are principles/processes/tools used to expand your freedom. The Taoist texts have numerous references to “mastering one’s destiny” rather than simply following it, which is the path of following post-natal only, i.e. whatever manifests you accept it. That is a different level of cultivation, a different direction of choice.
that accepting and allowing is the first stage of inner alchemy, bringing yourself into harmony with the existing cycles of destiny; but it is very different from cultivating a conscious relationship with inner levels of the process and shaping what manifests. That is shaping your own destiny. That is communicating to the lifeforce what you need and the Life Force responds and creates it.
From what I hear from you and others about Chan practice, this element of cultivating free will consicously to shape the life force is missing from that practice. That may not stop individuals from exercising their free will, but it is not part of that training.
michael
Hi Michael:
Thanks for your insights.
It seems to me alchemists follow a path or method set forth, if we believe Wei Po Yang is the first to present a detailed method of alchemy, from a documented standpoint, alchemists seek to follow his formula (or variations of it),his formula is based on the I Ching, as a process of the way the universe fuctions, it is attuning to this process, if you want to call this “conscious shaping” then I agree.
When you say you are consciously shaping relationships with inner levels of processes, what is leading or driving you to select one inner process over another? What is is you are following as you choose to shape this or that?
Thank You,
bagua
Michael,
I have read about neutrinos as well and know about this. My purpose for mentioning science this time was to somehow identify what it is that’s going on when one is in an empty state. Let me use your example about an empty cup of water. This is kong emptiness. But really this emptiness is as you may say an illusion because it is not empty. There will always be a certain ratio of matter and energy (zero point).
Eg. You take water out of the cup. OK, there’s no water, no solids, but there is gas. It will still be full of something. This is why I you changed Mantak’s formulas to not go out of the body, because it is just as empty inside the body as outside. But in the body, you can create portholes with dantians as a link to the higher dimension, ie. early heaven. Now, I know Bagua will say we are early heaven as well and we do absorb early heaven frequencies, but I mean intensifying that part of the natural process.
Now, because science is still in kindergarten, we cannot know for sure what’s what. But we do know that there are devices that can be CHANGED to become stronger magnets that attract more tachyons. Wether these tachyons are neutrinos from proto-neutron stars or not, these “massless” particles do step down into the slower-than-light world and DO create more balance and harmony within an incoherent pattern of ANY living organism. That’s what I think Chan Buddhists do, it must somehow access these “non-frequencies” and this creates wu-wei with the particles able to step down into anything on the physical plane which allows one to do something with much less effort.
Of course, the so-called kong state of mind comes first and the mind is empty of thought then shoot for the other emptiness. Why I say empty, is because these particles are empty of frequency and empty of mass and step down into any frequency making anything effortless if the magnet (Chan Buddhist) is a strong enough magnet for these particles, whatever they may be. I think this is a likely hypothesis. I know that words cannot express this experience, but there is something going on in a Chan practitioner, this seems very likely.
If we accept this, then you can say that there is no free will, but there is also no free will needed because you have become “One with all Frequencies”. Going back to Michael’s answer on when he asked his Zen student.
About wuji, our origin. If I was to again bridge modern science with Daoist cosmology, then I would have to say that wuji are black holes. I know, I know, yet another hypothesis at a time like this when science is still in its early stages. Stephen Hawking’s 30+ years into black holes say that they are able to emit colour and sound radiation creating this here density, which is very likely and is being accepted by many people.
Black holes can spin and reverse-spin like the vortexes in the dantians that are portholes between dimensions, or xu (early heaven emptiness). Black holes are known to gobble everything up including light itself, and if what Mr. Hawking says is true, which fits in to Eastern traditions about spinning chakras and dantians as well, then black holes are the origin. When they “gobble” everything up in one dimension, they release it in another, making them a bridge or link between them. I would say that this is wuji and cannot really attain this, but can use a similar process to go to xu.
So, using black holes to absorb pre-heaven colour and sound frequencies in the body is going to xu (a different emptiness in this case). The best food for the immortal child, to feed it until it becomes big enough and responsible enough to go out there and eat some post-heaven qi from stars, planets, sun, moon, and any other frequencies. Atleast, this is my hypothesis based on modern science.
Now, about choice, I would have to say that when following the Daoist alchemical path, which really cannot be called a path because it is pathless as Michael is saying, you have an unlimited amount of free will because you are allowed the choice of using any frequencies in nature, by doing so, you are allowed to “simulate” what nature is doing, but the nature within your own body. Nature (macrocosmos) does everything in its desire to manifest itself on all levels, in all dimensions, and in every possible frequency. Following nature in this way allows the practitioner to do the same, or the option to do the same.
Regards,
FajinLatest scientific discoveries mention that black holes DO produce energy as well, meaning it is absorbing everything, as well our experiences and they gives ‘something’ back.
I see it very simple, we feed the life force and in return it gives back; so it does make a difference what kind of food/information we produce, it gives us a lot of responsability towards ourselves and the life force. We gain free will through practice to be able to act responsable. Unfortunately mainly it gets crap to eat, wonder what it will throw up as response.
Possible the nearest we can get as humans is a feeling of total oneness for periods in our life and it is just a wild guess, but my feeling is that humans are not able to contain the information that is held by the ‘oneness’, we would die insteadly – overload.
Icarus died trying touching the sun. Although he was warned not come too close, he couldn’t resist, so do we. We have to accept that we are food, we are not supposed to become the sun, without food the sun would die and without sun we die.Be honored that we are given the opportunity to be the best food… maybe some ego’s can’t bare the idea of being a delicious shrimp, but maybe you can grow yourself to be a juicy steak.
Smiles
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.