October 8, 2006 at 5:52 am #18455
> On the whole, I respect you and understand that you are happy with system you have created, but theres no need to pass speculative judgments.
You still want be Mr. Nice Guy, even as you pass on a litany of speculative judgements about others while claiming not to. And you repteatedly pass yourself off as an authority, when you have NO CREDENTIALS established whatsoever other than your proclamations about your personal search.
>The energy created from the Healing Dao practices are largely sensory in nature. Subjectively speaking, practitioners may experience all kinds of energy, colors and “buzzing.” Point of fact, you can experience any of these things by taking drugs.
First of all, let’s not generalize about ‘Healing Dao”. You did not study any of the basics, fusion, healing love, or iron shirt with me – because I wasn’t teaching those at Big Indian. Like many students, perhaps you came into the Lesser unprepared and didn’t get it. Perhaps it appeared inconsistent to you because you didn’t have a previous five shen training consistent with my class.
Second of all, let’s not generalize YOUR experience of the first One Cloud formula onto others who have restored their health, found inner peace, and numerous other benefits. That formula is designed to harmonize post-natal chi. Your judgement is that no one is getting enlightened from it, when it is just designed to a be a foundation. It delivers to many what is promised – you simply wanted some thing different.
>My experience with Healing Dao was my experience. All of the senior instructors I’ve met and studied under were still searching for more effective methods and were very open about this with me.
Sounds exactly like David Shen and anyone interested in growing….a meaningless point. The other reality is that neidan requires deep long term committment which not all healing dao instructors were willing to put into it. Many of these instructors were exposed to David Shen, yet few chose to follow him.
>The idea that, because Kan and Li and the other formulas have been written about in various texts, proves they are authentics is just silly.
The point is not to try to prove authenticity, which can only be established by each adept that develops the skill to make them work. The point was to demonstrate how fraudulent your claim was that Mantak Chia made them up. This is not character assassination of you, Sean – it is pointing out what you said is blatantly false and is a character assassination of Chia. The more these falsities accrue, your claimed expertise fades. I recommend in the future you stick to selling what works for you.
>As you yourself told me, Chia was never actually trained in these methods; and what is taught today is basically a good guess at best.
This is another blatantly false distortion, that let me know that either your ability to listen or your memory is weak, or both. What I said is exactly what I’ve clarified previously on this forum: Chia told me he was trained experientially up through the Greater Kan & Li, and given the description on the rest. He certainly had a connection to One Cloud’s lineage, and those beings were clearly pushing his work in the West.
>David left the Healing Dao because you and Chia started teaching practices he taught you without permission; surprise.
That is pure b.s. to include me in their struggle. David’s falling out was with Mantak Chia over numerous battles they had at Tao Garden, which led to his selling his condo there.
>And after decades of practice Mantak himself has not achieved a meaningful level of achievement that would warrant the title of master in any line of teh Dao that I know.
Another judgement by Master Sean. One of many reasons why I avoid the Master Game. Chia has hundreds of grateful students that would “judge” otherwise. Even traditionally, master-student is a relationship, not an objective measurable quantity to be determined by others. A more correct statement would be to say, ‘Chia is not my master, based on what I need from a Master”.
I have my differences with Chia, but his energy is certainly very powerful when he focuses it. If anything, he is victim of his ambition to use his power to grow something worthwhile too far too fast. That stretched him thin, and led to problems. His function in building the large community you profited handsomely from is a kind of mastery you will not commonly find in China or Thailand. There are many kinds of mastery. I am personally deeply grateful to Chia and have let go my anger at what I perceive were his mistakes. It is up to each of us to shape the reality we want to grow rather than getting stuck on other’s failures.
>Perhaps there is something to the methods you teach, that’s just not my experience.
Finally a possible admission that you haven’t really studied with me enough to make the earlier judgements you passed about being “a money-making scam”. Maybe you would benefit from reading the testimonials posted before claiming to know more than the people who write them – benefits that feel just as real to them as the ones you claim to feel with a new teacher in Thailand.
The assumptions I find most questionable and naive in your postings is beliff that David Shen is going to grant you immortality, and that no one in the Healing Tao has achieved it. That exhibiting some particular abilty with chi is the proof of immortality or even enlightenment, “since we have nothing else as proof”.
What has possibly led you to believe that David Shen is immortal, or what would qualify you to make this judgement about him – or anyone else? If David hasn’t achieved immoraltiy after 20 years of hard searching, is that failure by your objective standards?
Your final judgement is to assume that I am criticizing you because “my dvd empire is threatened”. “Empire” here is of course another judgemental word. Did you really think this through?
Do you really think that I felt financially threatened by the prospect of David’s $7,500. basic retreat underming my mission to share with the public what I’ve learned from qigong and inner alchemy?
Sean, there are plenty of family or closely held lineage, traditional teachers of various qi arts in China that will work only one on one with students. As you note, this method of transmission is threatened by lack of interested modern day chinese students.
Is this the future model of transmission likely to succed in the West? There are enormous financial and cultural-linguistic hurdles to be overcome for westerers seeking that kind of relationship.
As these Chinese teachers take on more westerners, their model will be forced to shift to accmmodate what is needed by their students. I think its great those opportunities exist for the few willing to pursue them. But its not the future of qigong and neidan in the West.
Enjoy your journey to living Without Judgement –
its a hard path, I’m still a neophyte myself :).
MichaelOctober 8, 2006 at 6:19 am #18456
I just found out i have been censored and a significant intelligent and not offensive letter was just deleted because it offered some points of reflection on some disturbing truths micheal??? i would like to see that letter back in the open if the tao is so exceptionally broad let people thik with their head. thanks
i can of course post it again but im sleepy, been up all night following the forum:) so please indulge us.October 8, 2006 at 6:31 am #18458
Just because there is judging Qi around, still keep it constructive but also would be nice to reflect on the things that those judgments arise from at the risk of repeatimg myself lets talk more about this…
Micheal says All secrets will come out eventually…very opinionable, but that’s what we like to believe and what they like us to believe maybe… anyway even if the outer form of them come out who will achieve them? Micheal point out that the formulas are in the texts, yes the drawing and descriptions, but with the descriptions also come the description of the expected results, that NO ONE in the HT or UT has achieved, it prooves the point that the formulas are made up, because anyone that read chinese can then be a master and teach them simply making up their supposed meaning based on some side notes to the text, point is they would not work because there is much more behind the drawing.
Let us remember that Chia started out teaching immortal practices to create a real solid, visibe foetus and immortal body.
In the back of his books it described the amazing levels you could achieve by practicing, he describe at the level of lesser Kan li your body would shrink and then dissolve in to rainbow and then you would live only nails…and then daylight ascension… and more, that you could project your foetus and everybody could see it because it was solid, he even use to tell his dream was to ascend in daylight in front of Tv wroldwide! hey those were the Hey Days… i like many others were in the classes, i even got some of those magic moments on tape!
Did anyone in the HT and UT actually achieved anything like this??? this were the ORIGINAL PROMISES and PURPOSES lets not forget it.
Is it or is it not true that because of failure of this dream Chia himself, Winn, Ron, Gunther, Juan Li, Navarro, and all the old dogs at first kept searching out of the system that did not fulfilled their dreams and eventually seems like they gave it up, and now when someone is trying to rekindle the flame of a hope is bashed as Kung Fu novels.
What if the dream is real? what if Sean and many of David Students have seen is real did they all Hallucinated do they all have issues???
Is everybody too afraid to dream the dream again??? wouldn’t be worthy to pay for it?? and don’t you think that 20 years of HT costed you more even if just in term of the precious time and Dream-energy you put in to it??? what if with lets say 10.000 you could actually achieve what originally those prctices were intended for and witness someone who did achieve it???
Again just food for tought i think would be nice to work together and be more open to certain possibilities, and admit that it is Daoism we speak about, where achievement of concrete results count.October 8, 2006 at 2:44 pm #18460
I’m sorry Arath’s post was deleted. It really had some fair questions. Anyway, for those intertested in trying something new, the Denmark training is about the price of one of Michael’s workshops; it’s a really great group of caring individuals and a wonderful practice.
As for Michael’s comments, I find them a bit irrational; I’ll leave him alone before the poor guy loses his cool. It is important for people to get the full picture of the history and teachings of the Healing Tao and I would encourage those like Arath to continue to share their views.
Best, SeanOctober 8, 2006 at 3:56 pm #18462
Max: “I would say all of the students taking KL are not ready. ”
Why would you say that? Based on theory, or based on your experience with every one of us who have taken the courses?
The Kan and Li experience has for me been deeply tranformative, and has allowed me to not only become conscious of deep nature, but to “play” with it. It is a very tricky and elusive practice, especially Greater when learning to come into resonance with different layers of Earth, Sun and Moon. But, it is a beautiful and marvellous practice.
ChrisOctober 8, 2006 at 6:04 pm #18464
Very presumptious to assume ALL students are not ready to take Kan & Li.
Just as it is presumptious of anyone to assume they know what effect the practises have on people.
It is best to speak for oneself, and not extrapolate out, projecting one’s own experience ( or lack of it ) onto others.
When I did K&L I was ready for it. Just as I am each time I do it.October 8, 2006 at 7:16 pm #18466
Let me agree with you Max, Nobody is entirely prepared, for the journey is unknown, as it takes courage and openness to explore within yourself and walk an unknown path.
Some people like or need to be guided by a Master, some take personal responsability which surely sharpens your inner wisdom, and it surely forces you to look into your own heart and lap.
The HT system is not perfect, it can not be because it is a living system, it grows and changes, has flaws and difficulties, very human and very recognizable. It took me years to understand this because I wanted answers and results until I figured I am the only master in my universe and I am the only driver and I have to drive it myself yet with a bit of help.
If you seek superpowers HT is definite not the right place, it is a community where people learn to take personal responsability.
If you seek perfection HT is not a place for you… think of this: Accepting the flaws is a greater achievement than following a perfect path…October 9, 2006 at 2:03 am #18468
I delete multiple postings, especially when they have the same title, unless it is an obvious corection attempt.
Put your ideas into one posting, and wait for a response. Otherwise people don’t know if you have made a mistake and posted multiple times. This is standard operating procedure to reduce spam postings.
MichaelOctober 9, 2006 at 2:36 am #18470
-Do verified acts of Chia copying other masters’ work reflect a high state of spiritual advancement?
You are quick to judge from afar.
I asked Mantak Chia for his side of the story, and he says that previously he and Bok (of Pranic Healing) had been friends, and made an agreement to exchange methods and would allow each to incorporate the others practices. Later things got less friendly, when Bok’s student who was a lawyer (stephen somebody) was the one who decided to push the issue into court. It was a hopelessly doomed effort – nobody can copyright the use of color frequencies in healing. Bok got them from someone else in the first place – Chia felt it both public use type information and published by agreement. So the case was dismissed after a few minor changes were made to the text.
But your question is reallly, “should we dismiss a teacher entirely if he does something of low virtue?
David Shen put out a video that had women and men sticking a sharp edged metal pipe into the anus and vagina, part of his early very irreponsible mixing of yogic and taoist sexual techniques. Should he be dismissed forever for his low virtue?
-Why Iron Shirt is the part of HT system?
At Dao Mtn. it is being taught safely, without excess packing. Why shouldn’t it be? Rooting and structure are essential. I’ve completely modified the postures in my Qigong Fundametnals 3 &4 to integrate the deep bone channels more powerfully with the eight extra vessels work of Fusion.
Other than that, I have published my improvements to the process and insert a handout in all books sold with instructions to modify the packing process.
-Why is the original book “Taoist Secrets of Love” still being sold?
Its publishers choose to sell it under copyright agreements signed 20 years ago.
While it caused problems for a small number of students who did not do the preparatory work, it also caused a revolutioni in sexual consciousness in the West that was badly needed.
-You said many times the formulas taught on HT USA are your personal interpretations. Does it still stand?
I have personalized my interpretation of every practice I’ve learned – that is my way of integrating and refining them to a higher level. I am not a “monkey see, monkey do” type of teacher.
In the beginning its necessary to practice something as taught. When you advance to a certain level, you can take the choice to innovate. That is how change happens.
Alchemy is an experimental science – and no one I know has experimented more with these formulas than myself. In my opinion, I made them more powerful, easier to learn, more integrated, and more profound, with a clearer interpretation of the underlying cosmology.
Let me know if you have further questions.
michaelOctober 9, 2006 at 6:26 pm #18472
W3RD 2D TURD!October 10, 2006 at 12:00 am #18474
I have found Michael’s teaching extremeley valuable. Both his interpretations of the kan and li formulas and the basics. Taoist secrets of love was the first book I read about the practice of taoist meditation. I learned a ton from the book and consider it very valuable as an introduction, and I think most of its methods work great. I am very happy and satisfied with everything that I have learned from Michael.October 10, 2006 at 2:37 pm #18476
Mx> -Why is the original book “Taoist Secrets of Love” still being sold? >
MW> Its publishers choose to sell it under copyright agreements signed 20 years ago.
While it caused problems for a small number of students who did not do the preparatory work, it also caused a revolution in sexual consciousness in the West that was badly needed. >
Obviously the public is clamoring for deeper and more difficult answers in this area.
The HT’s published HL books probably represent best efforts for their time and cultural setting, and moved the cultural conversation forward. However, the higher priority standard (and what is clearly prominent right now) is whether they are sound theoretically and practically towards students’ health – and they are not.
Several reasons, areas in which the HL books are lacking, off the top (that everyone who has been around for any length of time knows):
1. Sexual cultivation is dangerous and difficult. It just is. Sure, some people it’ll click for, but many more will get eaten up by it. It’s just a high pleasure & suffering practice area.
2. The HL books lack the deeper teachings, specifically: sufficient emphasis of Stillness. Without that, it’s a recipe for suffering in the long term (not the short term). You (MW) have taken this up as “the neutral space” in your more recent teachings.
3. Sufficient warning & remedies re: jing stagnation (physical, psychological, spiritual) as a common long term consequence of incorrect practice.
I’d agree that the original HL books should be discontinued at some point (and there’s good arguement for “as soon as possible”), and replaced with better works.
I also think that it’s unrealistic to expect perfection from a single first attempt at publishing books on jing gong. Just looking at the facts, this clarification takes generations. Chia has gone through his cycle, and Winn pushed forward from there. Along comes this generation pushing for further development. We’re seeing the usual angst and what-not from one generation to the next.October 10, 2006 at 11:25 pm #18478
My mom worked for the lady of Aurora press around the time of the book coming. Mom would come back with storys of this crazy lady. She also met L. Ron Hubbard at a party Aurora was having back in the day before he got big. I remember seeing the book in the house when I was like 7 or 8.October 11, 2006 at 8:42 am #18480
>3. Sufficient warning & remedies re: jing stagnation (physical, psychological, spiritual) as a common long term consequence of incorrect practice.
I agree, Trunk, an updated sexual practice text is in order.
But meanwhile, the problem of stagnation at jing level for some practitioners is easily solved with proper foundation work. This is NOT solved in my opinion by greater stillness practice – which most westerners hvae difficulty with.
It is much easier for most to solve it with superior yin-yang moving energy technology.
The wudang orbit method solves the problem in my opinion.
The problem is trying to force the jing to move into chi – the forcing happens from the head, very common amongst males, and especially amongst those using old Chia techniques for the orbit. So the sexual energy moves, but it doesn’t really transmute into chi, or does so only partially. It gets stuck instead somewhere else in the body in some people, and they don’t know how to move it.
The wudang orbit solves this problem because to spin the pearl, you have to shift your inner will to the navel center. That shift s it from the outer will in the head. Then the spinning breaks up any blockages when you finally begin to move it through the orbit. The spinning also mixes the blood and the chi, dissolving any jing stagnation.
This, combined with using more testical breathing and less “big draw” with force, makes the sexual practice totally safe in my opinion – and the experience of my students, based on feedback.
However, I would not attempt to practice the wudang orbit from written materials, there are safeguards to the method that are given orally on Qigong Fundamentals 2 audio.
To you health,
michaelOctober 12, 2006 at 3:15 am #18482
probably the most effective method in that book is the cold draw, and still is the most effective method out of all (for male sexual cultivation purposes)
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