Home › Forum Online Discussion › Practice › Stillness, alchemical formulas..Bruce Lee et Cetra…
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August 14, 2006 at 4:18 pm #16452snowlionParticipant
For the past few months I have read a barage of post here who is correct in their philosophy of meditation, I believe this mirrors the arguments of religon, or politics-it’s freedoom of choice quite simply. There is no right or wrong path it’s whats right for you, especially the part on “freedom”.
The late great Bruce lee was surely before his time and I will post a article from way back in his view point. My expierence has been that Alchemical formulas, Meditations & even forms they serve a purpose for the time being and you will move on. And then you will return and so on & so on…you can go very deeply in any aspect, stillness, inner smile, Five Phases- Taiji however they choose to work with you.
Stylistic names of techniques, sects, etc..really don’t matter; what matters is if you enjoy them, can go very deeply with that process and make it useful for you, can you utilize it for the good.
Personlally I use stillness as a “launching pad” for my processes and find it useful, but my energy field has responded very well to the Alchemical processes & I see where it goes daily. I never plan, or prearrange my practice I believe when one has a understanding they need to be very spontaneous and work with their field.
The Dao practices were not developed to be gobbled up and to be moved on like a 5 course meal they were developed for long lasing change, which also requires total commitment to them daily.
Below is the article:
When Bruce Lee died in 1973, he did not leave this world without making an impact. Beyond his success as a martial arts actor, which was transforming enough to the movie industry in bringing the martial arts genre to life, he was a teacher. The man who played the role of Kato in The Green Hornet and starred in four and a half films was a martial arts instructor, and morehe was a philosopher. He majored in philosophy at the University of Washington. A man who devoured books on a wide range of subjects, from Eastern philosophy to gung fu to psychotherapy, he yearned for knowledge. As he put it, he wanted to express himself, and to express himself honestly. In order to express himself honestly, he had to know himself well. The idea should remind us of Socrates admonition, Know thyself.
All knowledge ultimately means self knowledge, said Lee in an interview. For Lee, to be a martial artist means also to be an artist of life.
In Lees pursuit of personal perfection, he walked a life of deep philosophy that urged him to seek answers and improvement. Bruce Lee was perhaps the best martial artist because he made himself that way, because he sought answers and resolutions. What set him apart from other martial artists was his understanding of the human dynamics of change. Most traditional martial artists taught a style of fighting that was set in stonethey gave a fixed set of moves and attitudes that defined their specific form of fighting. It reflects a very old form of thought given in Western philosophy in the words of Plato who believed in another realm of eternally static perfection to which we must mold ourselves. In the traditional view, change is imperfect; perfection is sought by denying change any relationship to the deeper, metaphysical reality.
Denying this paradigm, Lee took an objective look at his life, and his art, and sought to improve himself. His success owed to his philosophy in that his growth was not thwarted by the strict dictates of a fixed list of eternal facts. Other martial artists might improve themselves to the standards of a fixed style, but Lee measured himself to the standards of human potential and creation: Style concludes. Man grows. This attitude almost made it impossible for someone as dedicated as Lee to not become such a revolutionary master of his art.
Lee wrote, In the long history of martial arts, the instinct to follow and imitate seems to be inherent in most martial artists, instructors and students alike.
Each man, wrote Lee, belongs to a style which claims to possess truth to the exclusion of all other styles. These styles become institutes with their explanations of the Way, dissecting and isolating the harmony and firmness and gentleness, establishing rhythmic forms as the particular state of their techniques. The consequence, wrote Lee, was to bypass the purpose of martial arts and create flowery forms and artificial techniques that become ritualistically practiced.
Noting that real combat is not fixed and is very much alive, Lee stated that the fancy mess created by ritualizing fighting is nothing but a blind devotion to the systematic uselessness of practicing routines or stunts that lead nowhere.
The philosophy promoted by Lee was repugnant to many people already mired in traditional habits of thought. Angry or not, they could not deny the success of Lee. His understanding of martial arts was too profound for traditional views to keep him back.
The logic of Lees philosophy, which he uneasily labeled jeet kune do (he was cautious of giving his philosophy a title for fear of its crystallization into yet another style), is quite simple: The art of Jeet Kune Do is simply to simplify. The martial artist must ask two questions. 1) What is it that I want to accomplish? 2) What is the quickest, most efficient and effective way to reach my objective?
Lee felt that much of the fancy mess in martial arts wasted time and energy, and that styles restricted action. Styles, which lead to specialization, make a person incapable of handling a true master of martial arts. A kick-boxer would be unable to handle a wrestler who had the kick-boxer on the ground. A wrestler would be helpless against a boxer if the boxer kept the wrestler at arms reach.
Wrote Lee, There is a great temptation to exploit favorite strokes to the neglect of most others. While this may bring initial success, it is unlikely to enable one to gain regular results in the highest-class competition. All too soon ones opponents will find the answer to a limited game; a routine system of defense, for instance, plays into the hands of an observant opponent.
To that end Lee pushed himself to be a master of every form of martial arts, using whatever was useful and discarding whatever was merely ritual. Only a few months before he died, Lee said, I am improving and making new discoveries every day. If you dont you are already crystallized (polarized self) and thats it.
August 14, 2006 at 5:27 pm #16453baguaParticipantHi:
I dont want to be arguementive, but I have a few comments.
It is a great leap of fate to think Bruce Lee was the world’s greatest martial artist, the truth is he did not compete publicly to prove it. According to kick boxing champs he trained with before he got famous, he would not spar with them, only kung fu drills.
Bruce Lee first learned Wing Chun Kung Fu, much of what he taught is Wing Chun. He never learned the whole system, this may have been one reason he needed to seek other methods to deal with problems. From my sources, in the wing chun community they did not think he was extraordinary. It would be like someone only got to Fusions and lesser kan and li, they may need to go elswhere to finish the alchemy.
I admire his persuit for truth and being open to all things. There is a difference between reality and the movie and marketing industry.
bagua
August 14, 2006 at 5:57 pm #16455WudangAlienAlchemistParticipantI would have to agree with snowlion on this topic. There are few martial traditions that teach an evolutionary way of practicing the arts. Bruce Lee did. Also in my experience of the Wing Chun community, those individuals that are not so butt hurt about other styles being effective admire Bruce Lee’s work and speak of him as extraordinary. “Butt Hurt” that is the “our style is the most (or only) effective style syndrome. Also To correct a previous post there are only four forms within the Wing Chun system and Bruce Lee knew them all. He only integrated two into what came to be known as Jeet Kune Do. As far as his Mastery of Wing Chun, I am not sure there are any Wing Tsun Masters here who can properly gauge that point.
On the sparring bit. In truly effective martial arts you cant just spar. Your partners become useless because they have broken bones or worse. This is not a matter of lack of control. Many martial arts folks dont understand the difference between sparing and training hard. Bruce Lee did not teach point fighting.
Just another perspective.August 14, 2006 at 6:03 pm #16457FajinParticipantHi:
I just love the way Bruce Lee incorporates Dao and Zen.
He didn’t look towards the underlying structure of physical movements, which were energetic (qi) movements. Internal martial arts do. So he may have found the pinnacle of martial arts for people who are limited to using no internal energy.
Fajin
August 14, 2006 at 6:37 pm #16459baguaParticipantI just think there is so much fantasy in all this, as in tao alcehmy.
It is well known in the wing chun community Wong Sheng Leung was Bruce Lee’s teacher, Yip Man was an old man at the time. He did not learn all the forms, and the whole system, including wooden dummy, dragon pole and knives when he left to go to USA, he was young and he did it for just a few years, he was not authorized as a teacher or sifu or anyting like that.
JKD has much from wing chun, dummy, many drills, lop sau, etc. Chi Sao, much is there. Read articles by Kick Boxing champ Joe Louis on this topic of sparring.
I dont agree with you about sparring, this is a cop out. Bruce was wiling to spar with his students all the time, I know some of them. But not people like Joe Louis.
I have lots of respect and admiration for bruce lee, but people exagerate too much.
Some people quote tao masters on this site, I know some of them personally and they would be shocked if they new about there life. there quotes are good their life actions not so good.
bagua
August 14, 2006 at 6:47 pm #16461FajinParticipantHi Bagua,
Looks like an interesting discussion.
First of all, JKD training does not utilize wooden dummy’s. He did keep chi sao and another form, I think it was lop sao (2 forms like WudangAlienAlchemist said). He added weight lifting, punching with dumbells, jogging, shadow-kick boxing, and much more. He had principles of economy of motion and developed JKD stance. His JKD was a Zen experience.
The Rinzai school of Japan also stressed strict martial art practice much to developed fierce samurai and karateka and judokai, etc. After he contemplated why he couldn’t beat a Chinese challenger in a fight with traditional gong fu, he sought out other ways of unarmed combat. He researched and researched and to this end he created JKD, which he did not want to give a name but had to distinguish it from the classical mess.
Personally, I think Zhang, Sanfeng did the same as Bruce. Sanfeng had a great knowledge of Shaolin, acupuncture network, and qi flow in general, and was credited with Dragon Prawn Boxing at first which was later refined. A tree that does not bend is most readiest for the axe.
>>Some people quote tao masters on this site, I know some of them personally and they would be shocked if they new about there life. there quotes are good their life actions not so good.<<
*Is it OK if I quote you sometimes, you have taught me so much, I look at you as a master!
Regards,
FajinAugust 14, 2006 at 6:59 pm #16463baguaParticipantHi Faj:
I know his first students, so I have a good idea of what he taught.
First of all, JKD training does not utilize wooden dummy’s. He did keep chi sao and another form, I think it was lop sao (2 forms like WudangAlienAlchemist said). He added weight lifting, punching with dumbells, jogging, shadow-kick boxing, and much more. He had principles of economy of motion and developed JKD stance. His JKD was a Zen experience.
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JKD has dummy training, his successor uses it. Economy of motion is important to his system, stucture is the key to one inch punch.The Rinzai school of Japan also stressed strict martial art practice much to developed fierce samurai and karateka and judokai, etc. After he contemplated why he couldn’t beat a Chinese challenger in a fight with traditional gong fu, he sought out other ways of unarmed combat. He researched and researched and to this end he created JKD, which he did not want to give a name but had to distinguish it from the classical mess.
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One of my zen teachers was authorized in soto and rinzai, i know both.
Japanese are too rigid in their training for me, i like koreans.I think you really mean Brsel Leet was not happy it took to long to defeat an opponent, so he rethought his method. He did not lose that fight.
His teacher was the greatest challender fighter in hong kong, Master Wong did not need to go to other things, he used Wing Chun.Personally, I think Zhang, Sanfeng did the same as Bruce. Sanfeng had a great knowledge of Shaolin, acupuncture network, and qi flow in general, and was credited with Dragon Prawn Boxing at first which was later refined. A tree that does not bend is most readiest for the axe.
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To be honest, I dont know what Zhang knew or did not know, so I cannot really talk about it. There are some who think he in in the family lineage of Zhang Da Ling.>>Some people quote tao masters on this site, I know some of them personally and they would be shocked if they new about there life. there quotes are good their life actions not so good.<<
*Is it OK if I quote you sometimes, you have taught me so much, I look at you as a master!
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NO NO No No No No. thanks for saying that. If we can inspire each other to practice and live the life, that is wonderful.Whatever you are doing on that mountain it sounds wonderful.
bagua
August 14, 2006 at 7:11 pm #16465FajinParticipantHi Bagua,
>>JKD has dummy training, his successor uses it.<>One of my zen teachers was authorized in soto and rinzai, i know both.
Japanese are too rigid in their training for me, i like koreans.<>I think you really mean Brsel Leet was not happy it took to long to defeat an opponent, so he rethought his method. He did not lose that fight.<>NO NO No No No No. thanks for saying that. If we can inspire each other to practice and live the life, that is wonderful.<<*I think it's great you said that. Truly magnificent!
Good-bye for now,
FajinAugust 14, 2006 at 7:55 pm #16467snowlionParticipant*It is a great leap of fate to think Bruce Lee was the world’s greatest martial artist, the truth is he did not compete publicly to prove it. According to kick boxing champs he trained with before he got famous, he would not spar with them, only kung fu drills.*
I believe Bruce Lee without a doubt is considered the greatest martial Artist; he made Gong Fu popular in Western Culture; more people were exposed to him via his movies & later his books including me; reading his meditation thoughts book dared me to try meditation which lead me here today 25 years later. I know many people from the scene back then & they didnt really agree with his approach but said he was the real deal. I’m not going to debate about his competency in his ability’s.
What most have missed is his pursuit for truth and his philosphy writings personally outweigh the rest. He dare to break out of being in the herd and just following.
I believe if he would of lived, he with out a doubt probaly what of pursued Qigong etcetra and would of made that it as popular as he did with Jun Fan Do. I think he would of like the Healing Tao and would admire all it’s particpants for truth in themselves. His Widow said he enjoyed Phiosophy and T’aoist thought as she put it more than all the hype.
It’s to bad, his son was a great person also,…
August 14, 2006 at 10:18 pm #16469WudangAlienAlchemistParticipantI have to second the fact that Bruce Lee did not lose the challenge you spoke of. It took him three minutes and he was winded afterwards. That is why he began stressing physical conditioning. As far as other Wing Tsun Masters good for them, everyone should stick with the practices they love. Bruce Lee changed things to fit himself, which is what we always do in martial arts. No two bodies or philosophy are the same. Do I think Bruce Lee was the greatest fighter ever? I would have to say no, however he had an inquisitive mind and a true heart that I have rarely seen in Masters. Many of his thoughts and practices are very useful, if adapted to the individual. Martial arts is more than becoming a good fighter. There is a spirit and heart that is lacking in almost all schools (at least in the U.S.A). Much of the martial arts in the west was brought back here by military personnel stationed in Asia post war. That is why it is often taught with a soldiers intellect and it is studied by lazy folks who want to have a fantasy of Bruce Lee one or two nights a week. Hum, time for rant to end.
August 15, 2006 at 8:10 am #16471NnonnthParticipant… could you tell more of what you mean by this? Don’t have to name names but what sort of ‘life actions’ are you talking about?
>>Some people quote tao masters on this site, I know some of them personally and they would be shocked if they new about there life. there quotes are good their life actions not so good.<<
NN
August 15, 2006 at 1:22 pm #16473baguaParticipantI prefer not to.
But its my experience to really know someone, you need to see how they treat their spouse, kids, students in the home. Just because one knows or masters a qi gong or theory or method does not mean they live it.
August 15, 2006 at 2:53 pm #16475NnonnthParticipant>>But its my experience to really know someone, you need to see how they treat their spouse, kids, students in the home. Just because one knows or masters a qi gong or theory or method does not mean they live it.<<
I'm just shocked you feel the need to say it. Still, there we go, I haven't met the people you are talking about. If people don't 'show', then they're nothing whatever they say – believe, coming from a magical background, I know all about that! NN
August 15, 2006 at 3:38 pm #16477baguaParticipantAlot of people blindly follow people, glad to hear you dont.
August 16, 2006 at 3:35 am #16479DogParticipantHe was an important symbol in my life. Is there greater fighters out there shure. His student Dan is better. But alot of martial artists had to, and still do go throw Bruce on the path to find them selves.
ps Did you know that both Chuck and Bruce studied with Gene Labell.
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