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‘Without digging deeply and questioning what is being experienced, it can be quite easy to mistakenly interpret reality – yours or anyone else’s.’
I believe this is a breaking point in your reply. It took me YEARS digging and questioning, denying because the ‘reality’ that was offered did not fit my reality at that time. What is ‘reality’? Which scientist can explain to me what ‘reality’ is? What I saw, felt and experienced was way beyond my ability to understand it in the context and phrame I had from this world and this reality at that time.
I do understand what you are saying and I think the main question has to be, how much earth has been developed to take that experience into this reality and use to the benefit of the whole. I think that is the only reference one can make.
And another question is, what serves me, does not necessarily serves you. So who will question that my experience is un-true, and another is. How will you ‘measure’ this? Who’s frame work you will use for that? Is this not highly questionable to offer a frame where everyone needs to fit in to be genuine? All the others are freaks?
My personal standard is easy, how much genuine love is coming out of your eyes and your mouth. Beyond that, I don’t mind much from which tribe you are, which planet you come from, or what language you speak…‘Making that mistake, it is very easy to move into a highly narcissistic worldview – ‘I experienced this, so f___ off.’
Even if people come to this interpretation, mine is right, and yours is not right. What is Pietro doing in this case. Sweeping every not-measurable experience on one pile. Who is narcissistic?
Is it not so, that by making mistakes, and making wrong interpretations, new age or scientific, it helps to grow as a human being. So maybe people need to go through this ‘mistake’ to realize something. So again, who will measure what is needed for one person, and not perse for another.
Thin ice…Nevertheless I hear Pietro and I hear you, and I am always thrilled when things are verified within the scientist context, it makes me happy…
Pietro,
As I think you know, I am an empirical scientist. We empiricists have a very different approach to things that you theoreticians. When I read Michael’s statements, I thought, hmmm, what does he mean by “black hole”? And, as an empiricist, I would ask him to define it and differentiate it from comet etc. As an empiricist, the world and everything in it is my oyster.
On another track, Ken Wilber has tried to integrate the ideas of science and spirituality, qualities and quantities, depths and surfaces etc. His ontology is quite intriguing and exciting and helped get me back into spirituality when I read it 10 years ago. But, his ontology does not give room for some of my shamanistic experiences. And, working this past summer with a colleague who is a Ken Wilber-ite, I found that Wilber’s ontology is not logically consistent in the ecological portion of one of the four quadrants. So, his is an ontology, not the ontology, and I have no problem with that — the tao is too vast for any one form.
Chris
>>the tao is too vast for any one form<<
I am just beginning a blog on magick and one my first post will touch on that.
How helpful it is to understand this! It is a matter of belief systems ultimately having so much to do with experience and the limits we place on it.
I don't know much about Wilber but would love to know anything about the ecological and shamanistic aspects of your own practice, this is becoming a big focus for me.
j
“As an empiricist, the world and everything in it is my oyster.”
Hmmm, I wonder what he means by “oyster”.
“I was merely using language as a cultural tool to express an idea that might help people expand the boundary of their habitual perception.”
The feelings beneath your “rant” do not support this assertion.
You are using words to bamboozle the psyche’s “ability to perceive truth directly without the aid of rational means” (the dicitonary definition of “intuition”), and that is why science has become untrustworthy. It is a form of black magic.
-A
We all speak with a forked tung now and then do we not? YOur right though untill scientist find there heart they will not feel complete. The white nerds with out heart, may be the most dangerous beings on the face of the earth. 🙂
Maybe we need to get the nerds and jocs humping each other, OR we can take our inner joc and inner nerd and have them have sex. I will test this and get back to people.;)
“I believe this is a breaking point in your reply. It took me YEARS digging and questioning, denying because the ‘reality’ that was offered did not fit my reality at that time. What is ‘reality’? Which scientist can explain to me what ‘reality’ is? What I saw, felt and experienced was way beyond my ability to understand it in the context and phrame I had from this world and this reality at that time. ”
Yes, your process of digging and questioning (but not necessarily denying) is exactly what I am referring to Wendy. I do not mean to imply that scientists are the only ones who can validate an experience. In fact (and I thought I had made that point in my second paragraph), for the previously mentioned reasons, scientists will be highly unlikely to validate these types of experiences. That does not mean that we should abandon a genuinely scientific (scientia to know, having knowledge) approach to these types of explorations. To answer your question, (imo) we should all question what’s happening. And I mean this in a genuine sense of inquiry. Your question ‘What is reality’ is a great one. For me, one of the greatest questions that can be asked.
I also do not mean to imply that any experience is ‘untrue’, but that an experience can be misinterpreted, sometimes very easily. A frequent experience that people say they have had is “God talked to me.” Well, how do you know it was God? Especially since many people who have said that have done some pretty horrific things. Now unless God is one hell of a cruel trickster, I think that many who have had a conversation with God experience are likely mistaken as to the source of the voice. This example is an extreme case, but I think makes the point. This is an aside, but when I hear people say that they have had a conversation with God, for me it is akin to saying that they have had a conversation with the unnamed Dao. An impossiblity. That something very useful and meaningful was communicated in a conversation, yes. But, as they have been seriously misinterpreted in the past, I like to ask questions about sources.
And yes, I am in complete agreement with you about the amount of love being generated as the crucial determinant. A spirit of genuine inquiry I believe fits within this context. I’m pretty sure genuine skepticism fits within this context. And I’m mostly sure that cynicism falls outside of this context, which is where a lot of the official debunkers are at right now. Again all imo.
With Love,
MichaelL
Michael you have no idea how I tossed and turned myself inside out, questioned and requestioned over and over…I am my personal inquisitor.
The mind is so full with tricks.You know how I know…
As a student nurse I choose to work in the acute ward of psychiatry. I’ve seen so many things, I met the devil, I met god, I saw a patient tricking me playing a doctor etc etc…
The patient I took as my work case was a very lovely guy who explained to me how the cosmos looked like, on little papers he draw the universe, explaining it with utmost care and great insights. It was my best work case of my entire career as a student… with compliments from his psychiatrists.So I am very very aware of the boundary between sanity and psychosis, that is why it took me soooo long to accept my personal experiences having any genuine truth.
I’ve cut myself into pieces to find my cravings, my desperate needs, my desires, my pains, my hunger, my neediness,…because I knew this attracks and shapes our reality!And after my personal inquisition, after all the cutting, the questioning, the beating, the denial… I looked myself in the eye, did the experiences went away? No, they were still standing there looking at me, waiting for me to accept their existance, a part of my existance, they were a part of me which I tried to cut out of my life because they did not fit into my world. I had to either change my world view or to proceed the denial, denial of my existance.
From our personal damages and pains we attrack people and energies in order to heal us or to break us further apart.
Cynism is just one way to avoid change, sarcasm is another, denial a third. Accepting certain people or energies in our life can be a very healing process, so again who will say what is truthful or meaningful for a person.I’ve seen so much destruction during my work that I took love as the only truth, it is the only possible answer to the madness we create in us, upon us and amongst us.
… I’m now caught in the middle of the process still though, and in my case more than just myself is involved. Alot of what you say reminds of a lady called Susan Carlson, a kundalini expert. Dragon and kundalini are so closely related.
It’s very shamanic too, questioning one’s entire mode of being. They say that a shaman is often not allowed to be passed on spirits or beliefs but must find them for him- or herself to make the refreshment of humanity possible.
Seeing how well you have come out of the process is enouraging! I’ve been thinking about when I tell my story and you will probably get a kick out of it. At the moment I just don’t know the ending and it is all too personal! I’m about to start my own blog and eventually I’ll talk about it on there.
You rock lady! j
Dragons are active on the aether/physical plane, read body/sexual/emotional level, transforming this into earthly magnetic power as well taking the above to a more refined level but then … it is not the end, just a warm up, a nice beginning of the journey into your own under-and upperworld! Dragons are earthbound and somehow recognizable for us to work with. It becomes somewhat more difficult stepping up the stair…this was more mind stretching!
That took more than one reality check 🙂
But if it can give you some encouragment, I feel more alive than ever and is growing still!!I don’t want to talk about that openly, except for those going through a similar process, In that case you can reach me on info monkeytail
healingtaodotbeFrom Friday I will be in the UK for 10 days enjoying Michaels retreat and having a couple before and after days with Chris (voice) and another woman.
Listen carefully you might hear a deep roar coming your way…
Sweet lovely day Jason and big kiss!
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